) ZWAST LI( A
PRIME MINISTER
TRANSCRIPT OF PRESS CONFERENCE, KING DAVID HOTEL, JERUSALEM
-2"--ANUAR-Y--l-93-7--
E 0 E -PROOF ONLY
JOURNALIST: Why d: you support the concept of the Palestinian
PM: I think it would repay you see exactly what I said before you frame the
question. What I said is. that Australia sipport s the rights of the
Palestinians to self-determination including should it be their choice
to a state of their own and I alm said from discussions that I ha'ie had
since I left Canberra those di Ecussions that I held in Jordan, it seemed to
me that it was the view of.. tho se involved that the mo E likely outcome
would be processes that could be put underway would be confederation with
the state of Jordan. So the important point is the right of a people
to self-determination. And I think one has got to include withini that
right the concept of that possibility that I say on the best information.
available to me that the exercie of that process, it seems to me, would be
mo st likely to be a confederation with Jordan.
JOURNALIST: What will you be taking back to Australia from this
visit to Israel?
PM: The visit to Israel of course will rmt e'something in inlation.
It will be a part of a total itinerary. And m I make the point that the
impressions I have from Israel will be part of a total mosaic of impressions,
if you like. As far as I can isolate Israel it will be this that I
am obviously impressed with the physical development that h-s
taken nlace since I was last here in 1980. Also, there is the
impression I have, hard to quantify, that there is a growing
realisation that Israel is living in an environment markedly
different than that which characterised my earlier visits
beginning in 1971. There is an important point involved here.
When I first came in 1971 and through the 1970s, Israel had
the belief and on the evidence the justified belief that its
neighbours sought its elimination. And that informed the
thinking of Israel, it informed-its attitudes to how-it-should
regard the occupied territories. It informed it attitude to what
should be the position or status with its neighbouring states.
In 1987 the situation has changed in that the world, as I said
last night, has come to understand and accept, some albeit
reluctantly, but nevertheless the world accepts now that Israel
is not going to disappear. Israel is a continuing part of the
Middle East scene. And therefore, the attitude of the 70s which
were based upon having to belligerently fight against the position
which said we are going to obliterate Israel. It is now different
There is a greater obligation to investigate the processes of
discussion with neighbouring states who do accept the right
of Israel to exist. It is obviously difficult to quantify that
sort of thing. But nevertheless that is the considerable impressi
that I have and I think the obligation upon Israel and upon
PM cont: everyone is to build upon that changed tractual situation
the acceptance of ISrael's right to exist behind secure and
recognised boundaries. It is going to be complex, difficult and
I think a prolonged process. But it must, I think, and is beginning
to inform Israel in its attitude to its neighbours and it must
also inform its attitudes towards the occupied territories.
JOURNALIST: Mr Hawke did you receive the impression in Jordan
that King Hussein was interested in meeting
PM: In the United States?
-JOURNALIST: . Or anywhere? -7
PM: No, I wasn'tgiventhe impression that King Hussein was_
wishing to meet them in the United States or anywhere at this
point in the immediate period that you referred to. But I had
the overwhelming impression that King Hussein was unqualifiedly
committed to pursuing the processes for a peaceful resolution
of the Israeli/ Arab dispute. There is simply no question about
the commitment of King Hussein to that goal, that objective, and
it is therefore important that Israel and others seek. to build
upon that fact. And if the building blocks, the initial building
blocks, are created then it is inevitable that the sort of meeting
that you refer to will take place.
JOURNALIST: Mr Hawke, when you set out on this visit did you
hope that Israel might demonstrate a more flexible attitude
PM: I haven't finished my discussions in Israel yet. I have
tDheipsu tye vePrniimneg Mtio nihsavtee r lSehnigmtohny Pdeirsecsu ssanido nsI wmieteht tahgea inF orweiitghn PMriinmies tMeirn isatnder
Shamir tomorrow morning before I leave .~ rael. So I am not forming
any final conclusions before I have completed those meetings.
