Prime Minister
FAINE: So you’ve gone from coal-aphobia to recognising a climate emergency. What’s your credibility on climate policy?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, those things are mutually exclusive, Jon. I mean, we are allowed to have reliable energy. That’s okay. And we’re also able to reduce our emissions. These two things can be achieved. And how do I know that? Because that’s exactly what we’ve been doing. When we came to government in 2013, we inherited a more than-700 million tonne deficit on meeting our 2020 emissions targets. Now we’re going to beat that by 367 million tonnes through the measures that I am saying will be extended today. And that’s continued to occur…
FAINE: Five years after this virtually the same proposal was abandoned, so we’ve lost five years.
PRIME MINISTER: It wasn’t abandoned. It hasn’t been abandoned. It’s been running for the last five years. I mean there are…
FAINE: Sorry, what you’re announcing today?
PRIME MINISTER: That program has been running and we’re extending it as part of what I’m announcing today.
FAINE: You’re allocating more funds for more of it…
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
FAINE: It’s been undersold, underprepared, underrun…
PRIME MINISTER: No, Jon, none of that is true.
FAINE: And now suddenly you’re saying, ‘We’ve got an election coming we’ve got to crank it up.’
PRIME MINISTER: No, Jon, none of what you’ve just said is true at all. What we’ve been…
FAINE: That’s the ACF’s analysis of it.
PRIME MINISTER: They’re welcome to make their commentary, like anyone is. But we have been running this program and it’s been responsible for around 200 million tonnes of abatement over the period of running those programs. It has been a successful program that has helped us meet our existing targets, the 2020 target, which we will now beat by 367 million tonnes, and will be a key role in meeting our 2030 targets, which we’ll meet in a canter.
FAINE: Isn’t the reality, in fact though, that you’re on a tightrope, on the one hand you’ve got the coal lobby and the resources sector, some of whom are changing their mind, mind you, on one side, what works with the coal industry is disastrous for people who want action and more action on climate change, and you’re on that tightrope trying to juggle the two.
PRIME MINISTER: No, Jon, what I’ve got is a sensible, practical policy which is based on reducing our emissions, which we need to do and have done, and a plan to keep doing that out to 2030 and meet our targets which will see emissions per capita fall per person by more than 50 percent and our emissions intensity fall by more than two thirds. Now, only Brazil has got a target better than that in the G20. That’s better than everyone else, what we’re doing, and our record of achievement is one that says, we meet our targets when we set them. We set them responsibly. And I don’t believe I have to choose between our environment and our economy. I think both are achievable. And what we’ve got is the runs on the boards to demonstrate that.
FAINE: And to those who say…
PRIME MINISTER: So these misperceptions that are out there, well that’s for them to explain. All I know is our record.
FAINE: Too little, too late, is the widely heard rejoinder.
PRIME MINISTER: How can it be ‘too little, too late’ when what we’ve put in place means we exceed our targets by 367 million tonnes? Explain that to me.
FAINE: Well, those targets keep shifting around, apart from [inaudible].
PRIME MINISTER: No, they don’t. They haven’t moved around at all. We had our 2020 target, which we had, and we’re going to meet it and beat it. We’ve turned around a 700 million tonne deficit that Labor left us, to achieve that target. And we’re going to better it by 367 million tonnes. Now that’s a 1.1 billion tonne turnaround on emission reductions that our government has achieved. Now the plan I’m outlining today builds on that success. See, one of the problems with this debate, Jon, is that it doesn’t focus on the results, I mean, what’s the real test of a policy? That it meets the objectives that it set out to achieve. And that’s exactly what we’ve done. Now there’s been a lot of hot air and shouting at the clouds on this issue, but what we’ve done is just get on and achieve. And our plan to achieve our 2030 targets is based on the success of the policy that we already have in place. And how do I know it is successful? We’re going to beat our target.
FAINE: Some of that shouting and hot air has come from your side of the ledger.
PRIME MINISTER: Well there’s been plenty of shouting and hot air, Jon, but what I’m saying is…
FAINE: Well, to those on your side, who have been holding up or even saying there is no need for further action on climate change, what do you say to them today?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what I’m saying is, whatever people have been saying, we’ve just been getting on with the job. That’s what our government has been doing. See, this is what I’m talking about, the debate runs around, and whether it’s the bubble or anything else, what matters is what gets done. And we believe we need to take action in this area and have been ever since we come to government, turning around, you know, Labor talks big on this, but they left us a 700 million tonne deficit on carbon abatement, and we’ve turned that around by 1.1 billion. So, that’s our record and I stand by it. And it’s with programs that were started, like the Emissions Reduction Fund, it’s continuing the programs of ARENA and CFC and all of this, Battery of the Nation which we’re backing in, and particularly the Marinus Interlink with Tasmania, I mean, that of itself, with reliable hydro, that’s a 2,500 megawatt capacity.
FAINE: Snowy Hydro 2, still committed?
PRIME MINISTER: Snowy Hydro 2, absolutely, totally.
FAINE: Okay…
PRIME MINISTER: I mean, that’s all part of the plan.
FAINE: You know, the Labor Party love it every time you talk about them?
