73292k PRIME MINI T ZR
E. 6 PROOF ONLY
TRANSCRIPT OF PRESS CONFERENCE, ARAL SADOR BEACH HOTEL, NASSAU
16 OCTOBER 1995
JOUZZALIMT Mir Hawks, you were talking on the BB-C only
77fZ~ cnaye ago about wide spread ~ adatory rianctions.
Po you feel now you have altered aheada bit-on that?
PY.: Of courso not, : 1 wish you would be fair enough when
y'ou are talking about the position of myself and the Government
to look ot tho whole statement and series of statuuentA we've
mada about ou2 position on this issue and how we would be
apprvchlng the queation ' at the Commonwealth Heads of
Gove;: ment. a~ t all points we have mado it dlear that oA course
we w~ ould be talking about the queat-orxa of manctiona and
urging the Comimonwealth to prepare At-tsef for the taking
of sanctions. And they would be widespread sanctions. We
madG it quite clear from the time of the 19 August when the
Ccbinet first considered thim question in some detail, that
we would ' ba talking about a graduated step-; by-atep process.
The words that were used At the time were repeated last
month by Bill Hoyden in the United 14ations, That what we
went to oaen is a astuation we possibly can where
no oanctions at'lall are necessary. ! That the two prong
procena that we will be putting to the Commonwealth here
w'ill bo to look et the process of ednctions, what is available
to be applioda and what should be applied if the approach
of sooinS dicussion and dia-logue Is not affective. and
we will putting in some dotail starting tomorrow and
throur,; tho diacuosion on Thurdday ind Friday the approach
of tho Goverr~. mnt which wo have discussed am now broe4lyp
with a number of our colleaguea in he Commonwealth which
ooa'o hero Qiro the series of sanctions increasing in intensity
Whiich is tnhould be preporod an a Coiutonwealth to inatituto
wh. ich wo an Auctralia will be prepard to be aamociated with,
if t-ho process that we are asking 6f looking for dialogue
with 3outh Africai does not produce ' positive results.. Now.
that hao been cloarly our position * rem the beginning-in all
the dimorions, both orally'and by , letter with our aeolloagus
in tho Cou~ onwa~ th, that's the posljtion we have been putting
u-4 we have been putting hore.
And to take ona line of something "~ at has been said
in the BBC interview is a totally uqf air representation
o what we have consistently been s4q ing from Auguat until
now, and we will continue to put hie~ e in this confazence.
J0URNALIST: Shouldn't you have sail that in the BBC interv4. w?
PH: NOU~ what I said in the BBC interview w4a relevant
to the context 1^ -which Ift was bein~ said. Well you are likely
to have a position where Mrs Thatche~ would be arguing
that that, possibility of sanctions a ould not be contemplated.
Now r am concerned to say th~ n and no, that of course
we should be talking about widespread economic oantions.
What we will be talking about here, will be to look at the
whole apectrwn of time and intensitjIof sanctions. And there
is no doubt that in this discussion re will be saying that
if the processes of dialogue that we: will seek to create
don't work, if possibly a first trandckof sanctions don't
work thon we have got to be looking right through the
spect: m to wide-spread sanctions an~ uving the language
oj tho Unite. Naticns.. 1Tt would be ap ropriate to talk
about tho possibilty at the end of sp~ eac trtlz. 97tiue
of mandatorry. uzv*_ 4az1 oanctione. So of couroo, one hae
bee-talking about that L& ut at all points A-have been oaying
where we have had the opportunity ofl detailing the position
of the Government; dut we are looking at a stey by step process,
I would hope that out of the dacision6. we can get here
that we would be able to reach a position where the regime
in South Africa would oee that the Cormosnwealth having
lookec at this whole spectrum, having ontemplated
a serias of steps leading to the poos ~ bility that the end
if nothing nlse would work of mandatoy sanctions through
the United Nmtion~, 4-hat the very facp of spelling out our
rct~.. ess to contemplate that sort of approach could load
to a position where you did not have to use the sanction
procoos at all, that they would respono to the indication
that wpwere prepared to go that route'and underatand themselves
that i. makes much more sense in terms of some of the interests
that they are seeking to protect, to start to talk and to
chaingo. JOURlNALIST: Sir, 1I346 t~ your hope that that approach could
be E5 d comPromiaeA both Mrs ThatcheV and tho Black
Africans ivhuCa Ac& Qpf t
PHt: It~ o not only my hope, its the hope of the Black Africans.
