Prime Minister
JOHN LAWS: And to tell us more about the situation, generally, we've got the Prime Minister himself on the line. Prime Minister, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER: G'day John, how are you?
LAWS: Top of the world. What a lovely wife you've got.
PRIME MINISTER: Mate, I've been punching about my weight for a very long time. There's no doubt about that. I'm, I am blessed.
LAWS: Yes, you really. I just think she's an absolute delight.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah. Well, you know, she, she tells it pretty straight. She's always done that with me. She's strong and she's determined, but she's loving, caring and kind as well.
LAWS: And lovely and lovely. Anyway, on to more boring things than your beautiful wife. What about, she's received a bit of a bullying since Sunday night's 60 Minute interview. How is she accepting that? I suppose she just accepts it?
PRIME MINISTER: Taylor Swift, the haters are gonna hate, shake it off. That's Jenny's approach, and Jenny is very grateful, I was speaking to her earlier today, and you know, we speak all the time. She's so grateful for the the overwhelming messages of support that she's received, from people right across the country, the very people she was talking about, John, and I know who listen to your program, those who just quietly get on about having, trying to have the best possible life. And that's what Jenny was talking about, and that's that's where her focus has always been, and mine. So she's just incredibly grateful for that. For the strong and overwhelming encouragement and kind messages that she received, there's always going to be those John who have a crack at you.
LAWS: Oh yeah, tell me about it.
PRIME MINISTER: I do. And you just you just park that over there in the bin and you get on with the job that you have and do the best you possibly can for the people who elected you to do it.
LAWS: You're onto a good thing here when you say that you want to make it easier to deport foreign nationals who have committed serious criminal offences. I think that is a fantastic idea.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we've been doing it. We need to go further. I mean, I started this when I was the Immigration Minister. I wasn't just stopping the boats back then, I was throwing out visa holders have committed terrible crimes, and one of the first things I did actually was there was a bloke called Alex Vella, who was the head of the Rebel motorcycle gang.
LAWS: Oh yes, I remember him.
PRIME MINISTER: And he went overseas and I cancelled his visa and he's still over there and they tried to challenge in the courts. You know, the previous government had let him stay and actually renewed his visa, but they've never been serious about this. We've cancelled 10,000 visas since we first came to government, 4,000 just since the last election. But there is a loophole that they are using, these criminals are using, to help them stay in the country when we try to cancel their visa. And that loophole is, is that if a judge gives them a sentence of less than two years for stalking, domestic violence, assaulting police officers, breaching AVOs, possessing weapons, concealing child abuse offences, date rape offences, all of this. If a judge goes and gives them a sentence of less than two years, even though that crime carries a sentence of two years, then they can appeal against the decision to toss them out. And all they have to get is is a judge who is prepared to do that and they and they get to stay. Now we want to change that. And the Labor Party are opposing this. They've opposed us for 1,200 days on trying to do this, 1,200. I mean, Anthony Albanese likes to talk about, well, whose side is he on, well he is clearly on the side of criminals. And if that's what side he wants to choose, well, he can explain that to the Australian people, but what it says to me is, you know, he just doesn't have the strength to do this stuff. He said he couldn't bring himself to turn boats back. I know how hard that is. I had to do it.
LAWS: Yeah.
PRIME MINISTER: And now we don't have people coming on boats and we stop that through strength. And you cannot be Prime Minister, if you do not have that strength.
LAWS: You want to make it easier to get rid of these people who have committed serious offences. And it's going to be called the Migration Amendment Character Test Bill. Kristina Keneally says the new laws will make it easier to deport people who commit trivial offences. But why would you want to do that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, she's wrong, and it's just another Labor excuse to try and hide the fact that they want to protect people who have committed acts of domestic violence. What this does is, is we're talking about serious offences and a serious offence that carries a potential penalty of two years or more. And what we're doing here is if the judge doesn't give that penalty, we're not letting that be there out. And that's why the law has to change and we want to change it. We've been improving this law for many years, and every time we improve it, the criminals find, try and find a loophole, which is what they've done, and we want to shut this down now, too. So Kristina Keneally wants people who have been convicted of domestic violence to stay in the country because the judge gave them a soft sentence. Well she has to explain that. We don't want that to happen.
LAWS: We don't want it to happen either. We being the people. I can't you, I can't imagine anybody wanting that to happen. What's the matter with Kristina Keneally?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's both. It's the entire Labor Party when it comes to these issues, John, they just, they just don't have the strength and it's not easy, but you have to do it. That's what keeping Australians safe means. And I've been doing that all throughout, from when I was an Immigration Minister through to a Prime Minister. You know, I don't flinch on these things. But Labor, they balk. They balked on turning boats back. They balked on the Pacific Solution. They balked on all of these things. They balked on defence spending. They balk on all of these issues. They, they want to appease when it comes to China, the Chinese Government, I should say, not the, we love the Chinese people and particularly Chinese Australians, are the most patriotic.
