24 November 1989
E&OE PROOF ONLY
SATTLER The Prime Minister is in the studio now and some bloke
Just called me up and said I wouldn't be game to call you the
silver haired bodgie. Have you been called that before to your
face?
PM: No not to my face.
SATTLER: How would you react if I did that?
PM: If you feel that you need to do that Howard be my guest.
SATTLER: I don't need to do that he obviously felt some
compulsion to do that a* I will just pass that en to yeu, as an
opening bowl if you like?
PM: That's a pretty easy one to get a four off actually, I hope
it's as easy for our batsmen today.
SATTLER: Are you going to get down there?
SATTLERI Would be nice to see Tom get a ton.
PM: That's what I said to you, it would be nice to see Tom get a
ton I have picked Tom moody in my Prime MinisterU eleven more
than any other batsmen and unfortunately he has not got going.
In the first game he hit a six straight over the site board which
was still rising when it went over the site board but he got out
at about 22 I think. I have always thought I saw in Tom Moody
the makings of a great cricketer. I hope he grabs his chance
today, I wish him very well.
SATTLER; Alright I think the big talking point this morning, it certainly has been on this program is the Supreme Court decision in Melbourne yesterday which I guess if confirmed by a compensation payout in a few weeks might cost the pilots up to million. Are you happy about that?
PM: I believe you have been saying that you would imagine I would be gleeful about it. You are wrong about that.
SATTLER: That's correct.
PM I don't get any glee or comfort and I wish Howard you would be good enough to remember exactly what I have been saying through the course of this matter. It was Bob Hawke and others who pleaded with the pilots not to take themselves outside the system. I said in the beginning, stay inside the conciliation and arbitration system. That in where the processes are. I said
if you go outside the system then you are outside it, you expose y0ml%& WllW& a4& aL.~ a 1L. n p. 1.1a
that system. It was Hawke who pleaded with them to stay in because I said if you go outside then you are outside. But they,
you will recall and this is what the Supreme Court -judge has
found. He said it is the Federation who wag spoiling for a
fight, the words of the judge. He said they made the accusation,
the pilots, in this hearing in the'Supreme Court they accused the
Government and the airlines and the ACTU of a conspiracy that we
were spoiling for a fight against the union. Now the Supreme
Court Judge has found the opposite. He aid and On thA AVid~ nCAf
it is the case that they were the ones who were spoiling for a
fight and outside the system. Now what has happened is a matter
of a deep regret to me. That's why I warned them I said don't go
outside because then you get exposed to all these things. Now
far from getting any satisfaction, I mean it's just as a matter
of enormous regret to me that by grossly inept leadership of the
Federation that they have exposed their members to this outcome.
Now the facts are as I have put them from day one and as the
Industrial Relations Commission has now confirmed last week-that
it is ope n and always has been open to the pilots to operate
within the system. The Arbitration Commission has said these are
the things you need to do accept the three conditions of the
Industrial Relations Commission which is the same as for anyone
else that is in their case lift the embargo on their members
joining the airlines, secondly accept the decisions of the
Commission and thirdly be bound by the national wage case
guidelines. Commission said you do those things which is what
every other organisation and workers has to do, you do that you
can then make an application, the Commission will be bound by the
awards which is now the contract and thirdly if you then become
bound you can make an application to vary that contract that
order if you think that it's not right you can seek to have it
bound. Now that's always been the case and it was by their own
Mha L hJj.% A * i. Lt. L L J'* vw WZ, LiA..
Court that ' they decided to take themselves dutside the
protection of the Industrial Relations Commission. They
deliberately chose to do that and now when they have been hit
with those consequences, you know they wonder where they are.
SATThER: But you have almost, you and Sir Peter Abeles got them
where you want them now haven't you.
PDM. I may ao well havo not spent my last five minutes talking
with you, got them where I want them. I have just spent five
minutes Howard telling you that, don't you understand plain
language, didn't you hear what I said for five minutes. Didn't
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five minutes telling you that that's exactly where I didn't want
them. Do you understand that's what I was saying for 5 minutes.
SATTLERs Yes.
PM1 Well why do you now say to me now. I have got them where I want them.
SATTLER: Alright on the other hand then if you didn't want them then and you say you don't, is there any door open to any degree now for them to come back with inside the system?
PM: Again, I have just wasted, haven't you just heard me saying
I have spelled out, spent two or three minutes spelling out the
door. I Just spent that time telling you what the door was.
SATTLER: Yes I understand you.
PM: Well why are you asking me to do it again.
