Prime Minister
KARL STEFANOVIC: PM, good morning to you.
PRIME MINISTER: G’day, Karl.
STEFANOVIC: So, you’ve, you've locked and loaded on the states. Went down like a lead balloon in Queensland and WA.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the National Cabinet agreed the plan, and it's not a deal with me, it's a deal with the Australian people, and it's based on the best medical, science and economic research in the world. And, it says that you can safely open at 70 and 80 per cent when when your, the population is vaccinated to that level. And, that means we can go into a new COVID normal, we can get out of the cave and, importantly, we can do it safely. And, that's a deal we’ve made with Australians - not with me - that people going and doing the right thing every week and getting vaccinated, 1.8 million last week, more than 300,000 people each day, going and saying, ‘we want to get out of this’.
STEFANOVIC: Yeah.
PRIME MINISTER: And, so, that's the deal. Now, I understand there can be some concerns about cases rising, and I get that. But, that means you just prepare for it, you make sure your public health systems are ready, you get it done, but you can't stay here forever. And, if not at 70 and 80 per cent, then when?
STEFANOVIC: Ok. You put, didn't you put the deal together, though?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course I did. That's my job ...
STEFANOVIC: Isn’t it your deal?
PRIME MINISTER: … And we did, and we all agreed it. We did it over many, many months, and it went through many iterations. We agreed at first about what the four steps were.
STEFANOVIC: Yeah.
PRIME MINISTER: Then we agreed that we'd use the scientific evidence to guide what those rates would be, because we had to do it safely. We agreed that, and then we confirmed it again. And, yes, I know there's been more cases in New South Wales since then, but as the Doherty Institute, which is the group that has advised us this - this is the group it was the first ever to reproduce the virus in a lab anywhere in the world - said again last night, it doesn't matter whether it's 30 cases or 800 cases, the conclusions are the same. And, that's what the Doherty Institute said last night. And, so, we can do this safely and we do need to do it.
STEFANOVIC: Ok. If it's 800 cases, Queensland and WA will not open their borders, even if the numbers in New South Wales stabilise - they look like getting worse.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we’ll see, we’ll see.
STEFANOVIC: So, there's no chance that they will open their borders. This is not my argument, it’s their argument.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I heard those comments, but it's still several months until we get to those marks, and I think every single day, seven and eight out of 10 Australians will make that very clear. And, there's a lot to work through. We've got to address any concerns that they might have about the issues of rising cases, which will happen, because we'll go from, I mean, cases will not be the story once we hit 70 and 80 per cent. The idea of COVID zero, that's not the issue once you get to 70 and 80 per cent. Any state and territory that thinks that somehow they can protect themselves from COVID with the Delta strain forever, that's just absurd. I mean, New Zealand can't do that. They were following an elimination strategy. They're in lockdown. The way through is to get to those 70 and 80 per cent marks, open safely. Of course, there are baseline things you still have to do, and when you hit 70 and 80 per cent, you'll have an even higher rate of first dose vaccinations and an even higher rate of double dose vaccinations for the most elderly in our community. And, the proof of this plan is what we've already seen. In Sydney, right now, we are not experiencing the same level of fatalities as we did in Melbourne last year. The reason: we got our older population vaccinated. And, as a result, that is protecting people.
STEFANOVIC: So, the Doherty Institute has updated its outlook, which were based on low case numbers, as you mentioned, in the community. And, now it says it doesn't matter how many cases there are. You've seen the modelling. I mean, how many COVID cases will we have every day, and how many deaths are they predicting? How many cases and deaths are you comfortable living with?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we, what the plan does is when you get to 80 per cent, you manage it like any other infectious disease. Now, we don't shut the country down because of the flu. We don't do that. We don't do it for other infectious diseases. And, so, what's really important is that that's what this, that's what this modelling shows us, that you can manage this with some baseline elements as well, common sense measures, to ensure that you can treat it like the flu. And, that’s where we want to get. That's what living with COVID looks like. And ...
STEFANOVIC: Ok. Epidemiologists say you can’t open up with hundreds of cases, contact tracers, they can't keep up. Hospitals can't care for the numbers of sick. Do you think differently?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the Doherty Institute thinks differently. I mean, I'm not the epidemiologist here, the Doherty Institute is, and they're the well-respected science organisation that have informed our our decisions on this. And, I stand by their their work every single day of the week. And, what it's been backed up by is a vaccination program which is vaccinating at record rates. I mean, there are more places you can get a vaccination jab now than you can get a Big Mac in this country. And, so, that rollout is really hitting its marks. It’s, we've had the best week ever, and per capita it's better than the best week ever in the UK, and it's on par with the best week ever in the United States. So, we're getting it done. Australians are getting it done. They're doing it because they want their lives back. And, my plan ensures, I should say, our plan, because it's all of the states and territories and mine, our plan ...
STEFANOVIC: See, it was your plan PM, it was your plan. It’s ok to say it was your plan.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I put it on the table.
STEFANOVIC: So, it was your plan? They agreed to your plan, and now they’re going to back out of it.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's only a plan when everybody agrees to it. So …
STEFANOVIC: Yeah.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they shouldn't, and I don't believe they will ultimately, Karl ...
