RADIO INTERVIEW JOBN LAW'S PROGR] V4NE WITH ' HE PRIIE 14INJSTIR
FRIDAY 7 AUGUST 1981
Prime Minister: Happy birthday John.
Laws: Ah, that's very nice of you. Thank you. That's verly..
nice of you I appreciate it.
Prime Minister: Anyway, what are you going to do?
Laws: I'm going to get back on that big motor,. bike that you...
told me not to get on.
Prime Minister: Which one is it this time?
Laws: I didn't buy-that one that we were talking about. I got
hold of a 430 Husquavana.
Prime Minister: Oh, good heavens.
Laws: Great motor bike.
Prime Minister: That's a really exciting machine.
Laws: Yes, that's a fabulous motor bike and there's another
one around, that if ever you get an opportunity to try it you
should. It's a 390 CC Hlusquavana Automatic. And that's
unbelievable it's really a fabulous motor bike. while we're
Into machinery, are you going to buy that little Alfa they
said on the television the other night you were looking out to
buy? Prime Minister: That was during the car strike down here
and I was driving myself and enjoying it. Jt'sa lovely little
car but the agent's got a twin better version which is just
a little bit tougher. So I'm tempted but I don't get a chance
to drive very much, but it's a beautiful machine it really is.
a V6., Io , s very good and it looks as though it'd handle
_ re tt
Prime lHinister: It handles very well and it's got a lot of room
in the front. It's a small trunk but it fits in tall people
very easily.
Laws: t Yes, I haven't looked at them or sat in them, but _ I'l1
take your advice on that as I took your advice on the motor bike
and I did fall off the motor bike Incidentally.
Primne Minister: You fell off!
Laws: Yes I certainly did.
Prime 1Minister: it's very easy to do.
Laws: It's not difficult is it! Well, you've come back to.
some interesting situations in Auostralia.. It seems when you
go away things seem to happen and when yob come back they seem
to happen even more because next week you've got this sumriit.
meeting to decide on the alternatives to wage indexation. Did
you really predict the downfall of indexation?
Prime 14nister: No, I think that probably moved a little faster
than I would have expected. The main thing next week. is-to get.
a broad understanding of the Government's position. We have., got
on the board in terms of
and employment' that*' s rising and real wages have also risen very
substantially over the last 12 months, and so you Rnow we
oughtn't to have to argue the real benefits. of obir policies,, but
we have got to consolidate it and build on it and imake sure it
doesn't get blown away by irrationally stupid or unreasorsabie
strikes or by a few powerful people in One contnunity trying to.
grab too much for theipselves. And, you know, the ACTU want; us
to maintain a centralised nystem of wage fixing, well, you ] mow,
if they want that and are serious about it, and I've got no
reason to doubt it$ then I think the community has a right -to
expect some kind of restraint on claims made outside the
arbitration system.*
Laws: What sort of stand do you expect from the ACTU?
Prime Minister: During the Transport Workers' dispute, I
think they demonstrated and we demonstrated that we could
both work together as Australians, certainly from different
Organisations, but nobody was trying to grandstand, nobody
wa s trying to score points over the other or claim victorias
or defeats; we were trying to solve a problem together on.-the
basis of some agreed principles.-And basically, that worked,
and it was sensible. I can see no reason why we shouldn't
approach matters next week in the same week. We can't solve
things nex: t week, because these are matters which involve -the
ArbtraionCommission, they not only involve the A CU the-Y
involve all their constituent parts~ all the other trade uions.
Laws: What are the alternatives to wage indexation,?
Prime M~ inister: Well, over the time you have a number of
different'situations -you've had an annual national wage case
apart-from other industry cases. thzouqhout. th-e-couxe. of a year
that'Is.. happened, you know1 quite ' frequently during the course of
Australia's history. The common factor has been the reliance
that has always been mnade on a centralised wage f ixdation system,
And if the ACT) say they want to viaintain that, and 1 can
understand their reasons for it because it is that system -that
protects the weaker unions and the weaker people in the coimrnity.
Dxut at the same time, if we are goin) g to maintain arbitratiLon
as we traditionally know it, I think we have cjot to do inox4e
to make sure that unreasonable strikes do not occur, and that
people accept the unbiased verdict, or they-think that we . ought
to be going to collective bargaining and these are legally
en forcea) Ae
I Laws: Yeswell, what's the possibility o ht
Prime Milnister: Well, It would be a very substantial change
from the current situation. I know it would make a lot of
employers nervous and it's not being advocated by the trade.
* uni~ ons. But, I don't want to go into-the discussions next
* week, you know, having stated fixed views. I want to, on
Tuesday when the Government meats, be able to clarify on our
own mind, on the v'arious options that might be available to
Ila# and then discuss these in a plain way first with the
employerst-then with the unions, and then on the Thursday
wehave got discussions with the States also about wages,
but also about where we are going with interest rates.