SATTLER: What place have they now got in this whole dip~ g, the
DllntFi A It. * L LL ruut again I have just given you with respect
Howard, I have given you that answer. I have told you that what
the Industrial Relations Commission is precise in what they have
been told as to what they can do if their is a place, let me
repeat it the Commission said three conditions that is lift the
embargo on your members fly with the major airlines. Two say
that you will accept the decisions of the Industrial Relations
Commission. Three say that you will be bound by the national wage
case guidelines. If you accept those three conditions which arthe
same as applied to every other organisation then you t
Federation can apply to the Industrial Relations Commission to k,
bound by the award and we will consider that. Three if you are
then by the Industrial Relations Commission accepted as being
bound then you can make an application to the Commission for a
variation of the award. Now I spelt that out a moment ago
that's the route that is open to them. But they have
consistently said no we won't do that but I have spelt it out in
the parliament, I have spelt it out publicly, I spelt it out
weeks aqo to soma nf their piloto in Xila Le in Victoria when we
were talking to them.
SATTLER: Well may be the union movement and representatives of
it have also misinterpreted your recent stand on the pilots and
on what you are saying now.
PM: How can that be when Bill Kelty who is the Secretary of the
ACTU who speaks for the trade union movement of Australia has
said precisely what I have been saying.
SATTLERs But they are concerned for the pilots at the moment.
PM: They are rightly concerned as I am. I have just expressed
my concern, I repeat for the third time on your program, this is
not where I, this is the last thing that I wanted. That's why I
pleaded with them Howard don't do this. Don't say that you are
different. They started in February of this year saying that
they were going to have a battle, that they were going to take on
and fight their employers, the Arbitration CommiRtfn. tho tva^
J % AA.. k WSW vernmont. They were going to take
everyone on this is in writing in their publication in February
of this year. Now remember that, that was the deliberate
PM ( cont) t calculated decisi~ on. They said
SATTLER: No one doubts-
PM; Now wait a minute-
SATTLER: They started it
PM: But I am not talking about started or finishing because I
don't want to claim a victory. Never been about trying to say
here is a fight and T am going to win. Never been it I am simply
trying to say they made the decision to take on everyone and
that's been found by the Supreme Court judge that they were the
ones that were spoiling for a fight. It was Hawks in my
traditional historical role of trying to be a mediator getting
things handled in a system of discussion and conciliation. I
pleaded with them I said do not do this, here is the avenue which
everyone else uses. And I said this settles it you haven't got
the right to destroy the Australian economy with a 30% wage claim
that you will fight outside the system because if they had been
able to do that, if we had let them go ahead then the whole
system was destroyed and the economy was destroyed because every
trade union, you talk about the reactions of the trade union, the
trade unions made it clear then what their relationship to the
pilots was. There was a very simple and direct relationship.
They said if the pilots succeed in the 30% we go for it too.
SATTLERt Well the pilots have since dropped that claim of course
because they were clearly losing the argument.
PM: But they have not, they have not said that they will come
into the arbitration system and operate as everyone else and
pursue their claim. That has been open to them up until today
it's still there. It's no good you saying they have dropped
their position. The full bench of the Commission told themi that
they could come in and process their claim but they will not do
it. BATTLERi What about the wider implications for the union
movement. This is what John Halfpenny had to say on the program
a little while ago or part of it.
HALFPENNY: T think that if you were to take a poll you know
around the union movement at the present time who is the least
popular, the Government or the pilots federation, I wouldn't like
to back on the outcome.
PM See T take absolutely no notice of John Ralfoenny. T mpn T
hav si Lwpvr for nauxpenny. I deal with Kelty and Crean, the
secretary and president of the Australian Council of Trade
Unions. Now this fellow Halfpenny
SATTLER: One of your former candiddtftfi fnr the Senate scat
PM I didn't pre-select him, I didn't pre-select him. The
situation quite clearly is that as far as Halfpenny is concerned
he doesn't like the Accord, he has been at odds with the
leadership of the trade union movement and the rest of the trade
union movement on wage restraint. The wage restraint which has
PM ( cont) t been responsible for creating more than 1.5 million
jobs in this country and ensuring that we don't have a wages
blowout. That sort of situation Halfpenny doesn't like. Now the
trade union leadership is understood from the beginning in this
pilots issue what was involved, that's why they pleaded also with
the pilots trade union to stay within the system. But what a
great paradox. Here you have at the beginning of the dispute the
trade union movement leadership telling the pilots stay within
the system otherwise this is going to happen, giving them all the
warning all the warning all the warning saying don't do it
because you will smash the whole system if you go the way you are
arnd yourself. And now when their warnings have been brought out
you have the Halfpenny's saying this. Now let me make it clear I
get no satisfaction whatsoever out of the decision about damages.
