EMARGO-7. 00 pm K
CIIRCK AGAINST DELIIVERY
IVNTIEIRVRI ETW HE PRIME l
1E~ RYA D SONEON: PTA' CURREN AFFAIV. MONDAY. 28,.. OCTOBEK: 194
STONEt rm Hiit therekqi vde-p~~ e~ n4tti
cutr ie n ' coomigmesi nd-tht -you-donutsem d-kovhd
to:-handle, It. Nwiodoy epz tht feeling?
PRIM-MINI$=%: is tethth puioarbevildered
tDru amibinerg . o -fo , thiinngdq., u. sbturti a. vliosw eI'n. du-n thtri ywInA-y,*, v. e-y6 . cguturytl. ik$ 4a. fe~ n..~ ov4ary
STONE: Yes, but how do we know? We have been told that things are
bad overseas but surely Australians only care about what is happening
here and the-trust that they have in their own leadership?
PIRIME MINISTER: I don't agree that all Australians oxily worry about.
whnt goes on at home. I think more and more Australians realise
that what happens in Australia must be affected alsoby -what happens
in other countries.
STONE: Yes, but again we don't know what the conditions are there;,
we don't know how they are handling the situation over there.
We do know that unemployment i8 rising here and inflation is rising
here, and so far the Government has not seemed to, offer any deifinite
solution. PRIMIE MINISTER: There is no simple solution. If there was, obviously
we would have adopted it. But people do have a fair idea what goes on
in America or B~ ritain or Western Europe or lIn Japan and thdy know
that Inflation is worse in Japan or in Britain than it Is here and
they know that unemployment is worse in all three areas, than it is
here.,
STONE: Yes, I started off by saying that it was a feeling but then
are you willing to concede that there is reasonable grouid for
assuming that the situation is at least sonmvwhat messy and that our
leadership is In some doubt about how to handle it?
P'RIME MINISTER: Yes, inevitably. As I say, there is no simple, pasy,
popular solution and that is the experience of people in government in
the three areas that. 1 have mentioned and in all the comparable countrie-S
that you can i,:. ention.' Leadership in politics; is under. challenge
everywhere in the weste-rn world.
STONE: Going back to your leadership, it seems that every poll is now
showing a very sharp drop in popularity and a very -sharp rise in the
number of people dissatisfied with what you are'doing. How does that.
affect you?
PRIMIE MINISMTR. I notice that the papers this morning said that I was
more popular than myy competitors, so we are all dropping. And I don't
thing you will find a poll in any western country where the head of
government is popular, has a popular majority, I am better than my
competitors, that is all that I can say at the moment.
STO( NE: But that's cold comfort.
P'URE MINISTER: Mty word ' it Is.
STONE: Particularly for a Prime N. inister w~ o is I wouldn't say
0 gotistict. l, but certainly has a great deal of s~ lf-conrid ence, you
called yourself the beat Foreign Minister, one of the great Prime
Ministers. H-ow does this make you feel to 8ay Dohwt 1iha an
per cent of the people t0hink you are doing a good job?
' HIMLE MINISTER: Well, to be precise, I've said I waa the hest
Foreign Minister for 20 years I was mentioning since Evatt.
I mean let's get it, precise.
STONE: O. K. But isn't it, in a way a personal tragedy for you thoti
ft man3 who doea exude so much self-zonfidence has not been able to
instill that kind of confidence into the public'?
PP-114E MINIS'MR: Yes, yen. I think this is disappointing, frustratin i
of courfse it in but I must say the fate of everybody el: e in evafrq
western country# in every webtern democracy, the current leader cop
it. the same way.
STONE: But perhaps for different reasonb. Let's just take again yol
case apecifically. There does seem to be a gap between what. you
promised in the wayv of' leadership * and what you're delivering. . Dir-iL1
-the (-lection periods we heard mainly about Gough. Whitlam " You e~ qn
depend on him." Now we seem to be hearing only about the four (; In
Cairns, Crean,. Came-ron find Caucus sending -as different messageI3,
You've tended -to fade into the background.
I'RI114T M INI. STER: Well, can Lyou be precise ( in any one of those?) 1n Yf-I
my Govvrnment has achieved a very great, des. l indeed. 11-18 achieved
more in the 23 months than I think our predecessors did in most
in 2: 3 years; t. hat we have done a very grc-al deal. But the vo~~.
Aituation throughout the western world is more bewildering than it
h a. s heen for over 410 years.
ST( JNE: But I'm on a different point now, I'm even willing to conct
ihait your Government. 4has aeh~ eved a great deel. We're ta) ing.:, ahnul
image now and the image that. comes across, I think, to the public " is
that we're hearing an awful lot about D~ r Cairns1 an awful lot b
Mr Cameron? an awful lot, about Caucus, we see them on tele vision
the press, ' we're seeing less and less of you.
PRI 1F. M4 NTSUE~ R You're seeing me now,
STO"': Yea we are. it's beenl a long ti me.
TPR !\ 11NI1J T2 I': don't remember when youl~ me.
STONE: Wpll I think the invitation we won't go into those si~-
thiriga. 4,1 he fact is, wouldn't you say, just looking your nc-ws
every inorning nd looking at, your television met, that. we do 6pe fin W
lot of D~ r Cuirns. and Mr f. ameron, for example.
11RIMF. IINISTERi: Quite propc-:' ly, quite Properly.
STONE: But I mean are you happy....
PRIME MINIST'ER: I mean, you're talking in quite gent-ra~ ispi terms,
You say Cal . cus and Connor atnd LCreon and Ctimeron anid ' Caiirns. 1 mean,
What precisely do you mean? I meant let's come to,..
STONE-: I'm talking about the physical number oftie..
FIRMS MITNILSrPR.: Yes.