live had tho opportunity of talking nc'~ e Uith President
3aunda. " rhcd a long talk with him laot nigjht. And he is
onca with ma in thic approach in say4. ng 00 coure
they woulC mnch prefeor a situation whoro tha= 0 is no need
for sazict-tono, because it should be rhmrd, particulary
in ta~ s os' tho most effective of aan,,, ionG th at they are
ao likely Siven the reaction of South Africa to have a & V
002; fct on the front lino states. And 6~ o ixnnet. h Rou~ nda apeacing
with Xbaliove great authority, for th4 African Statat and
aticm, 1=' rY the F'ront Lines States is sayping yea # 0hrwould
Pa!= a nitumtion whore while v4 talk, about, as wte must
do, an~ d Vvrk. ado cle sr ate. ail timeof, ie must talk about sanctions#
prGoaG oursolvae for ! implementing the~ t.-
We should be at th(-oesme time suaying,,. wall look, here are
the, atepo that w9 & aght to be taken* should address ourselves
to the prooeves of change. We shou1 talk cabout'whether, as
I Iva saidtho creation of 6group of Em~. neht people would be
a oonsible part of trying to e$ tablis that dialogue. And
Kuanda agrees. with that.
JOURNALIST: Mr Hawks, how L~ r hLave have thoyc got before you
Introduo's anctions? b%# d M ho
PLA: I am here as the Head of~ the Aust1ralian Delegation.
I means for bettor or for worse I'm nit making the decision.
for the Commonwealth. But we would be! suggesting to the
Commonwealth and in the discussions, lae as* what comes out.
But let me make this observation, that I think that we haven't
got unlimited time. That I think we ought to be talking
aiout, ait least in regard to a first range of oanctionq, the
pscibility cf saying if by approxima ' ely the and of thic
ya7or ear~ ly next year,. which is not ; very longq away, that
J1 ftera n~ sal9t aigns of pooitive responsoaf than we ought
to be talkinV about implementing action which could embrace
a lot og what -has already been done by a number of nations#
including nations of the Commonwealth..
jo M. 2ALIST: Specifically, what Mr Hawke?
Woll 1 think that it ia fair that I put these details to the
rmeoting. But let me may this. The concept of what
putting ia that it amoms to me, ' that you-would look
at oatagories of poooible sanctions, i~ icreasing in
evrity, and also may Z say, increasing in -of ' their possible
izpact upon the 6,, 04 S tates. Ahid one would hope that
if it waD under toj prPr dess to move in stags like that
that you would iacrease the capacity to put preeaure upon
south Agrica to be prepared to talk. Now, thereforep to what
wao to ba included in those categories', if thiG sort of approach
rcoco mnds'itzelf to the Commonwealth, ' ic3 a matter for discussion.
I mean ome people will have different views & am to what things
should be included at various stages. But I & Ge it as important
to try and particularly get Brit~ ln to understand that we are not
hera wiahrng to talk about sanctions 2or the neke of'sanctions,
bat all of us, including the Front Lioe Statoo. iD Africa would
rraa; i progar a situation where we can got dialo( gUeo A~ nd 12
by talShing about that sort of approach, it Incrafefa our
capiett' t: o get th~ t sort of understand1ing s; MO& K~ WLSA
so ig more likely & ro we to be able to get comon
docimion out of the Commonwealth Meetñ Irg.
JOMALIOT: Mr Hawke# tho South African Government has
% wnon 55durate Government.
124 ~ ooIt Have you got any real hope that they will cowe
a gue with some group set up by the Commonwealth?