PRIME MINISTER: The Labor Party?
FAINE: Mmm.
PRIME MINISTER: I don’t really care what they think.
FAINE: But…
[Laughter]
FAINE: But every time you reference them, every time you make them more relevant. They go, ‘Cha-ching, cha-ching, hooray, thank you. That’s the Prime Minister doing our work for us.’
PRIME MINISTER: I’m not quite sure what you’re referring to. When I refer to the Labor Party, I talk about the fact that their emissions reduction targets are going to cost wage earners $9,000 each a year. That’s what the independent evaluation showed last year. You want to talk about the Labor Party…
FAINE: That’s contested…
PRIME MINISTER: I talk about how they’re going to hit retirees with a $5 billion a year tax.
FAINE: Well, they’re announcing today a $640 million fund over four years for what they call ‘bank fairness’.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the Labor Party’s answer to every question, Bills Shorten’s answer to every question is higher taxes. I mean, how much tax does he think the Australian economy can bear? He already has it at $200 billion in higher taxes over the next 10 years…
FAINE: He’s proposing tax relief for most Australians whilst at the same time going to get rid of what he says is a rort…
PRIME MINISTER: Jon, that’s not true…
FAINE: That some people have exploited through access to franking credits.
PRIME MINISTER: I’m sorry Jon, I’m going to do a fact check on you okay.
FAINE: Excellent, we like that.
PRIME MINISTER: $144 billion is the legislated tax cuts that we currently have taken through the Parliament. Labor have said they are going to halve that.
FAINE: Mmhmm.
PRIME MINISTER: So how can they be providing more tax relief when they’re actually halving the amount of tax relief that is currently legislated before the Parliament?
FAINE: I’ll leave that for Mr Shorten and Mr Bowen to explain but it’s going to be an interesting contest.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you’re the one who said that they’re cutting taxes.
FAINE: Well, they, I, I’m referring to what their policy claims are, which is only reasonable.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think they are highly dubious. Bill Shorten’s answer to every question is, ‘I’ll just tax you more.’
FAINE: Overnight, its been announced by the Department of Veterans’ Affairs that the Dawn Service in France at the Villers-Bretonneux Memorial Centre, the Monash Centre, which has just been completed at a cost of, I think, $100 million, they don’t want to run a Dawn Service anymore, they want to move it to a 10 o’clock ANZAC Day service, what’s your view, is it good or bad?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that’s not gonna happen. I’ve spoken to the Minister this morning, the service will go ahead at dawn as usual.
FAINE: Because?
PRIME MINISTER: Because that’s the right decision.
FAINE: Regardless of what it costs and how many people turn up?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I think it’s important to continue the Dawn Service in the way it’s been done. I’ve discussed that matter with the Minister this morning and they will consult with the local community there, but I believe the Dawn Service should continue in its current form and I’ve made that very clear to the Minister this morning.
FAINE: That will be very welcome news in many quarters, Dawn Services are Dawn Services, they’re not 10 o’clock in the morning/morning tea services.
PRIME MINISTER: I agree. And when this matter was brought to my attention, I dealt with it.
FAINE: They’re incredibly moving, it’s astonishing that so many people now turn up all over Australia and all around the world.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, well it’s true. I mean, other services, you know, when we have the 11am services on Armistice Day, they are equally also very moving, there’s an importance about that time. Now, I understand that the Villers-Bretonneux service, the dawn element of that is different to what it is at Gallipoli, I mean it was a dawn landing in Gallipoli, but that said, there is a tradition that has developed in recent times about that service in Villers-Bretonneux and I want to ensure the integrity of that is kept because the people I care most about on this is our veterans and how they feel about it.
FAINE: It’s a cliché for journalists to ask Prime Ministers about Newspoll, and the latest Newspoll’s come out this morning, so I won’t ask you about the figures which show nothing’s changed, but border protection has been a lively issue during the last two weeks, and the figures haven’t budged. Does that mean border protection is not something that changes peoples’ votes?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, whether it is or whether it isn’t is not really my concern. What my concern is that we have strong border protection and that’s the only thing that’s ever motivated me.
FAINE: And you were hoping that that would result in an improvement for your side in the polls.
PRIME MINISTER: No, I was hoping that I would be able to stop the Labor Party from weakening our border protection. That’s what I was hoping. And now I’m taking action to make sure that it doesn’t.
FAINE: So Newspoll’s result on this issue specifically, in the last little while, would suggest that the parties are level-pegging on that topic…
PRIME MINISTER: That’s not actually true…
FAINE: When peoples’ voting intention…
PRIME MINISTER: No, that’s actually not true if you read what the polls said today. I mean, the Coalition is overwhelmingly favoured to the Labor Party when it comes to national security and the economy. But my point is this Jon, when it comes to border protection or these measures, the only thing that ever drives me on this is making sure that it’s strong and secure so I never have to see the human carnage of 1,200 people who died at sea ever again. That’s what motivates me. That’s why I’ve done everything I’ve done in this area.
FAINE: Would you do the same if it cost you votes?
PRIME MINISTER: I would.
FAINE: That’s hard to believe.
