PRIME. MINISTER
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW BETWEEN ALAN JONES ( 2UE) AND PRIM4E
MINISTER, BOB HAWKS.
16 MARCH 1990
H OE PROOF ONLY
JONES: My special guest between now and half past eight, the
Prime Minister of Australia, Mr Hawke. Thank you for your time.
PM: Good to be with you, Alan.
JONES: Prime Minister, can I use an analogy that you might
appreciate, if you don't mind being called the Vo Rogue of
Australian politics. Getting on a bit in years, still the crowd
favourite, carrying a lot of weight in the saddle, form a bit
patchy, but in this latest outing appears to be leading all the
way. Are you still in front?
Pm: well, we seem to be but I want to make it quite clear I am
not complacent. I think it's a hard campaign and I'll be going
flat out until a week tonight.
JONES: Before we tackle those issues you've been talking about
for the last weeks, can we just take one foreign policy issue,
which I'm sure all Australians are interested in? How up to date
are you on the Papua New Guinean position whereby apparently
there was an insurrection that we knew nothing about?
PH: I spoke to Rabbie Namaliu last night. I rang and had quite
a long conversation with him because, as you know, I have a very,
very close interest in what's happening up there as any
Australian Prime Minister should. And the Prime Minister assures
mg. these things: one, that there was no support for Tohian's
dxunken escapade
JONES: Yes, he got drunk apparently.
PM: From within the armed forces from within the Army. And very
little from within the police. He says that the Opposition has
been central in their support of his position because they
recognise the implications of giving any encouragement to that
sort of insurrection. And he seems confident from the discussion
I had with him, Alan, that things are under control. I took the
opportunity, of course, of assuring him of the Australian
Government's complete commitment to constitutional processes in
Papua New Guinea.
JONES; Yes, it's a difficult place. Whether it is ungovernable
or not remains to be seen. Prime Minister
PM: Very difficult to
JONES: The Reserve Bank. Could we just start with the Reserve
Bank and the question of interest rates? Do you acknowledge that
it's a fully autonomous statutory authority?
PM: Yes. And I also acknowledge that it operates under the
legislation and that under the legislation there are not only the
opportunlities, but the requirements for consultation and
discussion between the Government and the Reserve Bank.
Processes which are always followed with complete propriety by my
Treasurer and by the Governor of the Reserve Bank and the Board.
JONES: But the Board make the decisions about policy, don't
they? PM: Well, to put it as simply as that is not the case. They
don't JONES: Under the Act, they do though.
PM: That it is the case under the Act that there is provision
for discussion and that is what follows. And what happened
before this election campaign started, for instance
JONES: But It's a pretty....
PM: Wait a minute, let me finish. What happened before the
campaign started was that there were discussions between the
Treasurer and the Governor. And out of those discussions, then,
there was a meeting of the Board and the Board made the decision
which brought down prime rates.
JONES: But it's a pretty loaded statement, isn't it, that you've
made to say that we will be discussing it, presumably interest
rates, and I hope I quote you accurately with them....
PM: ( Inaudible)
JONES: Yeah, I'm trying to. With them on the basis that
interest rates should come down.
PM: It's not like that at all.
JONESS It's a bit of big stick stuff, isn't it?
PM: No, no. On the contrary. It's the obligation. It's the
obligation of the Government to let the Reserve Bank know what
the policy and the position of the Government is. That's always
been the case the case under the previous Governmeflt... the
case under this Government. And we have been in a position where
we've been able to act in complete propriety and sympathy with
the Governor who was appointed by the previous Governm~ ent that
was Bob Johnson as well as with the Governor we ' ye appointed.
JONES: So you've said that interest rates should come down? Now
before the West Australian election, you said they'd be down by
Christmas. PM: Yeah, well, we've been over that. Now let me make it quite
clear. Like every economist in the public and private sector, at
that stage I and the Government underestimated the strength and
9demand in the Australian economy. And I've publicly conceded
that. And with the strength and demand that went through last
year, in f act, rates had to stay high. The important thing now
is that, as you appreciate, ( inaudible) in the media in the last
24 hours,. the banks are saying they expect rates to come down
under the policies that we've got in place.
JONES: Do you underestimate, though, the gravity of the problem?