PH: Well1, let me say thin, that I think there 10~ Ovidance
of vary condiderable concern within So~ th Africa at the
level of busineunj. I mo& n I have had the opportunity of
talkinVj with President 74undat who went into considerable
detail with me of the meeting between the representatives
of$ the South African bucineos community, and the ANC
which he facilitud in Lusaka. And it~ is quite clear that
those powerful elements within South Africa have
recognised the increasing strength of world opinion and
of a patpriebnesu to mo~ e from rhetori6 to action. And so
the climate for receptivity now is, I think, greater
than it has been before. So I th$. nk when you have
the position that the Black African St~ tes themselves
are s~ aying that they see merit in this proposal for trying
to get dialogue, rather then immediately moving into
sanctions then that of itself should v* ry substantially
form our decision.
JOURNA~ LXSTs Are you still aiming for a joint Commonwealth
poeltion to be taken to the United Nations* Mr Hawks, or
io that no longer relevant.
PM: Not. you have got the complication.. here. Let me go one
step back0 o believe obviously that whatever comes out
of the Commonwanlth should be reported to the United
Nation~ g. The quostion of whether in a4 ixmediato aense
you woula be able to seek a United Nations replication
o a Commontwealth decision could to some extent, depend upon
what 00asures were included at the first stage of sanctions,
Tn other words, ig you could got a position where the
Commonwcalth could come to a unaminous agreement, including
the position of the United Kingdom, as a first stage. that
could include a ban on the export of oil and petroleum products
becausG the United Kingdom currently has that position. So
to got that at the'first stage of the Commronwealth would be
important. But if you sought immediately to taka that
to th United Nations, Britain would be in a position perhaps 1Aft.
while Wc~ cou ld agree to it in the Commonwealth as part
of a packa~ ge, they wouldn't agree to it univarsally, because
it would have a different impact. So I'm making a point
yea, we want to discuss here what should be the relationship
between tho Comonwealth and the United Nationas, but that
it im to voine extent complicated -by the factor to which I refer.
J0UM1ALIST4. Mrs Thatcher refers to economic nanctions, and.
Me E she refers to economic boycotts and trade boycotts
What exactly do you understand she means when she talks about
tho Canations?.
P9~: I h.-ven't spoken to hort yet. I hope to. I moan outside
the actuail context of the meeting, the formal meeting, I
think thia io scmantics really.
zmean I don't believe that as far as we are concerned that
# t tuxne on a word. I mean where you are talking about
cmictions -o boycott you are meaning that thb nation
concerned, that ia the nation acting against South Africa
would take a decioion to deny a particular service or camnodity.
1.4 you want to call that a sanction or a boycott I dont
th~. nh it turne on a word.
JOURNALIST: Would-you be proposing 4s a first stage, someth. ing
along the lines Mr Ramphal put for sanctions?
PM: Well, You have got this alternative. You can say you can
look at range of actions that have been taken by a number of
countris that are there ini-place and say well lotsa apply that as
a firat otage. Or you could seek just the application of the
two criteria of relevantly minor impact upon the Front
Line tltatee as determined in what should go in the first
package. And it won't necessarily produce exactly the same
combinat~ on-oa elements. I'm going into tho diacussion
on tho ba1oia of a concept. Here is the concept and being open
as to what the elements of the firat staige should be. Rib+
taying from Australia's point of view# that we are prepared
to go along with a consensus position on the anouption that
that represents a dotermination by ' the Commonwealth to
increase -the pressure upon SoirW Africa and in. the hope,
& 3 1 aaylthat the other avenue which we refer would produce
a~ prepardt-55 on the part of the regime to talk. And that's
not just to talk with the Commonwealth, but to talk with
the elements within South Africa that have to be:. talked with if
you are going to more'to chanye. ftGq
JOUNALIST: Do you see your role as ~ a ' ridge between BrittO n
anM Uie r-est of the Commonwealth?
M~ Personally?
J0O33VALIST: You.