-3-
STONE: that people like Dr Cairns and Mr Catoeron, and I mervtio]
those two specifically, show up on television, ohow up in the newspaj~ O-vC
saying something about the econamy.
PRIME MINISV1EU: Every Tuesday t. hat I'm in-Canberr, I give a press
c onference; that Is, everybdy in the Parliamentary Press Gallery
can ak me questions once a week. Now. it'. s true that I can' t, obviox
gi-ve much other time for press conferences, but I do, Imn thie first
head of' government-in Australia to regularly have a pressa conference,
STONE: ' Well, just to sum it up at thst, particular issue.-Are you
happy to see some of your senior Ministers appear on television a~ ndthe
press as often as they do giving various opinions about what migl
or might not happen in the economy?
PRIME MINISTER: I want my colleagues to Ibe known to the pub I ic I. ha i
ture. I think sometimes they'll respond to requests for kerbside
opinions too readily and I als0 think that this is played up in ikea,
which obscures the public knowledge or understanidlng of how govcrnmer
must opera-te.
STONE: Can I bring up a persistent ruimour? I'm not trying to preteriathat
it's credible, hut it is a rumour that has exis~ e&: that the
reason why Pr Cairns has emerged In such prominence is that you d6n' 1
r-eally care that much, or aren't really thay interested in economic
matters. PRIME MINISTER: I suppose I would have discussions on economic mattef
at least twice a week with academica or officia~ s or emoployee bodies
businessmen: at least vice a week. Many times it would be more ofitc--v
than that. I would be discussing economic matters more than kny O'tHIEV'
matters constantly.
STONE; This rumour, I might say has been used to explain away youir
number of overseas visits. It has been suggested that. you feel T'erscOstamore
cotnfortabl'e as a statesman dealing in Foreign AffairA than youeW0o
an a politician wrestling with domestic matters.
PHIMP, M'INISTIER. I have to make anybd aas IrmVa .-aste
trips overseas. Now th-ere again, can we lie precise about. the I
there have been four times when I have been away a fortnight onti I
haven't been away longer than a fortnighit and which of thos
I aakt do you think the Prime MiniAter shoult'ts have uildertak~ en?
Now, I know this is -said a very great deal, sct let me be, prE'cise.
The-. was las-t August meeting of the Commonwealth Heiids of GOovc-rnmc& r-.#
in Ca~~ taa. I went to Mexico, New York# Wshingi,.--non the way. Doea
' anyboely say that Austtalia should not have been represented at a
Commnonwee.>' Hesals Qf Government meeting? Then, in October, the-re vas
return visit, ., nly the second viait, of the Japanese/ Australlian
Ministerial Ieeting. Five Japanese Ministers came down to Australia
the end of ' 72. It wan turn to reciprocate five of us wenrt; I
the Poreign Minister still. Does anybody say that we shouldn't., am
Government, ha-ve shown our irit& c. s' in maintaining close relatic-un
Japan? STONE: I don't think...
PRIME MINISTIER: And I went next door to China, in ttit. i Same visit. T) i aLI
went right round South-1East. Asia. Does anyone say onie shouldn'tI. gox
That wam February. Then a couple of weoeks ago I went to the United
Nations and I called on the new President and the re-elected Prime
Mfinister of' Canada.
STONE: I don'-t think anybody tx saying'that' taking indi-vidual ,,. trVils,
that* they're needless,
FUTIfE mixiBTEut Tea.
STOiE: Btit eriuyi qesinfpto'ia V64uldn'ty1oUu p
that'' there: are. oauy.. eople#.-Ineluzdlug people. iu . your ovn Caucus,_.. ia
th-itik that: lii hatd.~ me thePrim Hlinisatr! uw firtpae o
4, PRIME~ MIUISTER:; -No I don' t belie'~ e tAt: 6t oIl don't ccep* t... th
I reject it. I believe -it Viould& have been the . vrong thing-for. AxistreL(
not to be at, the Commonwealth meeting; for Australia not to go to
It. would lie the wrong thing not to go to the lnit-ed flat-ions. It, woiloLbe
the wrong thing not to go to South-East Asia. Those were my dutieq-
I did them, and I think I did. thom quite satisfactorily.
STONE: There have been 10. trips in less -than 2 yeakrs,
PHlIHE MlNIJ8TER; Yes. Wtell yes, that includes for instance, three ' to,
New Zealanft: Norman Kirk's funeral, the Commonweulth Games apd. the f'vlS
* Meeti) Ag after we hec'ame Primne Ministeris that is each two days. 01'
course you can get that sort of thing. I go for a long weeend to
Indonesia and spend it with President Sultarto: that.' s a fow--th trip.
Now let's he reasonable. These are very 8hort trips.
STon: I'm trying to be...
P111HE* MINIISTERat I've mentioned the four substantial. onles. -They vach
tcook a fortnight.
STONE: I'm trying to be reasonable and explain what I thi nX pe opl e
feel. PR IME 1411N11TER: Well I'm very happy to have the opportunity to givct
point of view to you.
STONE: I mean you happened to be out of the couatry when there wiim
sh'. rt-lived, very short-lived, very erroneous run on building , ocietic?.
Dti f. you think poople would have felt more comfortable then with t1&, V
Fri,_. ister In control?
PRIt E A1' INER: Nhot at all, not at all. My M1inisters cind 1' remier i
killed thb.. un in a day. It was started off by the-Q> eenptland TeL(-Y
STONE: Yes. You're say~ ing that It was started off biy the Qupenslat-'
Treaisurer. What was thi, ' nt
PRIME MINISTiER; In -aun, e syeasi, d. H e made some injud~ icikI
remark. But that was killed in a It. didn't need wry irntervvritionfc
My Ministers coped with it very adequately and promptly & tid sc did
Don Dunslan in Adelaide.