I mean, the facts of interest rates, as you've been telling
everybody, is because of the debt. There's no attempt and
I'll talk about this in a minute but seemingly to stabilise the
debt PM: On the contrary. On the contrary. There is. We've got the
three major policies in place to do that. Firstly, our wages
policy. We've got a predictable wages outcome which is making
Australian industry more competitive. There's enormous growth
in the export of manufactured goods. And the figures that came
out yesterday, Alan, # seethe figures that came out yesterday-
P the December quarter balance of payment figures are accepted by
every economic commentator as showing a turnaround in the
position. So much so that there's been there's been a
reduction in the ( inaudible) rates today.
JONESt Take that point. I said to stabilise the debt that would
taquire the Prime Minister to be able to tell the electorate from
March 24, that the debt would stay where it is today. Now to do
that, as I understand it, would require in real terms, imports to
fall by three percent, exports to grow by five percent that's
impossible. P14: Not from the first day of the 25th
JONES: That's what stabilising the debt means.
PM: No, don't misrepresent me. I said that it is a legitimate
target to do that within three years. That's what I said.
JONES: But you'll have the debt continuing.
PM: *...... 0stabilisation of the debt is to get your current
account deficit as an acceptable proportion of the gross domestic
product. And I am saying that we've got the three fundamental
policies in place to do that. The wages policy, which is making
our industry more competitive. And importantly, Alan,
importantly.... a budget surplus. in regard to the f irst one,
they will have a wages explosion. In respect of the second,
where we have done what no Government has ever done before, for
the past three years, budget surplus 17 billion dollars paid
of f every cent of overseas debt of the Commonwealth Government.
The other mob will blow the surplus. And thirdly, a
superannuation plan which, by the end of this decade, will give
S us between six and seven hundred billion dollars in
superannuation funds, which will mean that Australian industry
will be able to call upon domestic savings and not need to borrow
overseas. Now those three fundamental policies are in place to
be able
JONES; You just raised another question. I just want to repeat
I find it impossible for you to believe that you'd be
telling the electorate that you could stabilise the debt which
would require imports to reduce by three percent a year in real
terms when the average growth of them in recent years has been
about 22 percent growth. You've got to cut that back to three
percent and get exports up. And you tell me that all these
policies can contain that debt. I'm saying that the public...
PM: I'm simply saying to you that if you look at the December
quarter balance of payment figures, which were published
yesterday, that there you see what is happening. A turn
around in the nett export position. I mean, I've got the figures
there, I can go to them. They show a significant increase in the
export-trend. A decline in the import trend.
JONES: Sure, but...
PM: Now those things are happening. On the basis of that I
-don't say it's going to be stabilised tomorrow. But what I have
said, Alan, is it15 a legitimate target in the light of the
evidence that emerges that within a three year period, I would
hope, that you would get to that stabilisation period. Not
tomorrow, three years.
JONES: When the country, of which you're Prime Minister, of 16
million people
PM: Seventeen million.
JONES: Seventeen million. With a nett f oreign debt of about
118 billion....
PM A hundred and eighteen.
JONES: A hundred and eighteen billion dollars
PM, Yeah.
JONES: The whole of the Eastern Bloc has a population of 400
million and their nett debt is 105 billion dollars.
P14: Nonsense.
JONES: It's not nonsense, it's true.
0 PM: Absolute nonsense.
JONES: Well, tell me what their foreign debt is.
PM: I don't know, but I know it's not that.
JONES: I'm saying it's that.
PKS! Yeah, where did you got that from?
JONES: I'm telling you it's that. I wouldn't be telling you if
It wasn't the case.
PM: I'm saying I don't believe it.
JONES: I'll show you the source, but I'll come back.
PM: Okay.
JONES: I'll come back to the paint I was making. I'll come back
to the point I was making before.
PM: Righto.
JONES: You've got the growth in foreign debt and you're saying
Thbat you can stabilise that? Six percent of GDP paid f or the
foreign debt in 1980, now we need 32 percent. Now, I'm saying
this debt has occurred
PM: C( inaudible)
JONES: No, no, no. But you're saying you can turn this
around....
PHI I am saying that what you have in respect of what'Is under
the Government's controll we have not only turned around, we are
now a nett international creditor to the tune of four billion
dollar~ s. Sixty five percent of the debt, Alan, is in the private
hands, and those...
JONES: Yeah, but you don't
PM: Now, just a minute, Alan, , you've had your say. Just give
me a little bit of an opportunity for a response...