Inis w~ ell, I don't want to elevate my role, but it has
boon put to us by a number thAt Australia, and Canada was
mentioned as well~ have a particular oportunity to perm91
JOUMlALIST: I was wondering based on your discussions so far,
you = feel that BritL~ n is going to be isolated at this
Conference on sanctions?*
mzh thñ ! k Ak;, thp right way of putting it La this.
Thar-ciktaryona lookin4~ i~ aiistically underatando that LZ~ you
take 1% the atatemsnto thatI have been mada by tho time tzo got here 6
ortan im in a position different aubotantiolly 2rom tho
cot of the people. But the very interosting thing that
has~ emerged from my diacuosions with a range oE dol. egates,
including, as I say4nenntth 1Kaunda, is that there is no
daaI re.: to aay1 400M5. Brit-vs haz made ite deciaion,. ihere..
im no po-. nt in talking, With them, Lotsn now izolate them.
Rather the view is lots, by the procesuof discussion.
av4 dobate coo if we can bring Brnt to a ponition of
cc-rsmnt, so it now remtins to be seen whether thoso
17rocease can been ouucesoful.
jOUl~ NALIST: D'ou'thitik they will be? Are you confident?
PN. Woii I thihk ñ t! 0 just too early to say, I haven't had the
opportunity vsC talkingO,', ra Thatchar, but what I can
say . romm own point of view is that I will be doing all
that I can, and I think I will be helped by a number
of people I've refervtd to my long ta-lks alrbady with
Mr Mulroney, Mr Gandhi is coming to see me tonight after
the dinner and we will be talking about the same issue
obviously. So I think that there are a number of us who
are going to be trying very hard'. So let's hope.
JOUPIALZ ST a On Mr Gandhi# 24r Hawke$ Hte said in his speech today
tha MVtoria regime was impervious to reason and that
the N~ assau CHOGM must demand comprehensive and mandatory sanctions,
the queation cannot be deferred. Do you think that given4tie
positioi~ n. hand, and say Mrs Thatcher's position on the
other, that~ ill make some common position very-very difficult?
PM: wall It would.'. bb. fobliah of me to say thcmt we area
not Zaced with a difficult task* of course we are. But I 9Av'
had 4~ t opportunity of tall~ ng with Mr Gandhi already. And as I
roay 7 nm going to bQ talking with him again *+ grcIAR
tonight a2toz the dinner. And I know that he wants to
achiave m position where BkitAin can be associated
with action, co he has * a4Z n hope. And I really
don't know in a canoe nhItay about that, because the
positio~ is protty stark in terms of statements that have
alrea Nadep but I think that one element that is important
. isth is~. Clearly Britc-. n is concerned about the level of its economic
stake in SoUWh. A~ rica and its legitimate for them to have it in'
mind. 1 thihk that it will be important for. Mrs Thatcher
to -ndrstand really two things . concerning Brithi-nds
econcmic interacts in South-Africa. Firstly,,& nd I cain say this
2ttengthazzby the diacussi6na I1 have . had" rTesident
thet it is important for the future of a now
* and just OOCJiety j. 64A Aer. i4 that the economic capadity t
ghou-" d ba retaiined. K4Snda recognises thise ' they don't want 13ft
the procneo o! political d. mancipation sociated with
econemic aut and diagpetation of'resourost-that
1i3 raprecented by accumulated capital and expertia thereai
Now L! f X4r Thatcher can underotand that this in the position
o: 2 tho 13c Africans then I think that -' is important
and ma" el to change her thinking. And of courve, asaociated
with that point which I may add to it, would mean that in the
avenuz oO? diocuae~ on ~. at we are talking about by thin 2? anal
of LVminent ? eople, one of the things that we would be wanting,
or that X have in mind that lit wow be weanting, ouch a group
o t{ al king about would be precisely thim iscue. To try and
aice htrv. in'.-he Pr~ ocesses of political change 6f evolution
to V_ no ' Ir an6 juct South African society with universal
sufferaige, 0~ die cuss with the exictin regima what would be
involved to ensure that the economic ca city was maintainod.
