Prime Minister
CHRIS KENNY: Prime Minister, thanks for joining us. So I’m wondering whether you're seeing the relaxation in borders today, the expansion of the border bubble between Queensland and New South Wales, and South Australia opening up now to New South Wales as a bit of an outbreak of at least some common sense when it comes to state borders?
PRIME MINISTER: I think it is common sense and I welcome these decisions. I particularly congratulate Steven Marshall for going the full distance in what he's decided to do there. And I think South Australia will benefit greatly from that. But equally, I welcome the changes that have been made with Queensland. I look forward to more in the future as we further open up Australia. We're seeing a real improvement in case numbers in Victoria, but we're not there yet. New South Wales’ results have been tremendous. And of course, the ACT, well, they haven't had a case for over a very long period of time. So I think these are commonsense changes. Not before time. And I think that will just further assist getting people back into jobs and making sure that we live alongside the virus and not have the virus dictate how we live.
KENNY: Yeah, there's no doubt that it's a step in the right direction. But New South Wales Premier Gladys Berejiklian, she says, says she wants that new Queensland border opened up all together. You've still got Western Australia and Tasmania sort of locking themselves off to most of the nation. Are you worried that this border belligerence is deeply embedded in the states now? It’ll take a long while to unwind?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the impact of the borders economically is different in each state and territory. I mean, the health reasons for having them, I mean, that's for the chief health officers to explain and the Premiers to explain the medical basis for what they're doing. I've always said that. But if you look, for example, in Western Australia, they have an economy which has a very strong resources component to it. And if you look at what's happening in their economy, they've seen a lot of jobs come back and we welcome that. If you look in Queensland, you've seen a 44 per cent increase in the jobs coming back into the economy. But in New South Wales, you've seen 70 per cent. Now in Queensland the economy obviously draws a lot more on its tourism and hospitality side and being disconnected from that domestic tourism growth is obviously going to have an impact in Queensland. So I think the economic impacts of these borders are different in different states, depending on how their economies function. You look at, a state, like Tasmania, for example they will be benefiting greatly from the support that has been put in to income supports in Tasmania. Now, we're obviously transitioning away from that. But I know Tasmania are looking to open up as well. So, look, I know there's a lot of frustration about this, but you know, what I'm basically trying to do is get us all heading in that direction, get us opening up safely. And I think Australians very much, Chris, want it to be done safely. And they want to have the confidence that the testing and the tracing and the outbreak containment is there. But the, news actually, New South Wales has demonstrated how it's done. I'm pleased Victoria have taken up those lessons and they've dramatically improved their capability there. And Queensland always had a pretty good testing and tracing regime. So I think they can have a lot of confidence that should they be able to open up further, then their public health system, if they keep focussed on that, should be able to deal with the challenges that may come.
KENNY: But what about the unrealistic expectations where we have premiers, whether it's a Labor Premier in Queensland like Annastacia Palaszczuk or a Liberal Premier in South Australia like Steven Marshall, they're talking about wanting to see zero community transmission in a state the size of New South Wales for a couple of weeks. Is this unrealistic? Shouldn't they be leading their populations to understand that we need to live with the degree- with the disease to some degree rather than have those sorts of expectations?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the federal government definition of a hotspot is obviously very different to that, and we released that some weeks ago. And that also works hand in glove with having a strong testing, tracing and outbreak containment regime like New South Wales has. I mean, one of the reasons I think New South Wales has done so well economically has been that they've had the best testing and tracing and outbreak containment regime, which means they've been able to keep much of their economy open and at the same time manage the health effects, which means people have greater confidence. Now, we've still got a long way to go, even in states like New South Wales. We've got to get people back into our major CBD areas, whether it's in the CBD where I am now or out in Parramatta or Liverpool or or other parts of the city, Chatswood and so on, where a lot of small businesses depend on people working in those office towers. So we've still got a long way to go. But I think this commonsense move today, we look forward to seeing more of that. I know that there is a sense of security people feel from being behind a border. But that border is not a substitute for testing, tracing and outbreak containment. And New South Wales has demonstrated that and they've got both the health and the jobs to prove it.