SrO~ N~ t Ye's. Whut do you think you accomplish on-theae trips? For
inst-ance, we heard that Dr ' Kissinger issid, perhaps to a member of tlie$
Australian party, that the only time he'd ever visit. Autralia ja if"
was on the way to somewhere and the only plaoc hie could think of vouiGlt
be the South Pole. Now. obviously he's not treating us very
if he does irake remarks like that.
PRIKE MINISTER-Well
STOUR{: What are we accomplishing in Washington?
PRM 4NIT e;, Ildnt t say ' that-. LIet take' you, back. Vhea-I vei% A
to that Coimonalth'uietinlln Ottava lA& SVAugust, there W'as. a great
deal of to do as-to vbeither. PresIdent -Nixon vould -receive me. :-This tiwQ-.
there's no -suggestion -that. Fre6sdent -Ford -vonlt-.-: That, ia" yuan'. t W r\~
Thered: never -beena!, n Australiau-PrimeN~ ae~. erepoal theL~
Go'vrnent wvhose~ bead " of . Gov artaent ' Vas' xt-Ais. 4$. tugt1n aiddress the
United. Hattions! a';. Geera1.. Assemby :, 1.-. itas aboutMai. w. eddIt*. he
eemayAiWn igs& t hat--tould only b dnintm. coer4'-_& nd-,-I saw, Fo 4 D
and Trddea6 u th pro'cess.. No-vtd aebentknamis# If. I
hadnt. Ther~ e are many things vhlchonly-a head of Government-itan do;
it has to be done on the spot at thxt level. And I do it. by recent
Australian experience, more than adequately.
STONE: Right. Well I wvon't persist with this point, other than brf 0
up another rumour, as ) Long & S you're disposing o rumours. Would( you.,
PRIME MINISTER: I inean this is all very-necessary...
8 T 0 T Yes. But. would you ever accept the poat, of Secret-ary-Oeneral
the United Nations, and give up your job, becaune it h~ ls been* suggeste..
that you would?
PRIME MINIJSTRR: I belie-ve that Billy Wentworth-8uggested. it on the
Adjourtnment the other-night.
STONE: Yes.
PJRIKE MINISTERs. I missed it. But lie's the only person who has suge34--
it.. I don't, expect it to be offered and this is the joh I siought. and
is the job I'll fulfil.
STONE-. Could we 1talk now about the Labor Caucus? Are you proud of, lksperformance
of the Latbor Caucus in these troubled times? 7
TIRTME MINISTER: On balance, yes. Obviously they make mistakes I woulaL
hfive regarded from time to time, but let's be more precise there. You
tal-king In very generalised terms.
STONE: Well without coaching you, what I'd like you to do is in two o
thrte quick sentences I-ell the audience just -what benefit you see in
bai a Labor Cauculs that can overrule the decisions of the Prime Min,*'"
andQ net orbee they've been announced.
PRIME VINISTER: The Caucua comprises the Members of Parliament wbo've.,
becien e. % s Labor candidates, arid obviously we should get together'
& owe do, once , week ometimes more often -to dccde how we'll % vol,
ins the two Houtheh of Parliament. Now, you isay the Caucus can overthrow,.
thte P-rimne Minister and Ca;. net.
STONE: Overrole their decisions...
PRIME MINISTER: Well, 0K. They've done it twice. Theuy dijid it. (, ncet
last yet.-r Rnd once thisi year, and thesfe have been in that time, at leaa('
two thousand deeisionn thiat the Cabinet has made. Now that's a~ pretty.
good record. They have reversed C( Lbinet decisions ob two ocuasiona our
of' over two thousand.
STONE: Yes, Now many times have the delayed decisions that You thOugi-Y
should be brought about right away, and they've-said no, hold on?
PRIME MINISTrER: I cen t. think of any. I can't thirik of bny case.
STONTE: Or modified decisions.
6-
RIME, MINISTER: I can't think. I include "' molify" in reversing, be'& au~ e_.
the two cases where they reve-ravd them were in fact only. mairaions,
STONrE: Do you think you could have done
PRIMi MINISTPER-I mear there were two cases in over two thousanti. I mectt
these are things that are always personalis~ ed. and dramritiiiedt but in fac-f..
the Cabinet is ela~ ted by the Caucus and the present -Cabinet. hs.. beeu. J
twice elected, by the Vanc ug without change. So you npedn't think I'm
particularly worried alt a record like that,
STONE: No. but, at the same time the record may not. reveal what ja
actually hatppening in...
PRIME MINIS'PER1 Tit preCiMO.
), RIM' MINISTER: L~ et's be precise.-
8TONE: Well, precioely, are there meaisures that you would have~ liked
I-ring to help the * economny, to help Axistralia, which you f'eel you) couldi
get through Caucuis and thiereforp, perhaps, revised them?
)'~ N~ MINISTFR: E'very decision that theG Cabinet -has made, and has got.
through, with two exceptions...
PRIME MINIST'ER: * Yea, but wait a minute, I'm a member of the Cabinet a
tik yCabinet decisions. I'm Dot going to reveal detailgsof Caietdiscussions.
You wouldn't expf-ot me to do that.
STONE: No, no, but I can...
P'RIME MINISTER; You know the argument always used to be, befoure we c. i if e
into of1' iev, t-hal. a Labor Government would be under direction fromi people
who weren't members of Parlium( ent. Now apparently,,-the obe~ tion
is that it's underAirevoion f'rom people who arc-members of' Parliament.
STONE: TeR, hut there, you know there's quite a fee~ lirg, I thinik, that
* peppiv wbo don't understand Caucus..,.
