Prime Minister
PAUL MURRAY: Socially distanced, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: We are.
MURRAY: Welcome to the show. I said it earlier in the editorial so it’s not going to be a guess to anyone. I think that the decision to override the deals that undermine our country is something that is much wanted and much overdue. How many deals could we be talking about here potentially?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'm not going to prejudice the process but we know there's at least 130 agreements that are out there, with 30 countries, and they are the ones we know about. And I think what we've done today, what the legislation will do, what the new powers will do, will will require whether it’s the local government, whether it’s universities in the relevant circumstances. State governments, where they’re doing these, they notify, they provide that information. So there's a new transparency about this. There's new reporting about this. So you know, everyone can know what's sort of going on. Now, in some cases, if it's the case that it's inconsistent with what we- it's our job to look after foreign affairs, when people go to a federal election and they vote, decide who's going to be the government. Well, that's one of the things they decide, we want you to do that. And so I think it's fairly reasonable that the federal government would do that and all other governments in the country would line up with that. So some could be inconsistent. And if that's the case well the powers there. But there may well be others that haven't been brought to our attention. And that actually could be quite helpful and could plug in more with what we're doing internationally.
MURRAY: Do you think that there are examples of these sorts of deals that are selling out the country for the 50 pieces of silver?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I wouldn't put the laws in if I wasn't concerned that that could happen. But what I have to be very careful about Paul, is I can't prejudice any of these decisions that the laws need to be established and that needs to go through the Parliament, which I believe they will. And then you've got to follow the process to assess them and then someone needs to make a decision. So I would never put any of that at risk by speculating about which ones might be the subject of that scrutiny and fall foul.
MURRAY: Belt and Road has been something a lot of people concluded would be affected by this, so much so that the Victorian Premier was asked about it. His response seemed fairly sharp, that essentially he's focussed on the pandemic and you are focussed on other things. And there seemed to be an innate criticism in what he said today. Did you see his comments?
PRIME MINISTER: I saw them reported, but the Premier should be focussed on the pandemic and I should be focussed, not only on the pandemic, but also my job, which is protecting Australia's interest in promoting Australia's interests and promoting Australia’s interests. It is my job to ensure that our foreign affairs are in order and presenting a consistent position to the rest of the world. And there is not an undermining of anything that is occurring in Australia against that. But it's also my job to deal with Defence Forces. It's also my job to deal with cyber attacks and terrorism and so on. It's my job to deal with many, many things as Prime Minister. So I'll keep getting on with mine. I'm sure he’ll keep getting on with his.
MURRAY: And he also, I mean it didn't seem like he was saying it as a compliment. But the idea that somehow you had to present the list of alternative places for Victoria to be doing trade deals with, as far as I know, the Belt and Road isn't about trade,
PRIME MINISTER: No it’s not a trade deal.
MURRAY: What do you say to that portion of it where essentially if we cut off these sorts of arrangements, then there's going to be money that's not going to be flowing into economies like Victoria, I’m just putting forward his logic?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah no I understand. But I mean, trade, our government, the government I’ve been part of over the last seven years is the one that lifted our trade agreements, as a share of our total trade from 29 percent to 76 percent. Trade agreements with China, with Korea, with Japan, now working on a very important one with the European Union and the United Kingdom, with Indonesia, a digital commerce arrangement in Singapore. So we've been opening up opportunities for trade. I mean, we've had record trade surpluses. Trade has been one of our government's great successes. And when we strike those deals, all the states and territories benefit. Whether it's seafood out of Tasmania or services trade out of Victoria. This has been part of what was occurring for Australia just before COVID hit. And that has been one of the success stories. And we do that working with states and territories. So of course we do. But the argument that somehow this stops people trading with China is nonsense, or any other country, for that matter. Our trade, particularly with China, our biggest trading partner, has never been greater and never been more valuable.
MURRAY: Are you surprised by the amount of psychoanalysing there seems to be of your relationship with Daniel Andrews? Do they love each other? Do they not love each other? Tell us, what's the truth of the Andrews-Scomo relationship?
PRIME MINISTER: We obviously come from different political sides of the fence. A team Red and a team Blue, as you often refer to it, but our- we both understand, I believe each other's responsibility. He's a Premier. I'm a Prime Minister. There’s stuff we've got to get done. And it's our jobs to work together to make it happen. Whether one likes each other or not, well it helps. And there is, I've got to say, there's always been a great civility in how we work together, and we've never had a difficulty in being able to work through issues, certainly disagree on some things. And clearly, this is one. But we'll just get back at it tomorrow. And whether it's working together on health issues or the pandemic or anything like that or indeed other opportunities in mental health. I mean, one of the things that he and I actually have spent a lot of time talking about has been mental health and how there's a royal commission on mental health in Victoria. And we've got a lot of stuff we'd like to do there together. But also the other one has been on skills training. Now we have slightly different views about how that can be best done. But we both agree that getting more Australians skilled for jobs, that will be there and with the skills they need to do those jobs, and that businesses need. So there's a lot you can agree on. So look, I tend to focus on the things you can agree on, that’s how you get on.