JONES: ( inaudible)
PM: Thank you very much. Now, when you look at that f oreign
debt, have a look at the other side of it. Look at what Access
Economics has said. They've said 45 billion dollars that they've
identified of investment actually under construction or totally
committed which will be bringing in an additional 5 billion
0dollars a year of export earnings. So the other side of those
debt figures that you look at have got to be seen as constituting
what will help us in the years ahead to overcome the debt
problem. It has been investment to restructure Australian
industry. Now what I'm saying is that what you need to do is to
move up to a point where your current account def icit is at an
acceptable proportion of GDP, in the order of about two and a
half to three percent. I believe we can do that because of the
fact that we're talking about firstly, that we are making a
more competitive Australian industry..,. 54 percent increase in
manufactured exports in the last four years. A 69 percent
increase in exports of services. Secondly, we've got a budgetary
policy which will mean that the Government is releasing its
demand and, in fact, creating a new situation where the private
sector is able to call upon the Australian savings. And thirdly,
a massive increase in Australian savings through superannuation.
Now, all those things together, in our judgement, and I think
importantly, in the judgement of the market, means that we are
going to be able effectively in this three year time scale, to
tackle this problem.
JONES: Prime Minister, we've just had a world economy, in the
last five, six, seven years, which has been in good shape,
.6we ' ye had record returns from our commodity sector record
returns in other words, our export value and volume has never
tten better, yet we have record debt. We have record interest
rates. We have record levels relative to the overseas
PM We don't have record interest rates. We don't have record
interest rates. The 90-day bill rate was 22 percent in April of
1982. JONES: Well, relatively.
PM: Well you can't have it relatively.
JONES: Well, hang on. Here we are in Australia
P14: How would you like that in rugby, to have a relative record?
JONESt Hang on. Here's The Economist,.. the Australia's interest
rates is at the top of the chart on a chart of The Economist last
week 19.* 5 percent prime lending
PM ( inaudible) Australia..*..
JONESs Hang on PM, hang on PM. Belgium *.. wellw# e ' ve got to
compete with these people to make a quid.
PM: Yeah.
JONES: You keep saying that. Belgium 13.25, Canada, 14, France
11, Germany 10. We're 19.5. Record interest rates. Record
debt. Record levels of inflation. And now unemployment
yesterday, the highest it's been in twelve months. True, isn't
1. t?
PX: Now, come on. Can I have a chance now?
JONES: No, but is that true? The highest for twelve months?
PM: The highest for twelve months, yeah.
JONES: Is it? Now, do you think the figures that came out
yesterday are current?
PM: The figures that came out in regard to employment
JONES: Are current?
PM: Yes, I think they're current.
JONES: And that's the position today?
PM: Yeah.
JONES: Now that's the latest statistics. Is it the latest
-ftemployment reality? Or do you think it's worse since those
figures came out.
PM: No, I wouldn't think it's worse.
JONES: Can I ask you to drive this morning just down here to the
Oak Club the Oak Club at Neutral Bay we're talking interest
rates have a look on the right hand side, you'll find fifty
shops that are vacant as a result of interest rates.
PHM: Okay.-
JONES: i Fi fty. They're closing down. Do you understand that's
happening out there?
PM: I understand it. There's hardship, yes. I said it in the
policy statement. Now..... have you finished your Speech? And can
I have a response? or are you going on?
JONES: No, it was a question. it wasn't a speech.
PM: Okay. Alright. Now let's now let's go to some of the
assertions. Okay? Firstly, you talked about record interest
rates. Now we're talking about this country. It is simply not
true. The record interest rate is under the previous Government
when the ninety day bill rate was 22 percent, in April of 1982.
There have not been record interest rates under my Government.
But now we've come to employment, my dear friend. There you are
with your tongue so f irmly set in your cheek it's nearly
hitting me over this side of the room. I mean you talk about
employment... JONES: I said unemployment.
PM: And unemployment. Employment and unemployment. Okay, let's
talk about it. Under my Government.....
JONES: I don't want to debate unemployment because you've done a
great job. You've done a great job.
PM: Okay. We'll talk about the other
JONESs Yesterday ( inaudible) losing jobs
PM: I thought it was my turn.
JONES: No, why don't you talk about unemployment?
PM: Okay, and I want to.
JONES: Okay. Go on. Go on.