None at all and the fact is
SATTLER: Is that that you wouldn't support a claim for damages
of say up to $ 10 million.
PM: It's not a question of supporting they have exposed
themselves to the processes and the employers have taken it and
it's taken its course which we said would happen if you go
outside the system. But the important thing to understand is this
is not a pracdent it happecAed bwf~ uL" but the normal situation
f or Australian industrial relations is it doesn't happen because
there are processes within the conciliation and arbitration
system for resolving disputes so you never get to that situation.
SATTLER: Well people like HAlfpenny are taking about tho
implications for the union movement generally that unions now
will be scared to withdraw their labour or work restricted hours.
Do you see any wider implications at all?
PM The proposition is quite clear that if you look at the
experience of the last 6 years. Let's just look at the whole
experience not just take this, the whole 6 year.. The trade
union~ & gauvtjuwmL h1au found it appropriate to work within the.
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been a 60% reduction in disputes because they have seen that it
makes more-sense to negotiate their claims for wage movements in
the light of what's in the interest of the community as a whole.
SATTLER: So if you operate within the system it okay to withdraw
your labour.
PM Of courga there have boon dioputoo there have beeA aLL~ jkum
but it has been within the concept of not trying to smash what
it's worth in the interest of all your listeners. Your listeners
today all of us are better off because the trade union movement
has exercised wage restraibt. C We have had the lowest pattern of
wage movement in the post war history because the trade unions
have axoroiaod rontraint anid that'. ea~ abl* eI um Lu hiave empl~ oyment
growth five times faster than when the Liberals were in power,
more than twice as fast as the rate of wages growth for the rest
of the world and that's happened Howard precisely, precisely
because the unions have exercised wage restraint. Now the pilots
said to the rest of the trade union they said to the trade union
movement,, damn you you can exercise wage restraint we are not
going to we are going to go right outside the system of restraint
which all of you have exercised, we are going to use our
industrial muscle to grab 30% for us.
SATTLER: The airlines with the help of the Government now are
proceeding down a path which excludes the pilots federation.
PMT Tt Ig nnt T Vnn i. T. eeeLd I2 IL-. UWA L U W41tL
to be rude but I do not understand what is the point of telling
you something if you don't listen. we have not gone down the
road of trying to exclude the pilots federation
SATTLER: i sai it is happening
PM: You said us, we are not doing
SATTLERs Well the airlines are doing it and one of them is owned
by the Government.
PM: The airline has not done that, the airlinA pleaded with them
to be part of it and they said before the Commission If they
accept what the Commission has said, the Commission has said as I
have told you twice now on the program how the pilots can be in
it, how the Federation can be in it and that in the position of
my airline, you talk about my airline, the GovernmenL airline,
that is the position of Australian, that is the position of
Ansett. They have not sought to keep them out, they wanted them
in. SATTLERt But they are not in it at the moment
PM: But of their own decision, do you remember what happened.
They resigned, they were not sacked
SATTLER: Vividly.
PM: The Federation of Air Pilots said to their members resign.
I mean who took the pilots out of the employ of the two airlines.
SATTLER: I don't think anyone is disputing that they resigned,
but I am saying at the moment the Federation is out of it. Now
if the Pilots Federation agreed to the things you are saying
today how quickly could they be back in it again?
PM: They test it. I mean they went before the Commission the
other day and the Commission told them what I have told you.
Now they have asked to adjourn, it was supposed to come on
yesterday again and because of these other matters they were in
in the Senate they asked to wait until next Thursday. So next
Thursday has been set for them to go before the Commission and
all they have to do is tell the Commission we accept those
conditions. SATTLERt And they would be back in it
PM: As I said the first step, they have to say we will accept
those conditions. If they say yes we accept them Commission,
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by the award, the Commission makes a decision on that and if the
Commission says yes you can be bound, then they can make an
application to the Commission to vary that contract because they
are then bound by it. And that has been the position right from
way back.
SATTLER: So it could all be over next Thursday and people like
SA' 1TTLER ( cont): tho lord mayors arouid Australia who are saying
that you, Mr Hawkel you saw the ad in the this morning's
Australian PM: No, I haven't seen it.
SATTLER: Sallyanne Atkinson who we had on the program earlier
would like you and Sir Peter and Ted and the pilots to sit down
arouind A cup of toa in hcr offices lIn BSlmbane, than's all a
waste of time.
PM: Sally is a good friend of mine.
SATTLER: She said she was a good friend of yours too which I
thought was interesting for a Lib.
PM: Why not, I mean she is not bigotted, neither am 1. 1 mean I
have friends on the other side of politics of a different
persuasion, I am not bigotted in that way.