PRIM JK'STEIW. I think that is true, but let me~ repeat: Caucus compr-G*% sepeop.
le wko are babor-Members of' Parliamnt. Nobo~ y v~ e B~ ut. eve ryN4odye
who is a rnmher.
8 KE: Yea but Fian you say as Prime Minister that there is no stop you
would have taken without, the Caucus? I'll rephrase that again, because
I said it very~ badly. But .> tI'm trying to sky is thait there are ; Stc r
you would have taken except for Catuctis not, approving.
PRIME 1INISTPRh There'a one instance thf~ t is known. beft're I comte 1~ cK.
let ine say that of' those two matters where the Cabinet devci. ioz-i 1weis
modified bt, Caucus, one was a year ago about taxation benefits for P C apt-C
in the gold-mining Industry and the other wfks concerning the higher
income tax on unearned income and that took place a r~ onth ago. Now the
one wbere I would heve do'ne -something but the Caucus didni't agr e e nor
in fact did the Cabinet, that wets about tbe, Ilarliamentany nalarieq.
B3ut. that's a well'known instance.
S, T ONR: Yepi, lut the trouble is although there's Jut a few incideuta,
t. hty hi Wg becu~ use they do seem to indicate that..
PHIV~ E HINISTPFIRt Yen, but don't give the impression that. they' re,
11UflerclUl, I've listed the two wl-ere there's been a modification
and I men'tioned another one where I didn't w&. nt the Caibinet to* ao what
it did, nr the Caucus to do what it did,
STONE: Okay. Can we say, can you say categorically-that there
jwsn( vcvr been a point where you have been brought to -threatening
rosignal-cOIñ. because of some action of the Caucus or actions of
your Miyii slc-ra?
i'RIWME fNIATER: Not for years, not, for years. There were somne
insfiinei?' s in the past, of course,-but not for years.
MINE: I'm just....
PR1IME MINISTIERt; Yes, well let's be pretise. There was an instance
F~ Ix thid a half years ago where 1. resigned. There ' s bee~ n no other..
STOE: T he r f was an incident last year, perhaps we wont c] i
ti& n iticidv., in the lHuse -where you suggested thast if CAucus Wenit
sliead t. o make youi reveal or give them prior inforMation about
tariff decisions that yc ohIœ~ esign your comomission -yuu
did . ay that to Mr Kelly?
M. M. N WINISTPRi but it never happeczir-d, did'it?
STOINE: No it never happenea, but I'm saying that ' hen a. rime
Minjster gete up ini the House and Pays somneth~ ing like that, ? eho
P ayh it's a thremt., whio -Ays it's not a threat? The point is,.
PRIMEB MINISTER,. it's sufficient for mte to state it~ for everybody to
behave with propriety.
$' TONE,: Alright. F'inally, on this pcdtitof CaUCUS. ' if it weren't.
for Catucus
P~ RIME MINISTLiU After all I'm a member of Caucus..
STONL; Yet, you are one ineuber of nin-. ety-five.
PPI14E 141NISTlPR. And I've been yes that's rtiht tn I've be* A
elected3 as the leader of Caucus, what, for over-nearly-eight years.
S TO lE: 15ut if you 6idn't have
PR~ IME MIN~ ISTER: Seve~ ral tte in that timec. I don't complain a bij r
C'aucus. I thiiik their cbruice has been ezccel ent.
STONEt You mean ' Prime Minister?
STONd8: But if you didr,' t ha~ ve to deal with Caucus would you have
p'ertap*. changed E~ ome of your Cabinet?*
PIifLt' MINSI~ k! No, no. I've al~ ways said I much prefer the Fpysteal
w~ iereMinistrs arechosen by their Parliamvntary ! oi~( u15
believe one of the great things that Itelped to bring dowii the LiYhey~ I
Partyv in Government was the favt tba~ t Prime ministers chos; e thteirj
liniihtcrs, and thie were, irtevitably, therefore, erliptiCILr 7n1
STrOUB: Airiqht, t. hoxne is
PP 14 E MI N I ST11 S F ut if anybody..
FT11 F Trhere is no Ministe~ r there right now that yoju would preic'i
riot have, Lut you have to have because of C I~ us attitudesi?
PR1Me I e Tr Therelv'e been few peo~ ple elected to the M~ tiitrY
that I diu.." ohoose, thut I didn't vote for ticarly. two' yeLari; aqc
whten we vote-d for th(-m but I'm not saying imy choice would have )-oeeI\
w iser. ,., TNE: I don't li)-e
PRIKS M4INISTER.-but I don't want anybocy to get the ;.) 2P16S)~ O1 t;; eltr
I wo'uld alfer the sy. Le that the Labor Party has of clioOs:: in( 4. the
Hinis-try. I Prefer it; I've always said that, and I'm still certaov.
Wt' the st way.
STORE: I don't particula-rly lik~ e to ask this rtext questiott, but J
thit'k expectlled Of me, It's been rumoured that you pla~ ri to ~ t
r id of Mr. Crear, as Trc-asurer. -8-
PRIME M4INISTER., 1 liell, I will not pick on Mrz. Crcant or oiybody tAl.-u.
have the responsibility in these mat-ters,* but I think he's been picleud
onfar tou much, quite obscenely, Ile's been friand of mind for over
210 years an6 I have confidence in him. After all, people. chould2,' t
just pick oxm the Treafsurtr.. These are. ditf icu~ t eco* nomic t~ imes. No
Trreasurer would have an easy job. Uut FrAnk Crean carrier, out the
Cabinet devielons.
~ TONS Well, can you say, catn you assure the publ. ic that. thexe-wo:' t
lie any reshuffling of Cabinet in the vext few months?
4 PR~ fMr 141NISTt~ R 1 will give no assurariccs or denil on this ? natter.
will not do it. You will then qc'through all the Hinistry. I'll not'~
be in that. A couple of months ago they were suggestir'g it about C~ n
snd Cainex-on and everybody Cop's it. A couple of months ago it wi~ s
riuggest~ ed that Caiimerein would be going9 to I. ondon.