JOURNALIST: What role do you see for the PLO in the negotiations
and secondly why has the Australian Government refused to
allow PM: Let's pick up the last one first and could be easily disposed of.
I had a brief discussion with the Foreign Minister about that question
before I left and his views, subsequently explained in more detail,
is that he has had very short notice from the United Nations about
this meeting and it was his view, which I accepted, " that it was not
appropriate this time that the meeting should. And he made the point
-that no question of applications in regard to any individuals had been
made in the circumstances of that brief period to which I refer. And
so that issue was simply not on the agenda, it is not significant.
PM cont: Now let me go to the first part of your question which
is very important. Your question for those who may not have heard
it was if I get it correctly was " what role do I see for the PLO
in the negotiation process". That is a very important question.
Let me first of all put to you what the position of my Government
has been. That is that we, as a Government, would not recognise
the PLO in the formal sense of recognition while it continues not
to recognise the right of Israel to exist that did not mean that
there were not contacts between representatives of the Australian
Government and PLO in various diplomatic positions and postings
and functions around the world. And we said in that same context
quiDieoVifoi isytfe -c~ apaci ty of the PLO to have a role in these
processes would be the greater should it recognise the existence
and--the right of Israel-to--exi-s-t------I-f--I may -take the---
opportunity of that question which is I think is-a fundamental*
question of developing this point which to some extent arose
romthevery--use ful-discus sion s-I-had-this--morn-ing-wi th-a -numb-er
of Palestinians. Those that I met were Mayor Freij of Bethlehem,
Dr Ghazaleh from Gaza, Mr Kuttas from Jerusalem and Mr Nuseibeh
also from Jerusalem. This question, of course, arose in those
discussions. The point I made, which I think is of critical
relevance, is this that the attitude of both sides, if you like
Israel and the PLO, to inform out of the situations of the
past by definition. But the realities in ' 87 are different but
what we cannot seem to get is a statement from both sides which
in words puts what I think they believe the facts to be. I believe
that the PLO understand, not merely that Israel exists but. that
it is going to continue to exist as an indecendent and viable
state in this region. I believe it understands that but it hasn't
in a formal sense said so. On the other side, I think that Israel
knows that whether they like it or not in a broadly representative
sense not merely of the PalestiniAns in the West Bank and the Gaza
but g -iven the Palestinians' diaspora that there-is no-organisation
more than the PLO which can speak for that. Palestinian diaspora.
So the important thing seems to me to be to get the two sides to
say what they in fact recognise. And it seems to me if that could
be done then this large primary hurdle could be overcome, that is
that there can't be discussions with the PLO, that they can't be
part of the process. If the realities in the minds could be
translated into the words then it seems to me the way is clear
for the PLO to be part of the processes of the discussions.
JOURNALIST: Mr Hawke Palestinians although Australia
might not be able to play a role in the macro sense there may
be a role for you and if so how do you feel about it?
_ PM: There was a view I think it. is.. f air to -say that-Australia--
perhaps could play some role in the broader issue and as well in
the particular issue to which you refer. And to what my response
is as it has been from the beginning, we haven't come to be a
broker, we haven't come to be a mediator and we don't put ourselves
in that position now. Simply, that I have said that if there are
things that we can do then we stand ready to do it.-Already to
this point what I have attempted to do is to convey as strongly
as I can to the Israeli leadership the firm impressions I have
about the attitude of the King-and the leadership in Jordan. I have
done that. I will, certainly in the discussions I am still to have / 4 I
PM cont: here in Israel put some of the things I have adumbrated
here to you in this conference. I will do that in more detail.
And when I come back from Switzerland to Egypt I will put the same
sorts of things there and anything that comes out of my discussions
with the Israeli leadership. I repeat I don't want to exaggerate
what may be involved in that and what may come from it but it just
seems to me that anyone who is in the position and we, for better
or worse, are in the position, but anyone who is the position to
convey information to try and clarify attitudes, tto open up
possibilities should do that. That is what I will do.