SATTLER: You don't see a role for you to intervene, that's what
I am asking.
PM: Hawke has been in this from way back urging, as I said to
you before, urging the pilots to stay in the system. If they,
you can put it as simply as this, if the pilots had not regarded
themselves as different from every other union of wage and salary
earners, I~ f they had RAitd wp are the aamo me tho * the~ g~ AA
@ III ~ a I IU ". ra 1 1 1
and millions of others have then none of this would have
transpired. It was because the pilots said no, we are going to
Jump right outside of that system expose ourselves to all the
American type common law position by jumping outside the system
and saying it's alright for all you mugs, you do it but not us,
and this has happened. I am desperately sorry that they didn't
listen to us.
SATTtLERt Now despite all of what you have said today, what are
the political implications for you with disputes like that which
I mean everybody knows about, everybody talks about it, the
pharmacists, the deficit, all those things-
PM: The deficit is not in dispute.
SATTLERt It's not a dispute alright, but it's an issue. What
are the political implications for you leading up to the next
federal election and is it likely to impact on John Bannon and
the Labor Party in South Australia tomorrow?
PM: Let me take the last part first Howard. In South Australia
the simple question that the electorate of South Australia have
to decide is who is going to govern the State of South Australia
for the next 3 years. Is it going to be John Bannon, who has one
of the greatest records of state premiership I would say around
this country for very very many years. Is it going to be John
Bannon governing South Australia for the next 3 years or is it
qoilc to be John OIRPn And the Liba antd We' my judgement JIowa. U
that the judgement of the South Australian electorate by a
majority will be that for the next 3 years they want John Bannon
governing South Australia and not John Olsen.
SATTIJERI That means, does it, that you hope that the people
vote onl that. h~ nig and not on t~ h* booales otC these federal issues
which PM4: There 18 nothing that they can do in casting their ballot
tomorrow which will'detormine federal issues. All their ballot
tomorrow will determine is who governs South Australia for the
next 3 years.
SATTLER: I wonder why both parties then have fallen in and
offered all this cash for people to help pay off their mortgages.
PM: Because they think that something, they have made the
judgemnent-
SATTLER: John Bannon has done that too.
PM: Yes, sure sure Howard the two Johns.
SATTLER: Do you think that John Bannon has made a mistake by
falling for what the Liberals offered then.
PM:-No, John Bannon will make the judgements that he thinks is
appropriate and that he is capable of carrying out. I mean I
just get back to the point, that is the decision and the only
decision that the electors of South Australia can be involved in
tomorrow, who is going to govern the State of South Australia for
the next 3 years.
SATTLER: Will the next federal election be for the house of
representatives or is there any likelihood that a half senate
election will proceed that?
PM: I answered that question many times before. There has got
to be a half senate election, there has got to be a half senate
election and I have indicated that the house of representatives
election will be held with it.
BATTLER: Despite what might happen tomorrow or in Queensland a
week later.
MH In Queensland, now you are getting on to an interesting
subject. SATTLER: Because you think you are definitely going to tin that.
PM: I think we will win both. For Wayne Goes to win in
Queensland would be an absolutely enormous achievement, you know
that gerrymandor he has goL Lu qet g masolvA vntp hitt-T thinir lam
oJiillLgmsI A. lright and that could well determine when the next
federal election is held
PM: No no it won't determine it at all. Why should it?
SATTLER: I don't know, I thought that if you thought you were on
a roll, Labor, that you might decide now is the time to go.
PM: Again Howard I repeat, you don't seem to have heard or
accepted it a moment ago, that is in South Australia Lhey will be
P14 ( cont) voting on state issues. I mean I think they have
probably got some feelings about some of our decisions or where
we are that they might not like very much, so I don't think that
you know I draw the conclusion out of a victory in South
Australia and a victory in Queensland if that's how it turns out
and I believe it will, the only thing I draw is a conclusion from
that, okay I Jump straight into an election.
SATTLER: Thanks for your time today.
PM: Thanks Howard.
SATTLER: Thanks for all the lessons on industrial relations.
PM: It's not a question of lessons, I wasn't trying to give you
a lesson but I really was trying to explain in a non partisan way
Just what the factual position has been.
SATTLER: All I know is I would like the planes to be back to
normal again.
PM: You could have had the planes back to normal several months
ago if I had said to pilots, yes, you can be different you can
have a 30% wage increase, there would have been no dispute, no
problems in the airline industry at that point. But what wouq
hAire harnnnA 4.6 Lt uUWz iLuu wouiLa nave saig
okay 30%, there would have been strikes everywhere and you would
have had a destroyed economy.
ends.