STZONEr: It's. just like you and LIN Secretary-Generol.
PRI14IC MINISTER: * Tbat's r . ight There's ) lothi ng I've said ordotov tha t
woeuld justify any speculation that Creant would be going.
1,1TCJNr: B~ ut at least you're saying-that it is-* aPc0sibilityi
a Cabinet reshuffle is a pogsib ility?
P* PXMC 14INIST~ eR; I'm not saying it is or Is hot. That is my epnt-h
And there is nothing that I've said or dorne that would justify tecula4-v'N
STONE: Can we get on to the ecotiomy inow? You've & aid that the Au:--ti QIIlciV
comomy is basicolly sound,
PRI14E MINISTER: Yes, of course,.
STrONE3 Are you basingj that on informai~ ton that's not known to ItIc pubit'-
PRIME8 MIN~ ISTER: N~ o, Lut of courrse if'E true we bave a hr-althy, ldua(?
. ctiv'e populationm and we have ve-ry grea. natur-al resources.
SOVE Yes, but..
TI'r E HIlNISTFRT; And we have healthy trad;-.
& rh2 ut. is that wia L you re cal3ling. basica iy--ounkd..
PRlI'XM r~ Ye Yes.
~ TOCHE in the i'ace of an increase in busintesa ccilli~ ptuea and an itri(-sin
uri iployrunt
tPRIME MINISTER; NOW wait a wait a mninute. L~ et.' s ileprcñ:
I dOnI't W'~ nt to be abraiive about this.
STO 11E yee S
1' RXLHE HIHISIFI: Let'sa bc preeia~'. What bsinetis* collapmes?
STONE: Well, precis ely, ici instauce, the Victurien ehauibcr of Ca~ amerae
isaid that 240 Luc-IneLss firmsa had vollapses so far this year, cctmpaire,-
thI: A, LO 160 in the..
PRIME MINISTERv Now the onea that would if I had to think of
Fsoie business collapses, I would thirnk of n ame cbmpanies which had
kpeipulati~ d in land and which would only atake do if the boorn ln~ lr
continiud. well1, wo stopped the boom in land. ILut. lat.' s be precicecon
these things.*
STONE-Well, yes, it's good to be preclie, becaiuse, perhaps,
these big companies have beirn stealing the headlioes. ! eut wha~ t
we bavzen't. L-~ ern~ about is -smalller companies, all acios& the
spectrum of Australiani life, gatting themnelves into trouble and
p. erhaps eollapaing because of what the Governmiet has~ done. I aMeQ
I've just quoted yoa the Victorian Chamber of Comaterco.
~ PIY4 MINIST1ER. You said what the Gov'ernnehit 1i~ s d~ no. whint..
$ IrO). t Right. Welli.. you don't believe tbat any busirtis arQ-
( QII& VSapain becAuse of what the Government bas done?
PRIME t4INISTERt It would be true that the land ripeoulators hinve ), e~ x
hurt. beauxse of what we did, and it was right that we should do it.-
I meaun, if thu St. ntie. won't regulate the cost of land whiich thfey
Can do dircctly, and our Parl. iam. ent can't. then wehave to use
the measurcee that are available to u&.
STONE: So you're suggegting that the only companties that, are heini
hurt by this are land companieg?
* PiR1MiE MINI$ SLBR: That's right. You look at thein all.' I suppose U
coUld miention; beyland too,
ST 0O E WFe, ll how do you explair,
PR~ IMP. M! I11TLR: WhaL otzipanies; arv there that you can chivi:-of, 0' r
! ruggest, o~ ther than Leyland an~ d some of the laie comrnies'
STC'NL: Well, I cain't' deal with specific-cernpanier., but I c at ava)
with specific reports. The Chamber of Commerce in assoeciaticon wiIl%
he lNatiorlal Bank issued a report iii whIct, ts aa. I thlat centt:
Cneff; only felt that. they were heavirv s; uoesftil or
compared to 83 per cent a few months ago.
I-Ril14, f fi 3Tr. R. We talked o few inonthso ago fror: time to timie tc, 6c4
of thein, Yb,. t we spoke to the reI7. reiientatives; of hbusiness before
We ] reW lip Lhe buidge ind there were not report,. at. ao-fniry in
character as that. -1 ink it is quite damacjing to ' jive the imr~ s~
that bUginesses arc Coll a pAnq ; All round the country. They & rec f
' rhey aro riot,
STONE: How 4o you explairt a F'. irvey that indican. tcs that 4 pry L~ v'T_
alwnt half the Australijans, cor~ jkidr economic condit ions to bc,
right pmpoor or very poore
I'RIJK MINISTER,, Well, there again, what one are you quoting?
STONE: The 74SRB Poll which appears in Ilrhe HvtA24V1 , n " TheI~ e
P-RIME MIN$'? YR: People are givingq their impres! sions of how thixaq
will be ill, szy, a YL-arl's time'. NOW
ST14iB 140t only thit~ they were. talking about a yuar" a t ilFt Or now..
But surely you must realise-that-if the people' $ a-ying thi-s" are
Lusirness leaders, sorle business leaders aresayingq the country's irt
a mess and some unilon. leaders are-saying the * economy is i n. L% Zyres a ati
some people are registering this-in a poll, that -they must-at Iea&.' t
feel that the economy's in a mess?.