LAWS: They are fantastic. That's right.
PRIME MINISTER: … awesome, and, and we celebrate them. But we're not going to be coerced by the Chinese Government. We stood up to them, too. But, you know, Labor, when it just comes to these issues and keeping Australians safe, they're just soft.
LAWS: How do you get on with your opposition leader?
PRIME MINISTER: Professionally, but I couldn't say we have a close relationship. I don't think that's any surprise that we seek to work professionally as, as requires us both of our roles.
LAWS: I found him to be a very nice bloke, very interesting fellow to talk to. You wouldn't agree with that, I suppose?
PRIME MINISTER: I've been really not offering a comment. I'll let people work, work it out for themselves. But but when it comes to things that really matter, John, this is the stuff we're talking about. I mean, John, we're in a situation, as I have no doubt you appreciate, I mean, look at what's happening over in Europe at the moment. We've got Russian troops amassed on on the Ukraine border.
LAWS: I know, that's frightening.
PRIME MINISTER: And we have, you know, tensions in our own region. We have, you know, global economic challenges that are ahead of us. These are very uncertain times and it's not a time for weakness. It's not a time for double mindedness and having an each way bet on these things. People, I have my critics, John. I don't doubt that. As a Prime Minister, you always do. You've spoken to all the Prime Ministers over the years and you know, we've all got our, we've all got our weaknesses. But I tell you one thing I don't have, and I suspect your listeners would agree, when it comes to national security, there's no weakness there.
LAWS: No, nor should there be, not a not in this time, there shouldn't be. It's been a couple of weeks since you were ambushed at the National Press Club by Peter van Onselen. What do you make of the timing considering the messages are two years old?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't make anything of it at all, John. I mean, the thing about the Canberra bubble is there's always people looking to make a headline for themselves, and there's always people looking to create controversy and throw mud around and get into all that sort of nonsense. And, you know, in a context, as a Prime Minister, when each day I'm dealing with national security, our economy, the challenges of COVID and getting our live, normal lives back. And you know, that sort of, sort of rubbish, I just put it in the bin. I don't think I'm, one of the things Jenny was saying about me the other night. I mean, it was I did an hour long interview with Karl and the one Jenny and I did together with Karl was about 45 minutes. So, you know, how those work, they’ll clip it up. I'm not criticising that, I'm just saying that's what they do. But, you know, I was asked about these same things. And what Jenny says about me is that I'm very focused and that I go immediately in the problem-solving mode when there are problems. And and so that's just what I get on and do. And so I I can block out all that white noise of of the of the harassment and the, you know, the character sledges and and all these others in the bubble trying to make a name for themselves to boost their own ratings and their own Twitter following. That's their business. I've got a serious job to do, and that's what I keep on doing.
LAWS: Ok, those text messages were pretty harsh though. I mean, you've got to admit that, they were harsh.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, look, John, you've been around politics a long time. I mean, if if, could you imagine what the text messages would have said back in the Hawke-Keating years or or in other times, could you imagine what those text messages would have said. Politicians, you know, they get passionate, they get, they get angry from time to time, they say all sorts of things and that still happens, whether they put it in a text message or not. But the point is, you know, what do you do about it? And you know, the Deputy Prime Minister and I are working very closely together on really serious things. And you know, I got I got some advice not long after I came into parliament from someone I respected a great deal, who’d been around the place a long time and they said never get bitter. If you get bitter in this job, you can't do your job.
LAWS: Well, that's pretty right. If you get bitter in any job, you're in trouble.
PRIME MINISTER: It's true. So, John, you know, it's you got to have a thick skin to be in politics, and I do and I can weather all that. And if you want to be the Prime Minister, you can't have a glass jaw. You can't sort of get all sooky about it. You've got to, you got to harden up if you're Prime Minister. And and and that's that's the tough nature of politics. And I know, I know many Australians feel, gee, I wish it wasn't like that.
LAWS: Well, it is.
PRIME MINISTER: It is what it's like. And to be able to stand up for Australia, as I have been doing, whether it's calling out where the virus came from or or standing up to coercion or, you know, throwing out Alex Vella all those years ago, that takes some mettle. And while people might have their criticisms of me, you know, in the mettle department, you know, there's there's there's plenty there.