J0UhRN-A1-TST-Mr-Hawk, in--re-lation-to--the-prart~ icular-subtect
Jordanians on exactly this matter that the Israelis will
have to change some of their views have to change?__
PM: I have already canvassed basically in the answer I gave before.
Nery. y-briefly let me-emphasise the-points--The attitudeof-the
Israelis as of today has necessarily been informed by the historical
past. That historical past was to a large extent characterised by
a non-acceptance of Israel's right to exist by the Arab states and
by the PLO. As I have tried to say, I think the realities now are
different. But whether it is reluctantly or not, nevertheless, there
is an acceptance of Israel's right to exist. Israel needs, if you
like, to be reassured but to accept that fact and from that new fact
itself be prepared to accelerate the processes of discussion.
JOURNALIST: any kind of expressed message from King Hussein
to Mr Shamir confederation rather than federation.
PM: In answer to the first question. I didn't bring a specific
message in terms of the proposal. But what I was asked to bring and
did bring was a clear enunciation of the Jordanian attitude and
commitment. And that I have done; And secondly, no the concept
of confederation in the sense that-you imention was not mentioned.
It was not put. It was in terms of a federation of West Bank/ East
Bank. JOURNALIST: PLO Israel has a right to exist
( inaudible)
PM: I can combine those two questions into one. They are really
two parts of the one question. I don't say this with any intention
of being rude. If you had the opportunity of listening to all I have
said and read what I have said what I have put is that there can't
be a legitimate expectation of Israel to proceed to any commitment
of the sort that I have talked about with the PLO unless there is
a clear recognition by the PLO of Israel's right to exist. That
is the formulation that I have put. So your hypothetical quesdtionis
not relevant to me because the position I have put is based upon
the need for the PLO to recognise Israel's right to exist. And it
is importantto understand the reciprocal of that. The reciprocal
of that is that the PLO reoognises Israel's right to exist then it
seems to me there is a corresponding obligation on Israel to treat
with the PLO as part of the negotiating process.
I' 4
JOURNALIST: Mr Hawke, what approaches has the Israel Government
made to you Soviet Jewry
PM: Mr Shamir asked me to continue the efforts that I and my
Government and Bill Hayden, my Foreign Minister, have made
on behalf both on the requests of the Refusniks and also of the
conditons for Soviet Jewry within the Soviet Union. And I, of
course, said to him that I would do that. And I have just
recently before coming to this conference had the very moving
experience of meeting with representatives of the group who call
themselves the Mothers of the Refuseniks who have given me the most
_ moving,. and indee-d-tr-aqgi-cs. t. orie s-conc-erningthei irnext-o fkin-,
their children, who want to leave the Soviet Union and come to
join them here. And if one had needed, which in a sense I didn't,
any added incentive then meet-ing these-women--would h-ave -provided-it--
And I have also indicated to them that I would continue to press the
case in general and in this case that I refer to their particular
case.
JOURNALIST: How do you see a situation where a representative
of the Australian Government might meet with PLO officers to
convey the views that you have in this news conference.
PM: The position of the Government as publicly expressed and put
by me and which I repeat is that we wouldn't be engaging in a process
which involved formal recognition of the PLO unless and until there
was that recognition by the PLO of Israel's right to exist. obviously,
this is a matter that have talked about with the people I met this
morning. It was the sort of thing that informed part of my discussions
before I leave Israel, that is trying to get this reciprocal
recognition, that is recognition by the PLO of Israel and its
right to exist. And in a sense contemporaneously to that, an
acceptance of the obligation on the part of Israel to deal with
the PLO in the circumstances that-the PLO-recognise Israel. And of
course, in that context it could be a si~ dation if the people wanted
it could be appropriate in those circumstances for represenhiatives of
the Australian Government to meet with the PLO.
JOURNALIST: Did you read the recommendations of the Menzies
Report and what is your attitude to its implementation.