PRIME MINISTER: Now, it' quite clear that the figurea for' thd ntic
quarter,' on things like prices and employment, will be no iprc'vpmet.
ob those that have-com~ e out in the last couple of weeks. Andlthe
quarter after that there may be no great improimtnt. After that, X
believe there will be. Now, what we've had to deal' wi th is the'old
demand Inflation; ' we have largely brought that. urbder control. we.
n~ ow have cost.* push inflation'and I believe we are cowing -to a coialpuetr
wi~ tl the employee orgabisations, the unsions, white-col-lar peop& le, and
so on, which will be able to retrt.* n that# and. we jre of oourse conferring
with them as to the casee we'll1 put before the Arbltratioi.
Commtissioni. STONE. but let's get. this straioht it's very itoportant.. 1ot for
two quarterg.-tor at least the next. qaiarters you expect inflation to
PRI14e1 MlNIS11ERs I don't say that. X don'It believe that there will
any sirnificarit improvement in the indices. I meavi I'Im being quite
frank with you
! TOh1B: Yee
PRImE MIISTflt But X don't believe theke'll be a Aeterioration and
think the quarter after that, there will. be some marked itnrrovemerit.
AR 7 say the demand inflatio'n bas been curbed, the cost inflation& haS
yet to be restrained.
STN: Well, jaut las~ t Monday we saw-5.4 per cent for the quarleY.
PRIt4F MZIITEJt Yes, and it may be 5.4 in the December quarter.
STOREC: Or 5. 5, You could expect
PR14E M 114 XcTLK. u it may, ok 5.3. it way be over 5 or
. STONB-. But. no oubstantial improvetment, and a possi ble deterivratiomi* 1
PRIME MXHISTCrR: I'm hotforecas. ting it, jioer for the Matrch ' quarter. AA0
* tile figureA there will come out in A~ pri~ l. After that, I believa the
will-be an improvement. AN I say, there has beon an improvernent in
the demand inflation, ' iVicie hos been, in recent months, a deterifdOko
* in the cost infl ; tion. I believe that we are coming to a compbct
whi'ch will restrain that.
STONiU: Cost infl~ atcsn zneantitsg wage demans by un~-ors?
VR1141 141NSIVER: HVxCeeSive income clai'f. by eumployees in general, bel-
1-nloyeen Are noct the only people
SThHL: S; omme criticil woul~ d say it too); you long9 anough to -get-around
to b1& miy~ q excessive wagqe demands fox-Soule of thl inflation that wio re
s ee I h9. It wa& only in th'e last c'ouple of weeks that you've really...
PIMC14iNI STEfl: No. One 4ould have: said it for a few months pfi,. r'
b~ ut one couldn It blame that-a year ago. ,* The inf lation Ut that. -tjv~
waG much more demand than cost. much more.
SToHwIy: o'vt aledabutinflttion pertiaps procesding on. -for
the next two quarters at least before At goes . down. Is that a
correct sumary 6f what you've j us t* said?
P RIME~ MIIS~ TUR: HMi. I' not forecasting that there 1-ill bea
decline.
STONE: N4o but that's % ihat you'd . expect What about utt v-4 P1011
merit the prog1ression of -unemlploymen~ t figures9?
fI14E 14INISTBR: he I Say, well I was talking about thetf as well r:
said prices and eimployment.,
STONE: see. So that we ian what, in the nex* t two qu., rters
the next two quarters..
PRIME MINISTER: I don't think there'll be a sinificaht-prova. ve&
in the neikt two quarters. Abd let's be plain about this; There ' 1
s6tep that%, one Can take whicb: has an impact in 1,6ss than a6bout sif
. months. 3tverything you do economically, . takes about sixK ionths + 0
have its œ wtpact. I don'It thkhk your viewers should have any im prm-ss
that there, is a oimple or eary or popular step' that one can take""
cure it. if there wtere it's amazing that nobody' 4s used it..
. S1ONiD: Ye. s; but it is sirprising that for a government, a l. eado-tU tk~ o
came in with'. such progressive and radical ideas Imean*, f-0r r
ins'tance, the. recognition of maixiland Chin a, we'Ire ' one of the f 0*
western countries to revognrise So~ viet control of theo Daltic couuirvel.-
euidiinq conscription all of theiie radical and progressive
PflIMB' 14l1IST'lI N4o, most countries have done these ChingS. 7
STONEi But
PRIMR-MINISTER! We were* Just. late in doingr them.
STON~ s But your treatme'nt of the.-economy seems to bie traditiana QA( i
rcsthcr-unimagitiative; you're osing some of-: the classiical measulres
that ' have always been used.
PRIl4k MINSITERz No, on the contrary. For instance Clhe unempQnfbiieji~
posit~ ion. We atre the first Australian Gove~ rnment toue atty weUs-om
for r-etraining": people fcix other joe or to. enlist local organizeto;
in finding new:,. avenuen of employment or directly assisting cntop-qio_-d
which are in difflcultkea outside] the metropolitan area.
ST ON~ U it's very late, very late.
PRIME 34lHISTEla; syeNNo,, wee lt maybe.
13.
TOiPNE: Your measures hae' caught up really, your corrective
miiasures boven't caught. up with the ones,
PRIM MINISTER:, These--should hav'e been done y eaurs,-ago. -We *, ere'
the-. first Australian Government t-o do it. don't th) inrk that', you
can rtay there was never any need in the past, for adult. training
cr retbraining or. for regionsl employment sch~ emes or for asisistacee
t~ o particular companies hurt by particular programs in ' regional
areas. I mean, thr-se things ought tU have bee.-doupe long sInce.
They were being done in some other c6untries. : They'd never
been donie h~ ere. We had to start them.
* STONE:: Will you.' tell the. people you have within the Government-:
dedicated socialibts, honqest socialistsi, who : b-e-lieve thiat
capitalism is p-erhapa in~ its last days, that capitalism is doomed?
Now can it bp that even with the btst intentions....
