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PRIME MINISTER
TRANSCRIPT OF THE PRIME MINISTER, THE HON P J KEATING MP
INTERVIEW WITH DEAN BANKS/ ROSS STEVENSON, RADIO 3AW
MELBOURNE, 5 OCTOBER 1995
E& OE PROOF COPY
J: We are joined this morning by the Prime Minister.
PM: Good morning, Dean.
J: You are largely known to be nocturnal, as opposed to this early...
PM: And I am largely that. But some invitations I can't resist.
J: I was going to say, you're a week late, you know, the Grand Final was
last week. The real one.
PM: I know. Well, for us there's a Grand Final every 3 years.
J: Oh so we're in election mode now, are we.
PM: No, no you said the real one, and that's next year, the way we're
going.
J: Sort of seems like we're in election mode.
PM: Well, I suppose it does. I mean, but people have been saying this
now for 18 months. You might remember John Hewson was still
Opposition leader during this Parliament, and he said we were going
to an election, and then Aldxander Downer said the same, and Mr
Howard. But I, well, we're now into October, so it's not going to be
early.
J: Is it true you don't like travelling?
PM: I don't like travelling?
J: Yeah I read something in one of the papers the other day.
PM; No, no. I like travelling I like getting about. I was in South Australia
the day before yesterday, and Melbourne yesterday and today.
J; We don't seem to see you down here much, though.
PM: I come here lots often. But I'm in and out, you know. I do things,
and I generally shoot back home.
J: But it's not really a public performance when you come to Melbourne?
PM: Well, it depends how much coverage I get, I suppose. But I come
here very often I'm here every couple of weeks.
J: Tell us, we do get reported comments of yours from time to time that
sort of seep out of they seem to seep out of dinner parties to the
effect that you say things like in Australia if you are not living in
Sydney, you're camping out?
PM: No somebody falsely attributed those words to me. I, love
Melbourne the garden city of Australia.
J: Tell us in your heart of hearts when you get with your mates your
real mates, the ones where confidentiality is at a premium....
PM: There's no such thing as confidentiality.
J: But even when you get with them at a dinner party behind closed
doors, do you ever give Melbourne a nice old bucketing?
PM: No. I'm a great fan of Melbourne's. And I have tried to do some
things here particularly when things were low a couple of years ago
and they have basically happened, I think, a few of the things we
have been involved with. And I have been very keen to see Victoria,
you know, get its act together and to move on. Because this is a
lovely city the Treasury building for instance,, is one thing that I was
involved with. We did that in One Nation cleaned it up, and
provided the funding to turn that into, again, another building of
important status that could be used for public purposes. And we
have also been great supporters of Southbank...
J: Home of the new casino?
PM: Well, home of the new Casino, but a good development. The value
in the city jumped the River. I have been vocal about Melbourne's
skyline, about its architecture, about its town planning, I'm opposed to
100 storey buildings... 2 j.
J: You've convinced me know that you are the greatest fan that
Melbourne has in the world!
J: In fact, that's where that quote came from, wasn't it those years ago,
that you said the disappointing thing about Melbourne now is that
there aren't a lot of buildings that you can have a good perve at?
PM: Oh, I could have said something like that, but it's a bit crass for me,
that, isn't it? But Melbourne has got a great architectural heritage
about it. It's taken the sort . the people have taken the natural
topography and made something of it. If I look at Sydney where I'm
from where there has always been that great advantage of the
Harbour, which is the natural asset the city had, Sydney has never
done as much with the rest of the place as the people of Melbourne
have done with Melbourne. I mean, I think this . you can see vista
upon vista here of city-scapes, and really particularly suburb
development, and suburb and views, they are by and large
superior to most of Australia's cities.
J: You mention that word " election" a little bit earlier on do you get a
sense that, these days, with the parties being so close, that this next
election may be an election without issues?
PM; Oh, it will be an election with issues. I said the other day, it will be a
referendum on ideas.
J: But that's big picture stuff, isn't it?