MURRAY: Also I mean, there is this strain of feedback that exists, no doubt you see it as well, which is, why doesn't Canberra just take over the mess in Victoria? Why doesn't the Prime Minister step in on borders in Western Australia? Why doesn't the Prime Minister overrule the Premier of Tasmania? Insert insert. It feels to me like there's a lot of Australians that need a civics lesson because we've either got too used to the concept of a Prime Minister can do whatever the heck they want, without actually understanding there is a limit to your power isn’t there?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course, there is. I mean, Prime Ministers are not emperors, they’re Prime Ministers. And that's what our Constitution provides for. We have checks and balances in our systems of government, and states have responsibilities. Federal government has responsibilities. And I understand that people, frankly, couldn't care less. Is it your job or is it their job? They just want the problem fixed. You guys sort it out. I get that. And when it's not sorted out, people get really cranky. And I get that too. And they’ll direct that at me. They'll direct that at Premiers. They'll direct it at the local mayor. They'll direct it at the dog on a bad afternoon on a Friday, if they're particularly cranky and I get that, I understand that. And so that's why it's important for me as a Prime Minister and other Premiers as much as possible to try and work together because outside of the room, no one cares whether it's my job or their job. They just want the thing fixed. And when we take that attitude, we do get a lot more done. But it would, people write to me, they ring this office. They say, why can't you come in and do that? Well, that's not an option that's there, nor it is one that I think necessarily helps the problem at the end of the day. At the end of the day, there’s a huge problem in Victoria with the pandemic, and we need to fix it. And it's going to get fixed a lot quicker if people are working together, not arguing.
MURRAY: Do we have to lock in a little more in terms of the way the states are working, about how we step out of this, because it feels like those rampant days we were all very aware of, this is changing here, but it doesn't seem like there's a Formula, X number of cases Y number of days equals this?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it would be nice if that was that simple too by the way. One of the reasons I've been so enthusiastic in talking about what's happened in New South Wales is I think New South Wales is showing the way. And that is, there's a virus, it's going to come, there'll be outbreaks, but if you test if you trace, if people are using the COVIDSafe app, all that's happening. Well you can keep your economy open and deal with outbreaks at the same time. When Gladys and Dan Andrews and I talked about the Victoria - New South Wales border, I gotta say I don’t think any of us were particularly keen on there being one. But it did necessitate it, regrettably, that the three of us had always been those most in favour of trying to keep Australia as open as possible in terms of borders. But it needed to happen. And the thing is this, if you put a border in, if you put any restriction, it's going to cost. It's going to hurt. There’s going to be an impact. And I've got to tell you, one of the things that I, that really bristled me most particularly over those months, was knowing that when you had to announce that things regrettably had to be shut down because the unknowns were so great. I mean, if you go back to the early part of the pandemic Paul, no one knew what was going to happen. We were looking at images of people digging mass graves in New York, and big tents full of bodies in the UK, Spain, Italy, ventilators running in short supply. And we had to make sure that we could get the health system up to a level where it could cope with a pandemic of that scale running at full flight. Now, once we got on top of that and we are on top of that element of it, then that's when we say, okay let's open up now. Let's get moving again, let's get the economy going again and going towards mid-June we were on that plan and that was great. And then, of course, the Victorian wave hit, and that’s really knocked us back quite a way. But what I want us to do now is exactly I think what you're suggesting is okay, we’ve got to look past that and how do we start opening up again? New South Wales has demonstrated you can deal with the virus coming here and keep everything open. I saw a quote by Alfred Deakin, one of our early Prime Ministers, and you know, a father of the federation. And he said ‘Australia, one and indivisible’, Australia wasn't built to have borders. In fact, that was sort of a point not to have them. And so we're not set up. So if you put a border in place, even if you have goodwill to try and resolve every one of these annoying, frustrating issues, it's not going to be perfect and you're never going to get it perfect. That's why they created Australia.
And so I'd like to go back to plan A, which is Australia, where you don't have them. And the sooner we can get to that, the better, because it's costing people their livelihoods, it's costing people their jobs. And worse than that, on occasions, the number of letters I've gotten, I've been advocating, of course, but people getting access to medical treatment, or accompanying loved ones. These are, these are heartbreaking stories. Now, I'm not suggesting, you know, the officials who are dealing with this are heartless, but that is the consequence of when you put a border up. So it's not like, oh, we put the border up, everything's okay and everybody's protected, no, there are real costs to that, too. And I think it's fair enough for Australians to know how those things have been balanced up. There's the risk of the spread. That's true. But there's also the great damage that is done to people's lives and livelihoods as well. And that's the assessment they, so on New South Wales - Victorian border, I would think that the minute we believe that that risk of the transfer is at a level that that is no longer necessary, I believe both premiers and I will move in a heartbeat to get rid of it.
MURRAY: Good.