PRIMfE MINISTEFR; No we aren't. I me"~ it miay* be thuat theoreti, ally,
* you'd expect: me to say that. The fact ir.. that all. the Ministers
accept the tact th~ at w: e have amixed economy, and-three-quarters
of the job. s available in Australia must' be pro-4ided by privoate
*-mployers,.; not by GoVernments, That
STONE: Yeat hut at the 6ame time....
P'RIME HIN16TER: Th t is, we tuant to make the mlied society work
this way. Yout just ca. n It do this through Goverment initioatives
alone, 3TONE: But you know-anough ahout -teaml iork to kiiov that u" less
y'ou have psychological attitude that s is, " Yes, v an aucceedl',
that it tends to debilitate the whole ftam N~ ow-can peoplo who
believe, just aying some: people in-+ your Government, wilo
believe tt
PRIME HINISTER: Do: youwmind being precise? Youive mcrntionvd,
what is itall th~ C's you've remtioned -Campton, Cairns,
* Crca. n an&. Curanor.. 4*.
S'FON..: .( Inaudible) aud yet we don't....
PRIMEn HiI'USTER: Well,, certaintly. So let,' s be prccisv About thi..
All the oc-L:~ ' o0u+ ve, mentioihed: you can't quotvL them as,-ever
having, express. the view that you're-giving in gtineral -isc-d
terms. A~ nd I d~ o. 1t doi ' either. " ov 0h df# YOU Sfty,. who do
you suggest, holds those -w.
9TONE: Yes, vell I woil dn't like suggest. But Ia..
PRIME H IN iSTfhR: No.. Well it'. 6 very, dif ficult.
STONE: l1you that, we hiad a direc tor of otte qjf thie
speculative land' companies,. that you fsaid, wertt down quite nutura.) ily,
in the cireurtsiances, StuggeSt that he thought there vtrc, elemets
in the Crovernment. who were quitesRatisfied'with the ' Collapse.
betause it was part of, their socialist belief to try and gvt + rid
Or t
PRIME MNISTERH: I'm -iot surc-who you're: talking & i) out there..
Which compaby or which persion?-
14.
(~ rft* 1? el l: alnline abd 14r Uichr-rd Bak~ er.
1, r Ik 1i11 13Th'R: Yes. Vell it's a bit Unriacious cotitng from ' him
1, ecause t6everal of my colleagues talked directly. to the executi ' Vea
of Mitinline and I clidn t.. speak directly to them, hutl'waR into
helcpo, nsbuutl vthit~ : awtaiys Mn ' t inoiusrt erfsa ulwth ot'hwaerte , M aainndl inine vfaasc t oveer -dexidte ntdrey. 6-*. 1
They wore one of. those companies, uufortunately, that vould only"...
* succeeil could Quniy contiuue it * he boom cOutinued. No w
* we did -help ve.: did try to htelp Mainline, and -the fact va9' that-. 7
Ihr-y were beyonid tielp,
STOKE; Can we get% O n to one-. other aresa? Surely you mustrele
that people are greatly disappointed in. the failure of the-.
Lab~ or Goveriiment to ' deal with the unoi. They thtought if -there
V[ s A good Otance in ' you, it wruld lie that yo i would be able to
dt-al wi th the unions 6ffeetively. Instead, we have, ' the highest
r1ate of btrikies, the highest. number of work days~ lost, te
highest. nm!) rIeS of wagesi lost., in' our history.
PRIME MINISTER:. Yen, thl* s ig ar Oppalling i -ecord -inp I thinkl
t-i Se-c'ond quarttr of thiAs year. Bitt. the last quatrter-thercetIa
* been n vv. ryv great. improvemrPt. Now I would cdnfess, have thought.,
* that this was a wury great. ioinus for . us the, Industrial.
situk-tirin it) AvOttalia but I niotice the recent poll aid you've
referred* to pollsa lready found the: . people didn't think that
* thif. would lie any )' etter indr our opponents. ' So it way . be
-that. pt-cple aire just despairing about.' this isituation. We have
STON{ E: : It's known: as cold 7conf ort.
PIME xI1hJ$, 11R: : Oht it isa, it is. .1 find thci position. quitf,
iuatigf actory. : But the polls showed th& t they didn't b~ elieve
our cpponent~ s would huve drine ai) y better at all, I'm certain
that t~ hings arr ' better heoause thtere iii f'requpnt consultation
between1 the unicins'and tho white callar people and my-( Goernment,
meaning myself. That is, -we are able to consult touch More freely
and effectively tfhan would. be the case with an y other Ooverniment&
STONE. But. we have jttst keen the spectacle Of Mr Hawke Coming 7-
out. & od irtually saying that, unless the fioveirnment tI~ kes
emergency mnsuT-Cs to correct the pace of the ' economky. that it.
could well facc. collapse the Labor Gove-nr nt.
PR IMN MI N IS9TER: WellI I1 1 speak to Mr Hfawke quite f requently;
only.: ye isterday,. anid then the weekend bef ore. that., and I can
assure you that these are simplifications which get into the
ii* adlineh anda-so on.
STON'E: You d1on't thiink there s nedfor % emrergency mieasuires
eiralergency aeAtiOn?
M-CTH MINISTER:-Not em'orgerncy ones -there. has to be~ constant.
stittention to the economy. As I sayt I don't.. think th6at anywhere
in the western world thinga have beexi so conc~ entratedly difficult
for 40 years, ant we have aboun ourselves resourceful & ad flexible
in deuiling with Vhje situation. Blut121' atisfied that we are
getting,,. we will get the co-operation. -our opponents wo'uldn't
get the co-operation of employees iii these proceedings' before
the Arbitration Cammission.-
C1$
Mr-. O n . oI Or t U] ih t f ir obsu v. riieut. k:
in. e eaao q -at,
* r 41quit: ni W
STOh'E n you're hippy to ha e your wife with fo'ur jobs?':
PRIME MINIS7% R: Well: let's be preciae there a ga inb. What one
wouldd you th'ink she shouldn't have?