Laws: Now, tell me is one of the prime objections of these
dciscussions next week to do somrething about the strike
situation as it has ex-isted in the past 12 months in A~ ustralia?
Prime Minister: Yes, of course it 1s..
Lw: Doyo tkhat youax going to have anyl~ Joy there?
. o you think that the unions and the more powerf ul.-and
generally more militant unions, will be ever prepared to
accept the umpire.' s decision?
Prime M~ inister: I think. that they are starting to understaid.
that the communjity is increasingly impatient with unreasonable
strikes. For example, I believe that most unions who are nlow
involved in Conuonwealth m~ ployrnent know that we would be using
the Cormonwalth sessional provisions in the Commonwealth
employment bill which was passed some time ago which. enables;
us to sospend or stand down people who aren't doing the normal
work for which they are paid. A~ nd you k~ now, we started off by
saying that we only wanted to -use this legislation as a
last resort. Well we're getting to the stac when people who
have ignored arbitration, who won't accept the umpire's verdict,
then they go along and do 70 or 80% of their work, they eyxpect
to be paid by government, which is not really by government, itis
by taxpayers, by John Laws, arnd all the people who have
written to you and everyone else, and we have virtually come
to the position where people are going to do this act and.
these powers will be used and people will be suspended f ort: rwithl.
14ow, I1 think already there's starting to be an understanding
In what we say to the -onions, that this* is the position. And
miaybe a glimmerings of a greater degree of responsibility aid
comimonsense as a result,
Laws: We seem to go so close to it so often, there seems to
develop a situation where we almost reach. a crisis point and
the Government appears that it's going to show. A great deal of
strength, and there's talk of deregistration of unions,. there's
talk of massive standouns or whatever it might be,: and then it
seems to œ izz.
Prime Mi1nister: TIhe reason it hasn't is because the unions then
draw back. See, you take the Transport Workers' di spute anal the
-disputes in. Telecom.. Wie were using in the shorthand term the
.* feedback' as it's called, and we had over 2,000 people suspended,
there would ha\' e been about 20,000 people suspended, and thon
the ACTU wanted talks, we ca-me to an arrangement which was
reasonable and people went back to work. without any bans. anm]
limitations so the su) spensions were lifted; -bift the Transport
Workers' Union, we said look we would rather get a declaration
fromn the Arbitration Commission which would either have enabled
us to deregister the Union or part of the Union, or e>: ercisLother
powers on the basis that the Abitration commission has*
Itndicated that the Transport W~ orkers' Union had threatened the
7 7. 17 6.
safety, health or welfare of the community or part of . the
community, and you. know, they were refusing t o d rive milk
trucks and all this sort of thing.
Laws:, But don't you think it will happen again?
Prime Minister: if it happens again we will go to that
position, but they said alright, if we all go back to work.
axe you going to continue with that action; well on the.
basiis that they were prepared to go back to work forthwith
it ' was reasonable enough not to continue with that action.-
Laws: But, what happens if the same situation arises again
and you're forced into. a. position where you have got to make
moves so it.. looks as though there is a possibility of
deregistration of the union and then they go back to work again,
the damage is still done isn't it?
Prime minister: The daynage is still done, but 1. think ou. t o f
it all there's coming a greater understanding of the union.
movem~ ent that the Government will use the power that it has
taken to itself by legislation over the last two or. three
years and if people behave unreasonably towards the wider
community then we will1 if necessary,' use the powers qnickly ancl
-firmly and irrevocably., if the Transport Workers' Union were f
threatening milk supplies to baby health. centres and hospitals
again, I doubt if anyone could persuade us to call the action
off. I think it would be the third tine. * You see, the
legislation was put in place when the Transport Workers' Union. did th'
in Victoria, I think, what, two or three years ago.
Laws: So, in other words, they have had fair warning, they've
had two or three bites at that cherry.
Prime M~ inister: It was put there, because they, you know, with
respect to milk, they beld up milk two or three years aqo and
we didn't have the powers we needed to deal with them.
Tony Street then introduced these additional sections Into
the legislation, we showed that we were quite prepared to
use-those provisions In the dispute of two or three weeks
ago. Laws: Prime inister, I am going to have to leave you
because we are about to encounter the news. But, in summary,
next time you . nay not draw back as quickly as you did this time?
Prime llinister: Next time, if they cut milk supplies, again
keeping it nice and simple, I believe that we would go straight
in and use those provisions and would not draw back from it.
Laws: Thank's very much for your time, it was good to talk
to you.
Prime Minister: Thank you very much.
Laws: Goodbye.
Prime 1linister of. Australia, Malcolm Fraser.