Okay, thank you. The unemployment rate that we inherited
JONES: I can't remember that one.
PM: No, I bet you can't. You wouldn't want to talk about it.
JONES: But it's so long ago.
pm: But I'm saying is that we've massively brought down the
unemployment rate massively brought it down in this country.
The situation in that when I came to office, in the previous
year, a quarter of a million Australians were thrown on the
unemployment scrapheap, and we have consistently for the whole of
the period that we've been in office, brought down unemployment.
Now, you told me that we needed to slow the economy down because
interest rates were too high. We've slowed the economy down
somewhat by having high interest rates. Because we're dealing
with the problem we started with the international debt. But
then you tell me that because you're doing the right thing Mr
Prime Minister by slowing the economy down to deal with the
international debt problem and the slowing down of the
economy.... JONES a Did I say that?
PM: Yeah, well, that's what you started off, Alan, by saying
that the major problem is the question of debt
JONES: Oh, but I didn't say the only way to do it was to
PM: Well, what's the other way?
JONES: ( inaudible) interest rates
PM: Well, what's the other way? What's the other way?
JONES: I'm not the Prime Minister.
PM: Well, I'm telling you the three arms of policy, my friend.
One: f iscal policy. And fiscal policy, I've done it. Never
been done before in this country. Three years in a row of
surplus; 17 billion dollars. In all their years, the
conservatives could never run the business of this country to get
a surplus.
JONES: You've grabbed a lot of revenue, have a look at that
figure. It was 41 billion in 82, 83. The residue is now 8 91
billion... PM: And do you know what the revenue figure is? The percentage
take that we take from the gross domestic product is the same as
-when we came to office. We haven't increased it by one fraction
of a percentage point....
JONES: That is true.
PM: Thank you.
JONESs Now, can I just show you that chart there? We were
talking about....
PM: What about unemployment? Can I have ( inaudible) at that?
JONES: Well, I I... is there an answer?
PM: The answer is that we have massively reduced unemployment in
this country. We've had a rate of employment growth twice as
fast as the rest of the world.
JONES: Yes. Because that employment growth comes from the very
debt that you're talking about, doesn't it? You keep telling me
that the debt is in the private sector
P14: And 93 percent 93 percent of that 1.6 million new Jobs in
the private sector
JONES: Yeah, I know. But you keep Baying to me it's not our
problem, the debt. That's because all these people are
investing. But you take the credit for the jobs.
PM: No. What I take the credit for is creating an environment
within which we've been able to have a rate of employment growth
under my Government five times as fast as under the predecessors.
JONES: Can I
PM: Who.. who. whose economic policies don't let's talk
history their current policies for the future would mean a
return to massive unemployment and massive hikes in interest
rates because because, Alan, don't lets avoid it because
they will have a wages explosion and they will have an interest
rate explosion because they've got a six to seven billion dollar
unfunded set of promises.
JONES: Prime Minister, can I just show you that diagram there?
There's no need for my listeners to see it,.*. e.. but the red
indicates expenditure and the other colour indicates
productivity.... PM: Yep.
JONES: I mean,. the gap between expenditure and productivity is
enormous. You can see that. We're living beyond our means.
-kren't we?
PM: That's precisely why you had to have high interest rates.
There's a simple statistic, you don't need that. I mean, I'll
give you the simple statistic. Last year, consumption increased
by 8 percent, production by 4 percent and that gap of 4 percent
was made up by imports. We had to lower imports, therefore,
tighter monetary policy....
JONES: There's a whole heap of people out there who have never
imported anything in their life. And are paying interest rates
at 20 percent never imported anything in their life.
PHI But every person in Australia consumes an imported product.
There's not a person in Australia who doesn't consume an imported
product. And this is the height of stupidity, if I may say so
with respect, to say you have a little group of people who import
and the rest of Australia hasn't anything to do with imports.
There is not one of our 17 million Australian citizens who is not
an importer in terms of consuming imports. Every one of us does.
And we were doing it to such a level in that last year that we
could not sustain that level of imports. We had to slow the
level of activity down and we've done it.