HNow if Mrs Thatcher, as I say# can understand that that
is what we and Zlack Africans are about, it may change her
thinking. And the cecond point ' is that I think that she must
underotand that in that sort of context that I Am talking
about it in infinitely more likely that the Dintl aX. interest.
that do @~ rot are more likely to be maintained Via~ Lb1.
than in a pooition where there is no dialogue, there
is no process of peaceful evolution, but at some stage
the explosion. Now I have the feeling that those or* such
ccupbllingly logical and correct arguments that you
must have some chance of getting through.
JOURMALITt Prime Minister, in your consideration and
F. 0c abou t this Panel~ oaf Eminent People has the
name cd. M~ erb TVUdeau been mooted at all?
PH4I NC Do far.
JOURNALISTt or Kaunda himself?
P. M: No. But I think you will appreciate, I don'It w~ 4Us
want-to Vo too tar into the question of the names.* Becauce I
think~ bc ve thought through siome namea and we will be
pzpearod when asked to say well here arc some that wo have
thouc'ht about. But I wov be saying that there io the
PanVi That it should be, but those sort of people.
But Trudeau is not one of them?.
vio, ton tha-, t list I bO it wasn't an exhaustive lihut.
I a therefore not sayin5 well no Trudeau, I am simply
oaying that 16 was rather a short list, illustrative if you
JOURDIALIST: How many names?
PX: Nell there were about seven or so on this liat. But I
don' want * you to got carried away by those names on that
1ict; Z mean its tile concpt that is important. And aa far as
iwstralia La concerned w qu ite 4lexible Wotthe & pemkeg
sense and2 I'm getting a fair bit positive reactio A~ Bw
aro qu~! te open to talk about composition.
JOORNALST: How important will that be?
PM: Z'-thinh very important, because what emerged in the
diecon with Sonny and myself iS that, and others
thQt ho has obviously talked to as well. but I can only
rwpoa~; Gbout my awn. conversation, is thmt we will, I think
ce to ratct telking about South Africa, the later part of
tcorr=! O Goom'ion. And then jo in to having a fa~ irly
oubotantial part of Friday on it. Then 1 think the idea
Ia tl~ at we wou~ ld cut ofZ the discussion by about mid afternoon
on Friday to that thiey could otart tho econortic i ta of
the nd a. Then we would take the discuss ion of"~ oint ttkoA
reached then into the retreat.
Ani! 1 would hope that we would have got far e0 h along
the track' in expocing the i@ siuss in the formay then
to m~ oan that once we got to the retreat we would have
tho opportunity of trying to thrash out the basisi of
the comon ground. And ao therefore the answer to.
% Sour question is that I think the retreat in dvery importantpare.
JOURNALIST: Mr Hawks, just to get a better idea of the time
scale involved in this graduated process# to it that the
first range might be brought iftto place at the end of
thio year, or early next year. If nothing happens as
a rosult of that when do you then look at the second step?
PM: Woll we haven't got a time table on that* ao it would
be preumpta= 3u, and in a sense counter productive for
Auatral2ia to come along to this meeting and say look here is
the exa~ ct tima table, here's each element of the category,
therb 5. t 13. Rather, what I've tried to do is to have
a conce~ pt which we believe makes sense, ;-, hich matches
tho roaitieao og the expectations of the Black African
sltatG3 which masts the roality that we have 6%
job oO perouauion to do with 3ritAl. n, and say well
hore is the concept which include, the graduated steps.