LAWS: You need it. More than 30,000 aged care residents and staff were infected with COVID in January, and more than half of the facilities have been locked down. Yet the Aged Care Minister decided to go to the Ashes in January instead of a Senate select committee of COVID. Do you really think it's appropriate for him to hold the portfolio? Because I don't.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, John, I hear that and I can understand why people were really disappointed about that. I mean, remember, this is an enquiry that we set up as a Government. We supported that because we thought it was important that there be accountability and scrutiny throughout COVID. There aren't too many countries in the world that have done that. So we've made ourselves available. Our officials have. And, indeed, Richard had on other occasions to make ourselves available for that. What's happening in aged care is very, very difficult, John. There's no doubt about that. A pandemic does have an impact. But the Chief Medical Officer and the former Chief Medical Officer Professor Murphy, which many of your listeners, you know, they will know Brendan and Paul, in aged care, let me, can I just give you a few stats, because this is important. Australia has done by comparison to the rest of the world, I think, incredibly well. That doesn't mean every life lost is not a tragedy. Of course it is. We feel every single one. At the rate of of of those who have passed away in in Australia in aged care is about 398 to one million people of the population over 65. Now, that's a lot. I agree. But listen to what it is in Canada - it's 2,649. In the UK, it's 3,651. In the United States, it's 2,767. In Ireland, it's 1,385. In in France, it's 2,272, and in Spain, it's 2,919. My point about that, John, is it's like when we were dealing with the earlier waves in the pandemic. I mean, the rate of infections in UK aged care facilities was eight times what it was in Australia. A virus like this, when it's out in the community, is going to have an impact. And while all of those lives lost I I grieve for, I’m also thankful for the thousands of lives that we've actually saved through the tremendous work of our aged care workers and all those who have been involved, working with the industry to get those outcomes.
The other point I'd make is this, John. In aged care, as we all know, there are people who pass away every week. And, in fact, outside of COVID, normally about a thousand people pass away in aged care every week. That's what happens normally. And they have many, many different ailments and conditions and things. And, you know, my own father, that's what happened two years ago, and we all understand that. And with COVID, while there are people who are passing away with COVID, and this is what the Chief Medical Officer has said, that doesn't mean they've passed away because of COVID. They have many other other what is called co-morbidities and and many other conditions. And so, you know, we're at pains to stress this. The life lost is terrible and tragic. About half of those who have been affected have, were already in end of life care. And we all understand that, as well.
So we are going to keep doing everything we possibly can to ensure we minimise the impact, and compared to other countries around the world, we have been doing that and I think that's a credit to the great care and work that's been done in the sector. And we've got to keep applying ourselves as best as we possibly can.
LAWS: Prime Minister, way, way back there somewhere, I asked you about a fellow called Richard Colbeck. You, you’ve cleverly skipped around, and you're very good at that, skipped around and didn't give me an answer. Is it still appropriate for Richard Colbeck to hold the portfolio that he does?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes. And I'll tell you why. Because in the middle of this pandemic, John, we have to keep our focus on what we need to do ahead. And Richard has been working closely with the aged care sector constantly. And yep, you know, my preference is that he would have been at that hearing, and he understands that. But, that said, I need people who have got the corporate history and memory of everything we've been working through in this pandemic. And he has that, and he works closely with the aged care sector and that helps me minimise the impact of this pandemic in aged care facilities, which is what it's all about. It’s not about politics, it’s not about personalities. I have to make decisions about what I think is best to keep people alive and to have the best possible management of the pandemic.
LAWS: Did you, did you reprimand him?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, we've spoken about it. We've spoken about it.
LAWS: That's a very political answer. “We've spoken about it.” You speak about a lot of things. Did you reprimand him, though?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, look, John, these are conversations I have with my Ministers. I can assure you he's in no doubt about the fact that, where I would have preferred him to have been. You know, the politics of personalities and the gotcha and the scalps and all this sort of stuff, John, this place is obsessed with that. They're obsessed with the politics of this issue. I'm interested in the reality of this issue, which is caring for people in aged care. So I'm not going to get distracted about the politics and and those who are seeking - I'm not suggesting you're doing that John, at all - what I'm saying is this place in Canberra, you know what it's like, people focus on on those issues. I've got to stay focused on what's best for aged care.
LAWS: The aged care sector, speaking of, is facing a staffing crisis with thousands of workers in isolation or just giving up, quitting. You promised workers an $800 cash to staff, but what’s your, that's lovely. But what’s your long-term plan and what guarantees that that's going to be enough for the workers at these facilities, and that there will be enough workers anyway?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there are two issues there. The first one is is ensuring that we can get as many of them back to work as quickly as we can. And that's why we changed the rules, and I convinced states to change the rules, which enabled them not to be taken out of the workforce because of being a close contact. So we did that, and we put the personal protective equipment and the, and the rapid antigen tests in place, which we're doing from last August, into aged care facilities, to do all that which can keep those those staff at work. But now the ones who can't turn up have COVID. So that's, you know, something you can't avoid.