JONES: Can I just refeor you to a page out of the Budget papers
talk about the accord and wages. and you talk about a
wages explosion this diagram shows that almost the whole of
the underlying inflation rate in this country, is consumed by
market wages. There's the figure and you'll notice that the
lines coincide almost entirely. Don't you think our wages
growth whatever you might claim the achievement of it is the
wages growth is unaf fordable? Mr Keating said a couple of weeks
ago that we were looking at GDP growth of what.... a GDP growth of
about one and a half percent. But a wages growth of seven. I
mean if you do that in a school assignment, if you did an
assignment for me and it was so bad that I could only give you
one and a half because that was all you were worth but I said
well, don't worry about it Bob, I'll give you seven because it
looks a bit better and it'll make you happier the rest of the
kids would say you're a cheat. You're giving him something he
hasn't earned. Now, how can we give seven percent wage growth
when our gross domestic product has only likely to increase by
one and a half percent?
PM: Well, just let me make it quite clear and even the
opposition understands this. That in the setting of wages,
productivity is not the only consideration. You've got to take
account of what happens to prices and you've also got to take
account in this situation of what people are doing in terms of
restructuring their whole award situation. And the fact is that
under the seven percent wages outcome that's been negotiated in
the beginning of this year, the expectation is and is accepted
-by economic commentators that there will be a reduction in the
rate of inflation. You've got to set the predictability of the
wages outcome that we've put against the certainty against the
certainty that under the policies of the Opposition there will
be a wages explosion. Because what they are saying is the
Government gets out, you don't have a centralised system, you
just leave it for the employers and employees to fix it. So don't
let's be theoretical. You know what would have happened last
year under the policy of the Opposition, you would have had a
thirty percent increase in salaries for the pilots because they
said let that happen. And once you got a thirty percent increase
for the pilots, under the Opposition policy, then hey presto,
happens everywhere else like it did at the beginning of the
And the economy collapses
JONES: You keep telling us that the union movement is very
responsible. it was when you were leading it, wasn't it?
PM: And it is now.
JONIES. And it wouldn't prejudice jobs by seeking wage increases
that weren't affordable, would it?
PM You ask the head of the business organisations in this
country whether or not it is a fact that what Kelty and the ACTU
have been doing in the last two years is knocking back wage
increases which people employers have been going to their door
knocking on their door and saying we want to give the
increase. The ACTU have said no, we are sticking to the accord.
There would have been any amount of opportunities for the trade
union movement in this country in the last few years and you
know it because you've talked about it. There's been any amount
of opportunities for them to take extra wage increases. They
wouldn't. That's what the pilots dispute was about.
JONES: Do you think, though, that
PM: And if they had their way, if the Opposition had their
way, that would be it. Free f or all. Pilots get their thirty
percent. Everyone else says alright, the pilots have thirty
percent, can we have thirty percent too?
JONES: Yeah.* We've been through that and...
PM: And you agreed with me.
JONES: Yeah, I did agree with you about that. But that doesn't
mean to say that what you're doing currently in wages policy is
affordable.
JONES: Yes, we've been through that and-
PM: And you agreed with me.
JONES: Yes, I did agree with you on that but that
doesn't mean to say that what you're doing currently now
in wages policy is affordable. But I just want to take
the point that out there I just wondered whether you
shouldn't have run a campaign where you gave people
nothing and said we've all got to work harder and get off
our backsides. Professor Helen Hughes, whom you
previously I think acknowledged knows a bit about what
she's saying, she said this, not long ago, except for
continuous process industries in Australia, factories
typically work one shift, four and a half hour week.
Your capital invested in buildings and machinery is
therefore used 20% or less of the time that is available.
It's idle almost 80% of the time. Over a year, taking
into account public holidays which are amongst the
highest in number in industrial countries, Australia's
competitors in manufacturing typically work their capital
50-60% of the time. Now this is what it's about isn't
it. What are you going to do
PM: Ok, I'll tell you what we're doing. I'll tell you
what we're doing. That's very interesting. Now just
give me a chance to respond to that. I'll tell you where
.1 went to in the campaign. Down in Melbourne to the
Pacific Dunlop new tyre factory out there in the suburbs
of Melbourne. New factory, just established. Right
round the clock, right round the clock they were working,
with a plant which they say will have the most modern
technology in the world. They sent people for 12 months
-managers, workers over to the United States, brought
it back, and they've got the best technology in the
world. That's what's happening. I mean, and it's
happening, as they acknowledge, why because of us.