Az, far as we have gone in to say well we think
obviouhly in terms of applying the first category, well you
can't be sa~ ying twelve months down the track, you have got
to be talk-ing about some time in the relevanthnear future.
t1, d cay il you han't got a pos itive responee from
South Africa by a relatively new time in the future
then Category I ought to ritart. Now how the meeting would,
if it responds to this broad concept, how it would want
to ut a timetable on the stages, is really a matter
that we sho( bld discuss together. I haven't presumed to
say well, in three months, stage two# three months stage
JO= NALIST': Would the actions in Category one be mandatory ce
PM: ' dell you have got to underatand that when you use the
word mandatory, you really are using the language of the United
Vations, o9 Chapter 7 of the United Nations. It's. not relevant
to tah! ii C onwea th Ljon, because if we roach the"~
pos~. ton of conaenou Bwf at we aretlkn outhr
by delinition all o2 them will apptly them. So I mean the
cue"' I-I ce mandatory within the. Commonwealth doein't apply
N wo reach ai position of consensus of thio io what should
bo done,*, Qhen all the Commonwealth curiswould gjo back
and reflect by their own actions the decision which
they have made here.
JOURMILIST: It would mean nothing without Brita;. n would
? Mt Obviously, its basically importantAto get B t-aim involved
don't believe from the view live got ' roundihc is
pretty broad range of discussions, I don't believe that the
CoiiMOnWealth would say well in the absence of Britoon the
rest of us do nothing. or do not seek to process this matter
further. But as you have heiard--from all I have said to
this point everyone recognises the importance or
maximising effectiveness of having Britpin in the 00kn
JOURNLM: What would the conlsequences be for Britai'n
do you M I nk of it doesn't go along with the consensus
view of the Commonwealth. What would her standing be, her
influanco on Commonwealth nations?
PH4: 1 don't think it is helpful to go to that hyp0Wz*. ical.
' 16m oanm I not just trying to dodge it because I'Im operating
on ths basis now that all my best endeavours and aaaociations
wit.% a number of my colleagues io going to be to try to
prou& ade themn to be there and I mean if I talk about,
upeculate about, what p if she doeshl-well I don't think
it ir helpful9 I mean I am more than' prepared to talk
about ' that in the unhappy eventikali'klt that ite.
got to that position. But I would rather leave it till
then to talk about it.
JOURNALIS~: Putting it a bit differently, if this Meeting
cioebn3n'cme up with a meaningfulV. measure on this inLsue,
do you-thiz* -there is any point in the Comonwealth
continuing. Would you become jaundicadabout the the Commonwealth?
PM4: Vell this matter is of such importance to us and clearly
to the rest of the Commonwealth that one would have to
ray that it you wer It able to get an effec. i~ o. va decision
then it would have to affect you judgement yes but Z really
don't want to go too far down in that because it really4. he
same vuet~ tion in another way. But I repeat1 if at the ond
of thio againot my most fervent hopes, . we are in that pomition
I am cquitG prapared to throw that matter around in dimcuosi6n.
with you then, but I don't think it is helpful to do it now..
JOURM'GIST: Which leaders have put it to you th~ t thay sea
Aut( PD' role as an intermediaty nr br18fjw?
VM: 1ll Sonny has spoken to me, Bofiny awphal Mwe~ ontionedjin tlue
termm and in rdincussions wit-% 3rian A( ulronay he kIsd in~ Lcate4
that thats been put to him, thhthatlla our rolab.-= n rta~ nnly
in the discunaions with Xanfda sees our role ans important.
JOURNALISTt You don't feel that that puts pressuro
on you Chat you could do without?
PMs.' llm quite relaxed about it. I meanas you know, long
before I've been in the Parliament, both within Australia
and internationally with the ILO Ms Lo, 4e ,4c.^, Mepa 4# AQj~
d 04I'm more than happy IF people think that we can
play a particular role here to do it. From all the questions
you have been putting, I think you realise the importance of it.
If Australia can do somethingwell.
JOURNALISTs Having arrived here Mn Hawks and started
talking to people do you think its a more important
meeting than maybe you envisaged a couple of weeks ago?
PM: go I don' t think so, erhaps it dramatises it a bit
more in your mind when you kmtN. 49Pu oA,. j i word. ow aw
the range of leaders, the Gandhi's Mulroney' 6,. Xaunda's
your Mahatir's. 1hen you are talking with them and hear
and the intnmity of their positions and the pre-eminenoe
which they attach to it., L perhaps dramatises it for
you, But I don't think it adds to my understanding of how
7. knew they thought about it really.