And we've, as you said, we put the additional booster payments in there for aged care workers, which is the second time we’ve done that, not the first time, the second time we've done that. And that has been well-received by by the aged care sector. But we've changed the rules around student nurses, for example, increasing the number of hours they could work so they can supplement that workforce. And in the most acute situations, we are using the limited resources of the Defence Forces in this area to send in tactical teams to support in the most dire of situations, and that's proving to be very effective as well.
The longer term approach to the aged care workforce actually also goes to training people to go into that workforce, making sure that our accreditation and qualification systems means that we can make better use of the people who want to go and work in this area. And that's an important part of it. There's a, there's a case before the Fair Work Commission, which they will determine. That's not determined by the Government. And and we will have to work with the outcome of that, of that hearing.
But aged care, but it’s the same in disability care, it's the same in many areas. We need more people in the workforce and we have, we're at record levels, pretty much, of workforce participation in this country. Unemployment is going below four per cent - haven't seen that in 50 years. We've got more trade apprentices in trade training today than we've ever had in this country since 1963. And we've got, you know, 1.1 million people we've been able to get back into jobs, as we've come through this pandemic. There’s about 250,000 more people in jobs today than there were before the pandemic. We've got a million extra women into work as well. So we've got some big workforce challenges in this country, and it's not restricted to aged care.
LAWS: No, it's not. You've ordered Australian embassy staff to evacuate Ukraine. I know we're going to run out of time in a minute. Reports that there could be a Russian attack within 72 hours, that's being talked about. Are they accurate reports?
PRIME MINISTER: We hope that doesn't happen, John. But that is, that is the very real risk at this time. You know, the potential risk, those troops are amassed on that border and it is, it is potentially imminent. But I wouldn't want to be saying anything that would suggest that this is, you know, a known, a known entity, a known fact. But we're very well aware of the assessments and that risk of that occurring at any moment is is there and it's real.
We've been, I mean, last night I convened a meeting of the National Security Committee of Cabinet. It was quite a lengthy meeting and we were into this issue in significant detail and looking at the and the responses and the the coordination we've had with our other partners and like-mindeds - United States, United Kingdom, Canada and so on - and working together with how we can act together. I've got to say one thing that does disappoint me, though, John, is that like-minded countries, - Australia, you know, France, everyone - have been very clear in their denunciation of what is, what Russia is doing.
LAWS: Yes, which is great.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, which is great. But there's one country that's not doing it, John, and actually work with Russia in the National Security Council of the United Nations. And that was the Chinese Government. So this is, this is what makes this all very real. What's happening over in Ukraine is happening there, I understand that. But in our own region, we have a very large country and a Government that is not denouncing what Russia is threatening. And, John, they're threatening terrible violence on on Ukraine.
LAWS: Oh, I know it's dreadful. It's frightening.
PRIME MINISTER: It, they are threatening terrible violence, and that will also have a real impact on the global economy. We anticipate that it will have impact on oil prices and, you know, we’ll all feel that. And that will be, that will be the result of what's occurring over there. And when you have, you know, a large country in our own region that suggests that they want, you know, peace and harmony, but yet are not prepared to call out the actions of an autocratic state that wants to violate the territorial sovereignty of their neighbour, then that is very concerning.
LAWS: Very concerning.
PRIME MINISTER: Chilling. I’m calling that out and I'm prepared to always call that out, John. And I know that there'll be blowback against me for saying that internationally. Of course they will. There was blowback against me when I shut the border to China. There was blowback against me when I called out where the virus came from in China. There's always blowback against me when I stand up for Australia's interests, and I tell you, John, you you’ve got to be prepared to do it. And whether it's, whether it's throwing out people from Australia who have committed terrible crimes or standing up to those who want to coerce us, I mean, I don't agree with Anthony Albanese when he said, Oh, we've got to, you know, get things right with China. So there's some things that we can, you know, there's some things of these, of these trade sanctions they've put on us that they can, they can do, well that's good. Well, which ones does he want to keep?
LAWS: Well, that's the good question. Prime Prime Minister, I've got to go, and I know you've got to.
PRIME MINISTER: My bells are ringing too here John, so.
LAWS: Yeah, ok, it’s good to talk to you, as usual, and I hope we get to talk to each other again soon.
PRIME MINISTER: I look forward to it, John, and thank you all so kindly for for what you had to say about Jenny. I really appreciate that, both of us. You’re very blessed in your life to have a wonderful woman. And so, so have I been. So thank you very much.
LAWS: Ok, that's a pleasure. Thank you very much for your time, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: Thank you.