What did Alan Jackson just say yesterday? I'll tell you
what Alan Jackson said yesterday the head of BPR Nylex
-announcing his record profit. He said that's been able
to be done because of this Government. This Government
has created the best industrial relations environment
we've ever had. And he is now not only competing in
Australia but on the basis of his Australian operations
is also operating overseas. We are becoming infinitely
more competitive. We are having new practices, around
the clock hours being worked and shifts, new attitudes
both by management and workers. Now I've been I'll
take you into the factories where it's happening. It's
no good talking about the past because the past is the
inheritance of 30 years of conservative government.
We've turned it round. You haven't got a 54% increase in
manufactured exports because of the past. You've got it
because of the present policies of this Government.
JONES: Can I use that word inheritance. Just supposing
that when you've passed on, that is for everybody who
passes on, you had a few assets, and including in amongst
them was the family house that you and Hazel had and you
decided to leave that to your daughter. But she already
had a home and she wanted to educate the kids so she
thought well I'll sell Dad's house. She would have to
pay, under your Government, a capital gains tax on that
sale. Isn't that a death duty?
PM: No. I wish you'd get the facts right. It applies
to assets before ' 85. The situation is
JONES: The house you bought before
PM: There is no proposition of an inheritance tax, only
a tax will apply if subsequently and then it would be
JONES: ( inaudible)
PM: Difference in real value
JONES: Yes, sure.
PM: Difference in real value between the time of the
inheritance and the time
JONES: Death duties.
PM: It is not.
JONES: Hang on. Your daughter's got her own house and
Dad's house he bought in 1930.
PM: She doesn't have to pay any tax at all through the
fact of inheritance. A death duty is something which you
know, if you know anything about economics, a death duty
is something that applies
JONES: ( inaudible)
PM: through the fact of inheritance.
JONES: Answer my question.
PM: I'm answering your question. Because you're saying
death duties, and you know my dear friend, you know that
a death duty is something that would attract the tax
through the fact of inheritance.
JONES: I just want to
PM: No, don't dodge me because you know you're wrong.
JONES: I'm not dodging you. answering my question.
PM: I'm answering your question and saying no death duty
because there is no duty which is attracted through the
fact of inheritance.
JONES: Alright, well let me change
PM: Change, because you're wrong.
JONES: change the emphasis.
PM: You're wrong.
JONES: No I'm not.
PM: You said death duties. You said death duties and
it's not a death duty.
JONES: Let's forget the names then because we're just
arguing semantics.
PM: No we're not. We're arguing the fact that you said
it was a death duty and you're accepting now that you're
wrong. JONES: No, I'm not accepting I'm wrong.
PM: It's not a death duty.
JONES: I'll admit I'm wrong if I am wrong, but I just
want to go back to
PM: Will you accept Alan that it is not a death duty?
JONES: My listeners want you to answer this question.
When you and Hazel leave the house to your daughter and
you bought the house in ' 35 and Roslyn decides to stay
in the house she's living in now, says she doesn't want
Dad's house but she needs the return from the sale of
that house to educate the kids, so she says we'll sell
Dad's house. Does she pay a tax on that sale?
PM: Yes, she
JONES: Yes or no.
PM: Wait a minute. Let me answer the question. First
of all, through the fact of acquiring it, she doesn't.
Now if there is
JONES: ( inaudible)
PM: Why don't you let me finish.
JONES: You said she doesn't pay any tax.
PM: I'm telling you she doesn't pay any tax through the
fact of inheritance. Correct?
JONES: ( inaudible)
PM: Alan Jones started off this proposition by saying
it's a death duty. Now Alan Jones knows as well as he
knows anything that Alan Jones is wrong because the
characteristic of a death duty is that you pay a tax, you
pay a tax through the fact of inheritance.
JONES: Would Roslyn pay a tax on that sale? Would she?
PM: Wait a minute. When she sells it, if there is an
increase in the value of the house
JONES: ( inaudible)
PM: inheritance and the time of sale, a real
increase, not a increase, she will pay tax on that.
JONES: So she is going to pay tax on that.
PM: On that basis. But not through the fact of
inheritance, as Alan Jones started off saying. And Alan
Jones was wrong.
JONES: Alright Prime Minister, you're a busy man. I
S thank you for your time. I must end this by
congratulating you on the fact that the campaign, the
Labor Party has thrown it all into your lap. I think
that there are many people out there, whether they're
going to vote for you or not, think you've done a
colossal job carrying the radio, television, and public
presentation of the campaign. I wonder where some of
those people are that were wanting to replace you twelve
months ago Prime Minister. They haven't been too visible
during the course of the campaign.