PM: Well, I don't think so. I mean, ideas matter for the future, they matter
for the sort of world and the country our children will live in. I mean,
my children are now just becoming teenagers it wasn't so long ago
they were just little kids, and in 10. years' time, they will be well and
truly into their adult lives, so we have got to think now about what sort
of country we are going to be...
J: Is that sort of creating the issues for when the election runs?
PM: No, I think, but, say, some of the things we have been speaking about
or I have been involved with such as APEC [ where] I'll be going up
to Osaka in November threading together a free-trade area in the
Pacific to give Australia a place in the big markets for the first time
ever, and a seat at a very big table. Now, some people might think
it a bit abstract, but it isn't. It matters to us now, but it will matter
more to our children in a decade. I mean, these sorts of issues are
the sort of country that we live in, the view we have of ourselves, the
values we have all these things I think are important.
J: They might be just a bit too big to be able to convey in 30 second
sound grabs, though?
PM: I don't know if you look at the OJ Simpson trial yesterday what you
saw yesterday was...
J: Do you think he's guilty?
PM: Well, what you saw there was a division of opinion around a division
of values. Now, I think in this country . this is a multi-cultural
country and I made this point last night we're certainly not... . we are
doing the opposite to homogenising the culture, but we are certainly
homogenising the values. And I think it is very important that we
have a set of core values as a community where we mean something
to each other, and we mean something to one another, and we don't
take that sort of view which is very typified now of America that the
strong take the best, and the devil takes the hindmost. And I think
that is sort of a callous view of the world that the strong prosper and
the weak fall off the back of the truck is something that the Labor
Party, and I in particular, have always resisted. And a lot of this
coming election will be about those sorts of thongs about whether
you do have a safety net for wages, whether you do have a social
wage, whether you do keep Medicare.
J: Talking of Medicare, are you going to revamp it, according to a report
in The Australian this morning it seems you are?
PM: Well, we're constantly looking at it, because it is constantly changing,
because the quality of health services have changed, I think, for the
better in a decade. The main thing is that we are getting any
outcomes, I mean....
J: Is that a yes? You are going to give us a revamp
PM: We'll be doing some things with it but again, I have said the other
day, and I have just said to you-here this will be a referendum of
ideas, and the Government has got plenty of ideas in the market
place, and that Cabinet of mine is always brimming over with ideas
we have always got more things there than we can use. And I think
this is the same in health. But, it is important that we keep the tone
on Medicare so that it does serve the community well.
J: Do you think, Prime Minister, that you made a mistake some years
ago when you were Treasurer to accept the advice of John Howard,
and when Mr Howard told you that you should live in Canberra,
instead of commuting all over the place? In other words, you have
been stuck there for such a long, long time do you feel that you're
away from the Australian people? There's so many retired politicians
say to us that, you know, that's cloud cuckoo-land up there?
PM; Well, I'm in Sydney or Melbourne virtually every week if I'm in
Sydney one week, I'll be in Melbourne the next, or Adelaide the next.
I mean, 1get around this country alt fm -all dthe bme And the other
thing is, we're not just sitting in a cell in Canberra people come
through the door, I mean, business people, community groups you
are constantly seeing a range of people. As well as, of course,
dealing with the media. So, I love getting around Australia I mean, I
love the country, and I love looking at it, seeing it, talking to people,
and I think I'm as in touch with it as any Prime Minister could have
ever have been.
J: Have you cast your eyes to what you might do after politics it
occurred to me, I wonder whether having to make these repeated
protests to the French is cruelling your post-Prime Ministerial job
prospects in Paris?
PM: You mean for the Paris Option?
J: Yes.
PM; No, well, I think I have got a bit of time to do here, before I do any of
that.
J: Well, having won the last one which was described as the
impossible win is the next win optional for you?