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely. Now, that was done as a co-operative arrangement. Others have made unilateral decisions on this, and that's a bit more difficult.
MURRAY: We've got a bit more time.
PRIME MINISTER: Sorry
MURRAY: Not at all, I think people need ot hear it. They'll be happy to hear that. It's been a week where there's been a lot of discussion about aged care and we're in this strange scenario where the best way of working out what's wrong with aged care is to have a royal commission. That's what's happening right now. But there's a lot of people who want to use examples about what's happening in aged care for all the obvious politics. But there's real human beings, and I've said a lot about that this week. What do you want to say to people who've got a mum or dad in aged care in Australia right now?
PRIME MINISTER: Well I was a son of a father in aged care, not that long ago. And so I know what that's like. And I know what the concerns are. And the first thing is, know that those who are there looking after you family, they are amazing people and they're doing a really hard job. But I think in the overwhelming number of cases, those people just are loving people in those facilities and they love doing what they're doing, now I can't say that that is going to be the case in every facility. Nothing is perfect. I'd say that first. Secondly, we will just keep trying to address this problem. A billion dollars extra every single year. And it's changing, what we need from our aged care facilities. I mean, 20 years ago, people would go into facilities for a lot longer. These days, when people go into aged care facilities, their visit is a lot shorter. And there'll be a period and then they'll move into a palliative care stage. And we all understand that, but that means the clinical requirements of facilities are very different. The costs of doing that, very different. And the aged care royal commission, I called because I knew there were just unanswered questions and unacceptable situations occurring. And that's what a royal commission is intended to address. And then you got to deal with the brutal reality of it. But that's not the only thing that needs to happen. And that's why last Budget, next Budget. The one after that, we'll keep doing things. I mean, in-home aged care places, is one of the big challenges and we've increased that from 60,000, to 150,000 now and it's going up to about 165,000. And that's because people want to stay home longer. Good. And about 99 percent of people who are on a waiting list for a higher level in-home care package are already on some other arrangement. So it's not like people are on no package. They're on a package, but obviously want to be on a higher one. And so we've got to get through that. But you've got to get the people to do the jobs who do that. It's not unlike the National Disability Insurance Scheme, a massive scheme of magnificent, I think, ambition. I am a passionate supporter of this, but it's pretty, it's very hard to deliver. You've got to train tens, if not hundreds of thousand people right across the country to deliver these services. And the same is true in aged care when you need more and more and more people, now that's a lot of jobs. And that is also good news. I mean, we are training right now Paul, people who are working with Virgin and Qantas, who know how to look after people, they are now being trained, right now in Victoria and are going into aged care facilities. That's something we've been working on for a while. And in the height of the pandemic, in the first phase, we were taking people who used to be taking calls in call centres for Qantas, and places like that. And then they were taking calls with Services Australia and getting benefits to people. And if there is a bright spot in all of this awfulness, it has been the adaptiveness of Australians. And I’ve got to say in the public service too, I mean, we have people in this building sitting in committee rooms upstairs who usually look after committees of the parliament, they were doing the same thing for Services Australia. There was a lot of everybody in. Let's get this sorted. And a lot of help was provided in a very short time. So we've shown a lot of grit, I think. In the parliament today I said that, today in parliament I just wanted to thank people.
MURRAY: All hands on deck. It's a good Australian thing. Last one here,
PRIME MINISTER: Sorry.
MURRAY: Not at all mate. You’re the Prime Minister, please! It’s good for people to hear from you rather than just see the little five second piece. How are you powering down? Clearly, there's so much happening every day. Are you stealing power naps? Are you, you know, deliberately don't talk to me on Saturdays? How are you getting through?
PRIME MINISTER: Well I power down better if the Sharks are powering up, sadly that didn't happen last weekend, hopefully that will improve this weekend. You know me, I love my footy. But most of all, I love being with my family and they come down here often to be with me on a weekend or I try and get back up to Sydney when that's possible. Of course that's a huge part of my life. I mean, I’ve got a wonderful church family as well. And I connect with that, so, of our lives as well. I try to get to the pool and get a swim, but it's not, it’s not open this week. So that isn’t helping. And when I can, I like to cook my famous curries. And, I got, I did the Sri Lankan lamb baduma on the weekend. I don’t know if I get the pronunciation right, but I tell you I got the flavours right.
MURRAY: Ay! That’s all that matters.
PRIME MINISTER: That’s all that matters. So you got to do stuff like that. And what was fun on Saturday night I said I cooked this, and posted it up there and I said to the people in Melbourne look, thinking of you, hope you’re doing alright, people were sending me messages back, well we’re cooking lamb, and we’re Greeks we’re cooking this, and you know we’re Indian, we’re cooking this, we’re Chinese Australians we’re cooking this, and it was just a lovely sort of banter. And that's how you get through it. Australians help each other get through it. Our sense of humour. But more importantly, our sense of I think genuine care and compassion for each other.
MURRAY: Good man. PM, thank you very much.
PRIME MINISTER: Good on you Paul. Cheers.