PM: That's not too fair. If you're talking about the
Treasurer in particular, he's been doing a very hard job.
JONES: You've carried the most of it though haven't you?
Are you tired?
PM: No I'm not. I feel great actually. I feel great.
SJONES: I see a report here that if you get beaten you'll
want to stand for the leadership of the Opposition.
PM: No, no, acutally get it right. You can't get
death duties right and you can't get that one right.
What I said
JONES: I've established that your daughter will pay tax
PM: No, no, I hope you'll read the transcript of that
one and see what you said in the first place and how you
had to backtrack.
JONES: Leadership of the Opposition, is that a position
that attracts you?
PM: No, not particularly, not particularly. But I
simply said that if they wanted me to consider it I'd
look at it. But I said I'd do no more than look at it.
But it's entirely hypothetical. If you want to look at
leadership, can I just share one thing with you mate.
What do you think about this, where you have, in the
second last week of the campaign, the leader who was
dumped, John Howard, being given the opportunity down on
a Melbourne talkback program, being given the opportunity
to say he believed Andrew Peacock when Andrew said he
didn't know anything about the push. And Don Chipp gave
him the opportunity, and he refused to say he believed
Andrew Peacock. Which led Chippy to say there's only one
inference you can draw from your reply John and that is
that you don't believe Mr Peacock. Not a bad situation
is it, in the second last week of the campaign, to have
John Howard in the position where he will not say that he
believes what Andrew Peacock is saying. leadership
on the other side.
JONES: But like Vo Rogue you do have a lot of lead in
0 the saddle. The people out there really are suffering
aren't they, and hurting, on interest and those sorts of
things, unemployment.
PM: Sure, but Alan I said that in my policy speech.
Some hard decisions have had to be taken but the point is
that we've now got in this country Alan and I think you
basically share this view we've got the building blocks
for an enormous future in this country. We are getting a
restructured industry. I think you'd share my pride in
the fact that we are now exporting manufactured goods
that we never could before. We are doing that
JONES: Sydney Airport when are you going to fix up
Sydney Airport? That's tourism. Millions of dollars
down the drain.
PM: But listen, look what's happening, the latest
statistics in today's and yesterday's papers. They are
coming back. They are coming back.
JONES: Yes, but the potential is there and you're not
realising it because some bloke in your Party holds the
seat near the Airport.
PM: On the contrary. Who was the bloke who said we'll
take the tough decisions?
JONES: But we've had enough environmental impact
statements haven't we? We need an airport.
PM: The work is being done. The work is being done and
I've made the decision that the third runway should go
ahead. We've got to it's perfectly proper that people
should have the opportunity to put their position about
environmental considerations. I would've thought that
you'd agree with that. You just can't ride roughshod
over the legitimate rights of citizens to put a point of
view about environmental considerations. I mean we're
not getting to that sort of society where I sit up there
in Canberra and say that's what the answer is and I
ignore the interests of other
JONES: Do you reckon if we had an interview here and you
were Prime Minister in four months time we'd be talking
about your decision to export more uranium?
PM: Export more uranium? No we wouldn't be talking
about that.
JONES: We wouldn't be?
PM: No we wouldn't be. I mean the fact of the matter is
that with the three uranium mines we've got mate, we're
battling to get a reasonable price for
JONES: Do you reckon under Bob Hawke's Prime
S Ministership, if it continues, that the Kakadu decision
that was taken would be a firm decision or would we be
sort of thinking the election's over now
PM: Of course it's a firm decision.
JONES: hole in the ground that Gareth Evans talked
about. PM: Have you been to Kakadu?
JONES: I have been to Kakadu.
PM: Well I would've thought Alan you would've been on my
side. JONES: your predecessor declared it part of the
great national heritage.
PM: He started off on the first part but then we took it
ahead and we've got a position now where the successors
to Malcolm Fraser would desecrate his heritage by saying
that they'd have exploration in Stage II and State III.
JONES: Gareth Evans called it a hole in the ground
didn't he?
PM: No he didn't.
JONES: What did he call it?
PM: He referred to some of the area as clapped out
buffalo country. That was his phrase some of it, some
of it. But the fact is that where they want to mine is
right on the headwaters of all that water that goes into
the Kakadu Park. I'll tell you what, as far as I'm
concerned, if there is a doubt about mining which might
ruin that marvellous world heritage of Kakadu National
Park, I'm coming down on the side of being careful.