STEFANOVIC: What will you do about it?
PRIME MINISTER: There'll be a bit of noise for now. Well, I believe we'll get there. That's the point. And, we’ve just got to remain focused on getting there because, as I say, it's a, it's a deal with the Australian people. They're the ones - seven and eight out of 10 Australians would have made it very clear that they want to move forward.
STEFANOVIC: Ok.
PRIME MINISTER: Now, it's like that movie in ‘The Croods’ - people wanted to stay in the cave. Some wanted to stay in the cave, and that young girl, she wanted to go out and live again and deal with the challenges of living in a different world. Well, COVID is a new, different world, and we need to get out there and live in it. We can't stay in the cave and we can get out of it safely. That's what the plan does.
STEFANOVIC: You just, you meandered to an area I never in my life thought you would meander to. So, just to be clear …
PRIME MINISTER: I like the movie.
STEFANOVIC: I understand. To be clear, you still believe the lockdown in New South Wales has to work, right? Or has that changed?
PRIME MINISTER: No, no, of course it does. The plan is that when you're in this phase, you've got to try and keep cases low, because we still have people who are unvaccinated, it’s a great risk to them.
STEFANOVIC: What is low, because I’m not sure, 800 cases is not low, PM.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, in, overseas, they've got tens of thousands of cases every day. I was talking to Boris Johnson the other day, he's amazed that our cases are that low by comparison to what it is around the rest of the world. So, it's all relative. But, the point is how, what should we be doing in this phase, we should keep them as low as we possibly can. And, the reason for that is, is we still have people, you know, we’ve got, we’ll be, probably be at about a third fully vaccinated, hopefully, by the end of this month. That still means there's two thirds who are not. That means there's still a lot of people at risk.
STEFANOVIC: Yeah.
PRIME MINISTER: And, that's why we've got to keep case numbers as low as we can. That's why, sadly, these lockdowns, which are infuriating, I get it, but they are necessary, and they will save lives in this phase of the plan.
STEFANOVIC: Ok. Our kids aren't included in the Doherty Institute modelling for those vaccination rates, and it's clear they're spreading the virus, and in some cases being hospitalised, very few, but still being hospitalised. When will they be vaccinated? Because, I mean, no one wants to see our kids sick and in hospital.
PRIME MINISTER: I agree, and 12 to 15-year-olds, which we now have TGA approval to vaccinate them, the ATAGI - which is the immunisation advisory group - we will get final advice, my understanding, is on Friday, which will enable us to go forward vaccinating 12 to 15-year-olds, and we will do that in parallel. When Doherty came back to us they said, ‘yes, there is that group of 12 to 15s, but the overall levels of 70 and 80 per cent in the adult over 16 population give that level of comfort more broadly across the population’. No country in the world, I'm advised, is currently vaccinating children under the age of 12. There are some trials going on in a few places, but there is no vaccine that is now currently approved as being able to be given to children under 12. So, the best way to protect children under 12, I mean, I have a child under 12, is to ensure that you're vaccinated, and that's also the advice from Doherty. The best way we can protect children aged 12 to 15 is to ensure that you're vaccinated, as parents, uncles, aunties, families. That's the best way, because that's where you're going to catch it from. That's one of the many ways you can catch it, but it's a predominant one. And, that's why we need to focus on that. When we have advice which says we can safely vaccinate children under 12, and it's not clear that will be the case, but if it is, then we will obviously proceed and do that. But, it's an important priority for us.
STEFANOVIC: Yeah.
PRIME MINISTER: We did discuss it last week. We’ve discussed it many times and we've been working at our plans to ensure that when we get that tick, we can do that in parallel with the broader national program.
STEFANOVIC: Alright, Afghanistan. The Taliban, I note this morning, is not budging on its August 31 deadline to get out. How are we travelling? Have you got any, any more updates for us?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, I do. Last night we got over 650 people out. It was our biggest night. That was on five flights, including one Kiwi flight. We've uplifted a lot of Kiwis. They were with us last night, uplifting Aussies, and so we thank them for that. But, five flights, over 650, almost 1,700 people we’ve evacuated now. The people who are doing this job on the ground, Karl, they are real heroes, compassionate heroes, dealing with people in the most distressing and dangerous of situations. Our ADF, our Air Force, flying people in and out, those from 3 Brigade there on the ground doing the job, providing security and supporting people getting onto these planes. Our Home Affairs officials, our Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade officials, you know, they're going through what is an extraordinarily intense time, and they're getting people out. Now, yes, that that is the deadline, and I've been working to that. I've made no assumptions about the Taliban. We know their form. We've been going like we won't be able to get another flight in the next day. So, we've been trying to make every every flight as successful as possible. We’ll keep doing that for as long as we can. If that deadline is able to be pushed out, we've made that clear to the United States that we would support that. But, in the meantime, we'll just keep getting on with the job.
STEFANOVIC: Good on you. Thank you for that. And, well done to all the ADF who are doing an outstanding job. Good to see you, Prime Minister. Appreciate it.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Karl. Cheers.