PM: I have had that question put to me before but I am quite happy
to answer it again. Yes, I have-seen the recommendations-of the
Menzies Report. But I make these points. I don't run a dictatorship
in Australia. What the processes are there is that the Government,
the Cabinet, will consider the Menzies Report and the light of
consideration of the Cabinet the decision will be made as to how
we will give effect to those recommendations. And that -process--wil-l--
be undertaken quite quickly.
JOURNALIST: Mr Hawke, how will you go about pressing the particular
cases that were raised with you by the Mothers of the Refuseniks.
PM: There will be two categories of approach. There was at least
one of the circumstances that was raised which had a sense of absolute
immediacy in that one of the women there has a mother who is dying of
*-cancer in the Soviet Union and is seeking an entry visa -it-. is the
/ 6
PM cont: other way round to the Soviet Union to be able to see and
be with her mother before she dies. Now obviously in that case I
will try and accelerate an immediate representation of that case.
In regard to the others, it will probably take a little bit more
time as to how it is best to make that representation within the
broader framework of our contacts with the Soviet Union.
JOURNALIST: economic relations direct air links..
PM: On the air links, the position is very simply this that this
matter has been raised more recently in Australia. It was raised
~ dii-ring the iEif6f lid Pi,& Yd MH~ ifzog, and -pulEIff6Thim
and I have said this again to Mr Shamiir and his Ministers yesterday
-that in Australia we-have-an--arms-length -elIat ionsh ipbetween. Qan tas,
our national airline,' and the Government. And I have indicated to
Qantas that if the proposal was put to them that they should consider
in the-normal terms--that the-question of--air -links -with--any--coun-t-ry--
was considered. And that is what can happen. We have put no bar
upon Qantas considering it in commercial terms. On the second questio
of a free trade area. This was not raised in the discussions yesterda
I see that it has received some currency in the press. But we were
more practical in an immediate sense in our discussions yesterday
what we agreed was that there could be to the mutual benefit of
Israel and Australia greater cooperation in economic areas, and
technology. And so we have set up a working party. We have agreed
to the establishment of a working party between our two countries to
examine the possibilities of further cooperation in the economic
and the trading areas. As well, of course, you will recall that
yesterday our Ambassador and the Minister here signed, in the
presence of Mr Shamir and myself, a memorandum of understanding
which provides for greater cooperation in the civil technological
and science area, particularly for economic and social purposes.
JOURNALIST:, Prime Minister, in your distussions this morning with
the Palestinians oppressed what steps are there that your
Government can take to address any human rights violations
PM: On the first point, yes there were propositions put to me about
oppression. Secondly, I said to them alright you give us the details
of these things and we will be prepared to put those details to the
Israeli authorities and we will be pleased to hear what they have
to say about them.
JOURNALIST: Do you plan to fund any development projects in the
West Bank and Gaza and secondly what is your view. on the
PM: On the firstpoint... What. I said to the King-and the Prime_
Minister of Jordan was thaat firstly I responded positively to their
request that we should give moral and political support to the West
Bank economic development. I gave that immediately because it is
within my capacity as Prime Minister to make the decision on that
in principle and to convey that to them. I did. They said that they
would appreciate material support. on that point-I said to them that
I would convey that request back to my Ministers and we will give
consideration as to how we may be able to give some assistance to thai
West Bank economic development plan. I think it would be appropriate / 7
PM cont: to give some assistance. It will be a matter for discus
with my Ministers. On the second.-question about the settlements,
we have made our position clear on that and it follows that we
wou~ d be opposed to new settlements.
JOURNALIST: Lebanon ( inaudible question)-
PM: Not only for that reason but it certainly gives added weight
to our thinking.
JOURNALIST: have you spoken to any of the Lebanon..