STONFE: I wouldn't niako a judgemrent. You're the hxibband.
PrilME 141 NJ ' iER: Yr~ sp well I think she'r. the, heatlappointment.
I e& er mmde:-
STONE: Yes.'
PROM. 14INISTER: bet'si face it; ishe's been a very good wife, a
very good mother and a ~' ery good-Itzember's wife too. : Buit I sxuppcse
thrv xonly Job that she lies, anything that the Uovernmcent pays [ ter
for,-is on'the Hotels, and she is very well quralified for that
joh.,-After all, in my ( electoratp thereL have been fc'u-r such
htostels. We ) ived in the next atreet to oile of' thern, and slic*
knows, I would think bs*-* vll as aiiy womuan iin Australia, the
problems that grants in particutar ha[ vC, bcaUSC sae upsed to~.
be'aiv in Rchool affairs, 8wirmuing club. thivgs and 8ac on
o nd aBhe has a greut rapport with -heo.
ST() VIE: s long ax you're happy I au ipose nobody (-Ise
shiould...
lfIIIHM MNlS'fER: 0 lEactlyo and vhfit' a moru she's lappy. A w( 6!-zia1
, sfher experience arid lively W~ d intelligeit naturt can't Jbist
he expecteii to be walking Onl W ) Oft two Pact's 1bebi)) d th] roug h
I pe. Sherx got a contribution to ih ref
TY OhlF As long as you still get clean aek i 1,
PR( IME WflTR-Ye a, yes. Twice a day Pometirnes.
fON9: Tupt on a note, and I suppose it'fs in a way vthat
Y4DU feUrc in. the ituleL, te f utuwre. M4r 11jelke-Phter's-en in
Queensland.. l'ilMI4l I8'~ R: Yes, ye.
STONE: is going to hold aW election.:
PH1ME MINISTER: Tha fS right.
S110h~ Ife i a going to ffake this -the symboal., in his wodof
yo~ ur 04ility to stand or fall cis a Governiment. Aoeyou willing.
to accept a cho. 1lenge a). ong thoUSCe
I K MIN] STER: of course, of cvurAe. For the first. titre the
peoO]' ofi Queensland will be alile to hear chapter iine v'erse for
Hr e~-je te~& n. sobstruction. -that is, if Sir Robert Askin
tor Mr lH~ rier can co-operate : with my cioverroricini, why is it that
* Mr Bjl-etr' an't? Hles right. out on his own. Can t
Cven agre~ e on the titre of dkay.
STIONE-7 u s ay that, he's on -his own, ' iut every -iiidicatiou xe
AThat lie will he rati -irned, or ' ct least the coalition will he
-returned.
ThIHE 14I1PI1TER-Y v 6, but under. that system, of coufftrse, it. a
ve ry i? ry.
.3ONE: But picking uip Labor rigats. And I-he question is it
you lose s-vats will -this be ab indication of diseatisfactiuin?
PIME MINJSTER: I. 11li e looking at theL Io veral].' percentag ( if
voteh ve-ry closely* sud of co'urse 8o wi111he, an Vill everytoody
e) sp. 13A, let's face it.. . At the lalt Queensl. and elecotions thri
Lblor caindidates-got more votes than the Liber'e1/ Country P~ arty
cana~ idyteNi combined. And. the Liberal. candid't-es ' cit. mo0re voter
than Vir. ( Thurtry P'arty candidates,. That is, ill it wc,' s a~ fair
SYO'" m UP t" he-e, asnuming the Coalition, tfie 1bibera3* and Cou-ntry
Par~ ty won, '; ir Gorilon. Chalk would bet the Yrt: rmi( r of Queensl. fid,
jpt, MrT Hjelke-Petvrrsen. I mean, we ought to acknaowledge that the
0 . Ystew is r iged in favour of' ihp Ccvntx* Y P~ artyv think they
. Pall thje el. VeS the n.-ational Varty up there Dow..-:
STPONE: Itld been suggested that Mr Snedden woutld use this ais
a sign Of public ilemand for'jireusing.:. or an elk-ction, if he
founid tbat the Li bral/ Couritry Party. coalitiot did pick-up
ALP tieats, Would you see it-ar just the opposite it you lost
seats ' wouid yab consider' ifI. as EL vign that -the people: reject,'#.
PR I KE -MINISTER-Mr Snedden inade one load miat hc' in timring
last Aprl
STfONE: Ys.
PR I M INISTER: .(, one load miste-ke. blut it does~ n't, depryid on
* Mr Sn( eddeii. It dependR ( in what Liberal Senatcar. s will And
there are., 1 know, I'm certain, there k%' Ce herall
Senators who are men-of principle and would not. j-cfuse ' Supply
to a Government. They weren'tV in favour-of it Jla~ i ti me
and this time would stick to their principles.
STON[ P Well. you're a good roli-tician. AteP you counting on the
fact that the, Libeicals -von't be able to pif sh you into an election
if' you don'tl want. it some time next. year?
11,1WME HNJS'PE14 TChat's -rig ht. I -went to ftie peoIple last May nn
tt icte-year prograrD anxd-IL think w! R'll have that three years.
Jim going Ethead. ( rn the banis that we will ha.* e I andi my
Ministers, will-have three years to carry ou. the program
wiihwe put to: the pe'ople, and which they tendoracri for the
sC 01nd time.
T0(' N Z; You're counting on that?
VI1-JI11ST9Rl_ Yes.
STONE4 Mr Whit-lum thsink you very' Vuch
Y'R I M 71 N I ST'E, t: Thank youi Gerald.*