JONES: Professor Pennington, is he a bloke that you
respect? PM: Professor Pennington, I know him, I don't know him
very well.
JONES: He headed up your enquiry though into the health
system in 1984.
PM: Yes, he was in it.
JONES: He wrote a letter to The Australian recently in
which he said that there needs to be a broad enquiry,
that Medicare has failed, the incentives are nearly all
in the wrong direction. He says rising costs, closed
public beds, lengthening waiting lists, crises in
critical care, lack of funding for new equipment or
treatment, all illustrate the problem.
PM: There are problems in the health system. No-one has
ever said... But the fundamental fact is that you can
have an alternative in this country. You can have a
government, that is us, which has demonstrated that it
can have a system which delivers health care to all
Australians in an equitable way, or you can have the
Opposition whose spokesman stands up and says publicly
that the record, the Liberals and National Party's record
in health is deplorable and I don't have to remind you in
government. They cannot run the health system of this
country. They have said it themselves. They said we are
hopeless. And they're right.
JONES: The concern out there is that you might be still
in Government and these problems will persist. A caller
rang me, can I just tell you this, a caller rang me
earlier this week. He said he'd had quadruple by-pass
surgery. The doctor's fee was $ 3500, the schedule fee
$ 1385, the Medicare refund $ 1038. So he had to pay
$ 2215. He's paying the levy, he's paying private health
insurance. PM: And I'll tell you what the alternative is. Let that
fellow have the alternative. And what you'll have in
this country is a situation where millions of our fellow
Australians will not be covered. They will not be
getting any assistance and they'll be returned to the
situation we had before where millions of Australians had
hanging over their heads the threat of penury coming from
doctors's bills and hospital bills.
JONES: Hang on, you're a sensitive and compassionate
sort of bloke. This bloke's just a day's work, he's
just working. He suddenly collapses on the floor. He's
had a massive heart attack and they ask him to have this
quadruple by-pass surgery. The public hospital queues
are a mile long, he goes into the private sector, and
he's up, he's got everything. He's got top of the chart
insurance, he's got the Medicare levy, he's got to pay
the gap and he's up for 5700 bucks. Where do you find
that money? Why can't you let him insure for the gap?
PM: I'll tell you what we have done and why we've done
it. Why we have the system now that we do have is
because in the absence of the Medicare-type system, which
is universal, you will have, as we had when we came to
office, two million Australians uncovered in any way,
uncovered in any way. Now I ' m not prepared to do that.
JONES: No, let them have that, let them have Medicare.
But why don't you let this bloke insure for the gap? Why
can he not insure for the difference between the schedule
fee and what he's..
PM: Once you start to do that you weaken the whole basic
structure that we've got.
0 JONES: There are queues a mile long. out of the
queues. PM: Do you remember the NSW State election here? You do
remember it. And do you remember what the Liberals said
here before the 1988
JONES: doesn't mean I do.
PM: I'll tell you. Because the Liberals said, it's one
of the things they got right, they said the question of
hospital queues is not a matter to do with Medicare, it's
a matter to do with State Government policy. That's what
the Liberals of NSW said in the 1988 election. And they
were right.
JONES: You got part of your surplus by squeezing the
States. PM: No I didn't.
JONES: Yes you did.
PM: And in this election campaign who's squeezing the
States that mob on the other side. Mr Peacock and
Hewson and Blunt are going to rip off the State of NSW
another $ 122 million to pay, help to pay for their
promises to put billions of dollars back into the pockets
of the rich. That's what the citizens of NSW are facing
in this election. From Hawke, not a cent being taken off
for the grants in NSW. But under the Peacock policy,
$ 122 million being taken off. I ask your citizens of
NSW, your listeners, to say does that make a lot of
sense, that they have a $ 122 million taken off them so
that billions of dollars can be put in the pockets of
Peacock's wealthy mates.
JONES: I know you're busy. Are you going to drive past
Neutral Bay and the Oaks and have a look at all those
empty PM: Yes, yes.
JONES: Thanks for your time.
PM: Are you going to vote for us mate?
JONES: I'll vote for whom I think on the day is going to
do the best job for Australia.
PM: Thanks mate.
JONES: Thanks for your time.
ends