I -haven--t--been-to South etalibon. If-f -eries one thing that
is a totally open book here is my itinerary and I haven't been
to south. Lebanon..__
JOURNALIST: inaudible question
PM: I don't. with respect, need any instruction on my moral
or political obligations in regard to Lebanon. I have from before
I was in government and certainly since I have been in government
made the position of my Government crystal clear in regard to
Lebanon. Let me repeat that position so there can be no doubt
about it. Before putting the position it is based upon our oercepl
that the position in Lebanon is one of total tragedy. It is argual
the most tragic situation in the Middle East. And it is a tragedy
beuazi. Se it is compounded by two features. First we have the
interconfessional rivalries and bitterness and fighting and killint
within Lebanon. You have that interconfessional tragedy. And
superimposed, secondly, upon that interconfessional tragedy you
have the intrusion of international forces and international rivali
and that is truly gruesome mixture. And those who suffer and
suffer in horrendous dimensions the casualties are enormousare
the civilian population. So it is on that analysis-the
position of the Australian Government-has been this that the,
authority of the government ofl. Lebanon should be allowed to
extend throughout its territory and that all foreign forces not
in Lebanon at the express request of the government of Lebanon sho,
be withdrawn. That is the objective and that is the policy of
my Government.
JOURNALIST: WThat sort of broad time frame you might have in mind
proposal PLO and Israel do you think from the attitude
or do you think it is the start of a very long process that
you are talking about?
PM: Mike, obviously what one would hope for and desire is that
this sort of process could be very quick. I guess,-realistical. ly-,
given the history of this matter that you can't put a short timetal
on it. All I can say is that I think the facts are clear. There.
many complexities about the Middle East situation. And I have beei
associated with it, I have studied it closely now for getting on
for 20 years, and there are many things that are complex. But the
facts on this particular aspect are clear. And I repeat that I th
that in fact the PLO recognise the state of Israel is here and is
going to continue to be here. On the other hand, I think it is clthat
the Israeli Government understands the fact that the-PLO is t.
only broad organisation that can speak with some authority.
h.
PM cont: Now the question is of trying, as I said, I don't want
to go on again in detail, but the question is translating what
I think are the facts into an expression of public acknowledgement
of those facts. It shouldn't, one would believe, take long for that
to be done. But I can't say whether it will.
JOURNALIST: Do you have any idea on how it might be done?
PM: In this sort of area those sort of things can only emerge
through discussions, negotiations, with people of good will and
integrity trying to persuade people to that sort of position. And
say. withiout overstating my role and Australia's role we would
be trying to convey to those concerned that that is a sensible outcome.
JOURNALIST: nadbequestion-
PM: You don't need to wave your pen at me. I am quite capable of
iinderstanding -any-point--th-at-you--are-try ing-ta -make -without
I do happen to know a fair bit about the facts. I do happen to
know about the provision in the covenant and I think it is a
repulsive provision. And I am on record for some 16 years of
saying that so I don't need to establish my credentials to you with
or without pen waving here. I know it and I have said it publicly.
What I am trying to say is that I believe the fact may be reluctantly
arrived at but I believe the fact is that the PLO knows now, in 1987,
that Israel is here, it is going to continue to exist. It is not
going to disappear. And it has to conduct itself on the basis of
that fact. What needs to be-done in the interests both of Israel
and of the Palestinians is that-that understanding, however
reluctantly arrived at, needs to be put publicly so that there
is a clear statement from the PLO that that now in 1987 is their
position.
JOURNALIST: inaudible question
PM: All I am saying is that I will try and convey that poositio-n,
that understanding on my part of what seems to me to be a necessary
and eminently sensible first step. There is the difference betzween
being prepared to convey that and say it both publicly and privately
and annointing oneself as a mediator. And I refuse to do the latter.
I repeat that if, as a result in any way of the involvement that
I have to this point, that those concerned would see that there
is some further role then we would accept that responsibility.
JOURNALIST: former Nazi war criminals..
PM: I have already answered that question. It is a question of
judgment as to whether-1 really answered itor not. . I__. willsim~ ly_
say that the question I was asked before was-about the Menaies
Report. So in case you don't understand that I have answered the
question let me put to you again the facts so that you appreciate
that I have answered. My Foreign Minister, Bill Hayden, was-given
the list in the United States. He brought that back. We then
immediately took action to appoint an investigator, Mr Andrew
Menzies, as to the recommendations to the Government as to what
we should do. We have received the report of Mr Menzies. I have
said in answer to the-previous question that we-will as--a Government
consider that report and make the decisions in the light of that
9.