KENNY: What about in Victoria? Obviously, we're seeing a dramatic reduction now and then the level of infections. We've got this curfew in place in Melbourne, still stage four lockdowns. Now, some eminent epidemiologists have suggested that the infection curve was turned down by stage three lockdowns, that all this additional stuff is in large part unnecessary. Do you have any hope that Daniel Andrews might start to open up the state on a slightly exaggerated timetable? Or do you just stay right out of that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I said at the outset that obviously the news around the curfew and the very strict controls that were put in place was devastating news to Melburnians and people across the state. That was just a statement of the obvious. I mean, that wasn't a statement really about the policy. It was that, how that would impact on people. And it obviously has impacted on them very significantly. It's impacted unemployment. It's impacted on investment. But there's also, I think, a view in, across Victoria that they obviously want to get out of this mess. It's been a terrible mess and they want to get out of it. And the fact that the numbers have come down over the course of these many weeks is welcome news. And I said at the time that I hope that's the worst case scenario in terms of the plan that they laid out at that point. And we have seen some improvements in that. I hope we can see more and they'll be judgements that the Premier and the Victorian government will make. And we'll certainly through both our the federal government officials through what's called the National Coordinating Mechanism, and Nev Power’s group which is the COVID commission, we're going to keep inputting into the Victorian government and to encourage further changes along the way, which ensures that as Victoria comes out of this, not only do we not risk them going back into it, and that is incredibly important, but also we can build up that industrial and small business capability and business and demand as quickly as possible. But let's also not kid ourselves about this. Look what's happening in the United Kingdom. Look what's happening in France. Look at what's happening in Germany, in Denmark, in Israel and all of these countries going through into some very significant further waves. And so we can't pretend like it's not there. Of course it's there. And if it takes hold, it has devastating impacts on all of these countries. So we've got to be careful. But I think in Australia, we can also be confident because of the good work we've done on testing and tracing and outbreak containment. And again, you know, it's the Premier’s, in New South Wales birthday today. So she got two birthday presents. I think one was the opening up of New South Wales to South Australia, the relaxation of that border up in Queensland. But but equally, I think there is an acknowledgement of the great work that she and her team have done to build the best testing and tracing regime in the country.
KENNY: I didn't realise it was Gladys Berejiklian’s birthday. Happy birthday to her if she's watching, did you send her any birthday wishes?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, I did. And it would be indelicate of me to say what significant milestone she's passed, but she's joined a club that I'm already a member of.
KENNY: Very good. Now, look, you're talking about what's happening in Europe and what we risk and what we've avoided in this country so far, of course. But what worries me is the level of fear that we're getting from some political leaders. Labor and Liberal, as I say, and they're telling people that everybody's at risk with this virus. Now we know we have to flatten the curve, keep it flat. We know we don't want to overwhelm the health system. We don't want to lose control, of course. And every passing of every person is very, very sad. But shouldn't we also be open about the fact that young people essentially don't, are not badly affected by this virus? That's that's a blessed relief. When you compare it to the Spanish flu and other pandemics, we ought to be open about the the people here at risk are the elderly and people with comorbidities. And therefore, as time goes on, we should be able to get much smarter and much more targeted about who we can protect. So that other people can go about their lives in a more normal manner. For instance, kids going back to school in Victoria?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, going back to school has always been something, you know, I've been a keen advocate for, and I think the medical evidence has always supported that. But we've also got to remember, Chris, is that the virus moves most quickly amongst young adults. And that's where outbreaks predominately occur and can move most rapidly across a population. And that's what actually puts the most vulnerable at risk. And so those we rely on to be the most diligent in their COVIDSafe behaviours, the distancing, the hand hygiene and all of those sorts of things, the COVIDSafe app and so on, are sort of young adults and those in their Middle Ages who move around and a large amount within our communities. And so those restrictions, when it just comes to normal COVIDSafe behaviours, I'm not talking about how many people you can have around to your house and those sorts of things. What I'm just talking about is the discipline, the habit of living alongside the virus is not people sort of living in the, you know, in a mosh pit- you can't have that. That's risky. And that's going to put everyone at risk. And we're seeing that again in the United Kingdom and many other places. And that's a terrible and wicked problem for them now to be dealing with. Now we have avoided all that largely except for in Victoria and in Melbourne in particular. And we don't want to go back there. So there is always a risk when you come out that people will fall out of the habit and people will see all these case numbers go down or people might think, well, I'm behind a border. You know, I don't have to do all that. Well, the truth is, you want to live alongside the virus, COVIDSafe behaviours are absolutely essential. And so that does need to become and always be part of our routine. That's why constantly getting tests, if you're feeling sick, don't go to work. All that sort of stuff is incredibly important, because if we slacken up on that, then we'll find ourselves back where most of the developed world is in the northern hemisphere right now. And Australia, when you look at it, as you know, Chris, we've had you look at the June quarter, in the June quarter. Our economy fell by 7 per cent. Devastating, absolutely devastating. But compared to the rest of the world, it was one of the lowest falls of any developed country. And when you look at our health results, both on the case incidents in Australia of COVID and the upsetting number of deaths that we've had compared to overseas. I mean, I know a lot of people on your programme talk about Sweden. Well, Sweden has had a bigger fall in their economy and they've had almost 20 times the number of deaths. So I don't really see that as a model to follow. I see Australia as a model to follow. And, of course, there's a spectrum of things that have been done across the states and territories. But when you add it all up, I'd rather be here than anywhere else.