PM: Oh no they are never optional. No, you have got to go in hard after
them no-one gives you these things on a plate, you have got to earn
them. The public are quite smart about all this they say look, we
make these characters earn our support we get value from them that
way. And when they see a tug-of-war going on, they say this is good
we are going to get some value here. So they like the contest they
like, you know they like to hear the ideas. I mean, one of the strikes
I am making against John Howard is Andrew Robb says he has got
98% of their policies finished. To which I say, well, why are you
hiding them from the Australian people?
J: Because it's good politics?
PM: No it's not. I don't think it is good politics. I think the public are
entitled for their leaders to give them the directions which the country
ought go. To give them the shape of the sort of Government they
would lead.
J: But you get a situation like Martin Ferguson bashing up the Coalition
about the privatisation, and yet you have flogged off Qantas and the
Commonwealth Bank and ANL and so on or attempted to?
PM: Yes, but we have still put our policies in the market place. And I think
that if you do that, you say to people well, this is what we stand for,
but saying ha ha, look, we are going to be tricky here [ andjwe are
now just going to give you a glimpse of them, like a sort of a dirty
postcad,. and pull it out of the sleeve, and give you a quick look at it
S
before you go and vote, this is the Howard view of the world, It's a
view without integrity, in my opinion. I think honesty and credibility in
public life is only about policies it certainly starts with policies. And
you know, they should be in the market place, and in getting them
there, people can make a judgement. And they see where the value
is, and they can make a decision.
J: Just the very thought of John Howard pulling a dirty postcard out of
his jacket.
PM: Well, a policy postcard. ( inaudible)...
J: Do you ever look at some of your former colleagues who have now
retired and envy them their position you know, you pick up The
Bulletin every week, presumably you read Richo's article you know,
where he is getting paid $ 400,000 by Kerry Packer to churn out that
stuff?
PM: I know, but they're all trying to get back in the game, aren't they? I
mean, they're all victims for a microphone or a television camera.
J: Do you read Richo's column every week in The Bulletin?
PM: No. I don't read The Bulletin, much. The Bulletin has died as a
magazine years ago, I think. I mean, The Bulletin was a must-read
thing 10-15 years ago, but it's a must-forget magazine these days.
J: What do you read?
PM: I read the newspapers, in the main.
J: Yep. Preferred paper?
PM: No, I read the Sydney Morning Herald, The Age, The Australian and
The Financial review most mornings, and then when I get to work, I
pick up the Courier Mail, and the Adelaide Advertider and West
Australian.
J: What do you expect from the Packer outlets whenever this next
election is called? What do you anticipate from the Packer organs?
PM: Oh, well, I don't think it ends up being much different, whatever they
think about you what ever the proprietor's view is.
J: But do you think that the proprietor's view is going to, at some stage,
filter through one of his outlets?
PM: In some respects. I mean, they will do the... .60 Minutes will sort of get
the message to do a softie on Howard, or something like that. But
again, they're one segment Proprietors are very it's very hard for a
7
proprietor to program the news. It's like the proprietors of this station
saying to you guys look, this is what you should be asking the Prime
Minister. You would say oh come off it, wouldn't you?
J: Absolutely.
PM: Absolutely.
J: Peter Nixon asked me if I could ask you...
PM: He's an old mate of mine.
J: Nicko said it's interesting you raised that 60 Minutes thing that was
about the closest we got to learn a little bit about this fella called Paul
Keating. You have been in public life for what 26 years, yet we have
had your sister sitting in that chair where you're sitting we probably
learned more about you from Annie than we have ever found out from
you yourself?
PM: Well, I have had so many of these so-called colour pieces written
about
J: You don't like any of those, do you?
PM: No. Basically, if I could do the job completely privately, I would. I
don't really like the razzamatazz. That is, the so-called celebrity
status of it. But, there's nothing about me that isn't written there
somewhere, or said in some television program, or in some profile. I
mean, there's been so many written over the years, that when
someone comes and says look, we would like to do a profile on you,
we say oh cut it out cut it out, we have done so many.
J: Do you feel the Australian community knows you, though?
PM: I think they know me, back to front.
J: You puzzle me in that sense, because I remember Ros Kelly saying
for example there are two of you the one the public knows, and the
one that she knows.