PM cont: report. I repeat I have answered the question.
JOURNALIST: that Mr Sharpir is a flexible enough leader
could talk to the PLO in the terms taht you are discussing
today? PM: Good try, Greg, but you know that since I have been Prime
Minister I have not in my own country and certainly not when
I am a visitor to another country made observations about the
leadership of that country. And I don't intend to depart from
that practice. I am going to be having further discussions with
~~~ Mtr~ o~ o~ rhaomwia vin Au wil e sa, wih
Mr Peres today. And it is my hope that out of the discussions that
-I have there wil be-the -i nd icat ions of_ t the-sor tpreparedness_
proceed down the sorts of paths that I think are appropriate.
and I will be putting that position both to Mr Peres and Mr Shamir.
JOURNALIST: United States, West Germany and France, all of
which have
PM: Let me make these points. You put the United States and West
Germany and France in the same category of relationship with
Australia. I would like to think it was true. But on the part
of France, at least, there doesn't seem to be the same warmth
towards Australia as there is certainly form the United States.
That may diminish in a week or so's time when we beat them in
the yacht race or on the part of West Germany. It is a rather
peripheral introduction to a reply.-Firstly, let me make-this
point. The Government of Australia is totally opposed to the
tactic and practice of terrorism. It cannot under any circumstances
be a legitimate use of the pursuit of policy by any nation or any
group, it must always be counterpr~ oductive. Now that should make
it clear what I think about what happened. And I repeat, I -take
this opportunity of repeating, our abhorrence at the tactics. Wle
will continue, as a Government, to say that. I believe that
clearly in this region the tactic of terror is a by-product of
this overall dispute here and the Iran/ Iraq dispute. And so if
in this region you are going to create the conditions for the
removal of this tactic and practice of terror you have to attempt
to solve the basic problem. And what I have been concerned about
in my discussions in Jordan and here in Israel and I will be in
Egypt is to try and talk about that basic Israeli/ Arab dispute.
To try in whatever small way we may be able to to help the processes
of resolving that dispute. If you can resolve that dispute you
will have done the most effective and when I say. if you I am not
saying me, I mean if you and everyone involved if that dispute
can be resolved then you will have done-t-he best-thing you -canto
remove the circumstances within $ zhich these things mill be
done. And of course in all our discussions . about the Israeli/ Arab
dispute we should not forget the great tragedy of the conflict
between Iran and Iraq. It has been going for seven years a million
dead, young children for what purpose, nothing. And again, there
is an obligation upon all nations and people of good will to try and
help those who are about trying to end that dispute. It is only when
you remove the fundamental disputes as far as you can that you are
going to have the best of bases for optimism about the end of
terrorism.
JOURNALIST: inaudible question on Lebanon
PM: Just before you proceed I hope you will recall that that
was not all I said. I said there were two factors involved. I
said there was the interconfessional conflict. And I said there
was the intrustion into the Lebanon of the international conflict.
JOURNALIST: inaudible continuation of same question on Lebanon
PM: I have heard you statement come question and I simply say this.
If you are looking at the question of the interests of Israel you have
g-t-f-t6I -th-ikEsiib ly--a-sk-yourseTf-the-question-are-the--interests
of Israel going to be served indefinitely into the future by a situatiol
which they are going to-have within their borders a population which
if they continue to have it within their borders in its entirety
is likely by the turn of the century or into the next century to
have-the Jes----as minority-in--their-country,-Iwonder-and I_. say. -Idon't
have to to you to establish my credentials as a friend of
Israel. I think it is a legitimate question to ask and I know that
very many of my Israeli friends are asking the question is it
going to be in the interests of Israel to have a situation by the
end of the century or into the beginning of the next to be a
minority in their own land.
ENDS W
o
A r