KENNY: No, I think it's a very important point. Restrictions or not. There's gonna be a hit to the economy because the natural impact of the of the of the virus on people's behaviour. But we've got to keep refining this stuff. And I appreciate talking to you about it. I just wanted to go on to other issues, though, because the business of government continues,
PRIME MINISTER: It does.
KENNY: And your Energy Minister, Angus Taylor, has outlined the road map on energy for this country. Is this now, the what your critics have said is that the missing energy policy, the delivery of of energy policy certainty in this country?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we've outlined, I think, is very sensible. It's about technology, not taxation. That's what Angus has basically been saying. You know, you hear people say, oh, there's an absence of policy certainty. You hear it from the big energy companies. You hear it sometimes from, you know, the big business groups and you hear it from the Labor Party or others. What that means is simply this. What they want is a price that customers have to pay more for. That's the policy certainty they want, getting people to pay more for energy. Now that I assume then goes and underwrites a whole bunch of investment decisions that they want to make, but it's all based on the customer paying more. Now, we believe that we can avoid that by ensuring that we're investing in technologies and co-investing with the private sector in particular, to ensure that these new areas of technology, whether it's in hydrogen or the many others that Angus has outlined as being our priorities. And then there are sub-tiers to that which will guide investment in our technology sector. That means we can achieve lower emissions, more jobs, lower costs and more reliability. And that's what you have to achieve. That's what we're seeking to achieve. And so we're not going to sort of set up a system which basically enables people to get charged more for giving big companies a certainty about being able to rake in more revenue. What we're going to focus on is a regime which invests in technology, which gets both- keeps the lights on, does it at a more affordable price with lower emissions and more jobs.
KENNY: Just to clarify that, Prime Minister, you're saying it's not just the Greens and the socialist left of the Labor Party that want a price on carbon. It's also the major energy companies and they want that price not necessarily in order to reduce emissions, but in order to extract more money from the public?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, to basically put in behind their investments and they want a higher rate of return on those investments. Now, I understand that, I understand why a company would want that. But we believe there's another way to achieve that through our technology roadmap and giving it certainty about the technologies and the investments that we're making in the sector. And I mean we've got, we've always had this challenge up there in the Hunter with Liddell, it's going to close. And all of these plants have their effective life. And so that will always come to an end. Now, I remember when Hazelwood closed down, people said, oh, well, there'll be plenty of other projects that come on line and that will make up the difference and it'll all be okay. Well, that wasn't okay, prices shot up. And we know if we don't get reliable energy back into that system by the end of 2023, and that means you need to make a final investment decision in April of next year to achieve that, then we'll see prices go up. Now, we're not prepared to allow that happen. We want the private sector to step in and provide that additional reliable energy capability. And if they do so, great. But if they don’t get there by next April, well we'll do it through Snowy Hydro with a project that can actually happen, that you can actually get an approval for, that will be delivered on time and can have the desired effect that we want at that time. So, look, I suppose you'd put it this way, Chris. When it comes to energy, we're very practical. We know you need a, you need a sufficient amount of supply. You need a significant component of that which is reliable to support heavy industry or you lose all your heavy industry jobs and it needs to work hand in glove with the massive transition that's taking place over many years towards more renewable energies. So it's just a very practical plan. It's about, you know, investing in technology, not making the public pay more through higher taxes.
KENNY: Prime Minister, thanks for making time for us today.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, a lot Chris, good to chat.