PM; Well, they certainly know the public me I think they have seen me
for a long time, now. Privately, we are all different privately I think
probably I mean, you're different privately than you are on radio, I'm
sure of that.
J: Like you wouldn't believe.
PM: That's right. Well, I think we all are. We all are. We're a bit... . we are
different And, of course, you're not in that sort of competitive
environment, and so you behave differently. And I suppose it would
be good of the community saw more of that, but how do you do that?
You can hardly invite the TV camera's in for brekkie, can you?
J: No. Here's a question for you I have been dieing to ask, Prime
Minister. Is there any danger of getting Laurie Brereton to get the
time of an air flight from Melbourne to Sydney down under about a
day and a half?
PM: Well, I don't know. I mean, certainly if John Howard shuts that Third
Runway down, it will be two and a half days.
J: But it is, I mean...
PM: You would grow old on the trip.
J: But I know just talking to people who travel from Melbourne from
Sydney on an aeroplane, but it's just getting longer and longer.
PM: Well, just imagine if you cut 35% of Sydney's capacity out. I mean,
this is what this thing with Howard was about last week. It wasn't so
much about the runway, or about the travel time, it was to say this
he's been at me and others saying " we have got to take Australia to
the next phase of micro-economic reform. The Labor Party can't do
this we're the blokes that will crack the tough nuts of the waterfront,
and the airlines and the labour market. Okay, the government's done
not a bad job, but they have come about as far as they can go, you
had better give it to us". The greatest micro-economic change in Civil
Aviation infrastructure in the last 20 years is the 3rd runway at
Mascot in Sydney. And first whiff of grapeshot, first bit of pressure,
and Mr Howard is about buckling under and cutting its capacity back.
So what would he do on all the really hard things, like ports, wharves
and the labour market? And the-answer is buckle. That's the point
it wasn't a discussion about the airport so much, but the airport is still
central. It's been the gateway to Australia, Mascot. It has the most
international flights, and just to get the East Coast group working
properly at Brisbane-Sydney-Melbourne.
J; It was working properly, though wasn't it?
PM; To get it working properly, you have got at least to have the capacity.
See, a few years ago the Government de-regulated the airline system
we took away the 2-airline agreement. As a result, air fares
dropped 25% roughly
J: Yeah am I right in saying we wound up with 2 airlines?
PM: But you have got a competitive system. A 25% fall in airfares, and
plus increase in traffic 60%. In the last 3 years, 60% more
people are travelling. Now, what that has done is put huge pressure
on Sydney and Melbourne, but particularly on Sydney. And without
that 3rd runway, without those parallel operations, we would I
mean, God knows how long it would take you to get everywhere else.
J: Let me ask you a question are you going to come to the Melbourne
Grand Prix at Albert Park, which I remind you is on March 10, or have
you got something else planned for that weekend?
PM: Well, Jeff has not invited me. He's keeping this one to himself.
J: We got a couple of tickets, if you want to come?
PM: Maybe you will let me have one?
J: Yeah, you're more than welcome. Score our Premier out of 10 for
us?
J: Is he the biggest ally you have got in your hopes for re-election?
PM: Well, he . yes, he is a complex character, is our Jeffery. He will do
some things that's what the public like about him, he'll get in and do
some things. That's what I like about him. What I don't like about
him is the sort of ideological cast of the Government -it's still basically
the hard-hearted view, and if you see it writ large in the Federal
arena, that means, you know, cuts in Government spending, it means
cuts in payments to families, it means all those sorts of things.
J: A 6 maybe?
PM: Hmmm?
J: A6?
PM: Oh yes, I'll give him a 6.
J: You pass him. And one word -we're out of time we're out of time,
one word answer OJ Simpson, do you think he is guilfy or not?
PM: Well, I think what is guilty is the circus which-it was has meant that
justice could never have really been done, one way or the other.
J: Prime Minister, thank you for joining us maybe every 2 weeks, now,
given your frequency in Melbourne.
PM: ( inaudible)
ends.