PRIME MINISTER: Well Jon, you can make up whatever mind you like about this but when it comes to border protection, I don’t think anyone can doubt my conviction, sincerity on this.
FAINE: I think we all want to see people not drowning…
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I know how to stop that, Jon.
FAINE: … we also have a view of assessing politicians and what they offer and we always see it through the prism of what’s going to get them re-elected.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, well you see Jon, I have a very unique perspective on this because I was the one who had to stop it. And I had to make the decisions that resulted in that. So I am probably well qualified to make a judgement about how you stop boats and how you stop deaths at sea. Plenty of other people have opinions that have no consequences but when you are the minister responsible for doing it, you have to make the decisions and you have to deal with the consequences of those decisions. And that’s what I’ve done. And I’ve always done it for one simple purpose. That is, our borders should be strong, and I don’t want to see kids on boats dying.
FAINE: And it, also, has been a key part of your ascendancy to a leadership position and ultimately being the Prime Minister, which is, I’m not suggesting for a moment that you would only do it for those reasons but the two fit well together. They fitted, they dove-tailed together.
PRIME MINISTER: So what are you suggesting?
FAINE: If those policies were unpopular, would you have still pursued them?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes. Because some of those policies were unpopular. I remember turnbacks, before the 2013 election. I was lectured on the fact that they wouldn’t work, and that wasn’t actually a particular popular policy, back in 2013. If you, sort of, have a look back, you’ll see that’s the case. Regional processing was more acceptable, temporary protection visas was more acceptable. Well I can tell you, turnbacks was not a popular policy over that time and it was split quite evenly, but I knew that if unless you did that, and did it successfully, you could not stop the boats. So, I did it with General Campbell and others who were very involved in pulling all that together, and Jim Molan, and we had a plan. We were mocked about that plan, on the ABC, in Fairfax, in other places. They mocked us, they said it couldn’t be done, the Labor Party said it couldn’t be done, the Greens said it couldn’t be done. Well you were wrong. It could be done, it was done. It was achieved. And I am never going to allow our border protection regime, if I have anything to do with it, from being compromised again because the consequences of that are deadly.
FAINE: So you will do anything you can to get the best laws in place to advance those policies but you rejected the advice of the security agencies on the medevac laws last week …
PRIME MINISTER: No, that’s not true…
FAINE: and it wasn’t enacted.
PRIME MINISTER: No that’s not true. That report was rubbish.
FAINE: They said that you could include in Kerryn Phelps’ legislation…
PRIME MINISTER: We opposed the bill.
FAINE: …a provision that would allow for people to be medevaced to Australia but then returned.
PRIME MINISTER: No, no…
FAINE: and you didn’t adopt that recommendation.
PRIME MINISTER: No, no, Jon, you’ve got to stop reading the Saturday paper. It’s not true. That report is just not true. That bill...
FAINE: What half of it was not true? That was the advice from the security agency.
PRIME MINISTER: No it wasn’t Jon. It wasn’t. We declassified the advice. We released the advice.
FAINE: Partially leaked to the Australian newspaper.
PRIME MINISTER: We declassified the advice so Jon, what you are putting to me…
FAINE: The security agencies had to say “Hang on, that’s not what we said”..
PRIME MINISTER: No Jon, what you are putting to me is just not true.
FAINE: What part of it?
PRIME MINISTER: I’m saying the report is not true. Ok? So we acted in accordance with our security advice, and that was, that bill should not be accepted. That bill was going to weaken our border security arrangements…and it has.
FAINE: That bill can be improved. That bill can be improved with a simple addition
PRIME MINISTER: No, it can’t actually Jon, you can’t. That bill in any form was going to weaken our border protection laws. In any form. Any form.
FAINE: But if it was going to go through because you no longer control the numbers…
PRIME MINISTER: No, I’m not going to split hairs with you Jon…
FAINE: … it can be ameliorated and improved.
PRIME MINISTER: …on border protection I don’t trade. It’s absolute. And that’s how I act. So, we acted in accordance with our security advice. It’s a bad change to the law. It;s actually now complicated even further, frankly, how these matters are arranged. But I’ll tell you one thing. At least people know what my view is on this Jon. I mean Bill Shorten has changed his position on Christmas Island every day. So, I mean, who are you going to trust? Someone who doesn’t know what they think about this issue and are swayed by whoever spoke to them last. Or someone who’s actually had very real experience in this area, has got the results, and knows what they think.
FAINE: 13 minutes to 9, Scott Morrison, the Prime Minister is with me, we’re running out of time rapidly. There’s been several calls over the weekend for you to return to a John Howard definition of ministerial accountability, which would have seen at least Mathias Cormann, if not others also coming into strife in the last week or two.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think you have made a couple of leaps there Jon. I mean, I mean, what was discussed last week was shown to be of no substance.
FAINE: Which bit?
PRIME MINISTER: Well all of it.
FAINE: Well Mathias Cormann didn’t pay for travel.
PRIME MINISTER: And he paid it back.
FAINE: It was offered to him, once…
PRIME MINISTER: Once it was drawn to his attention, he paid it back.
FAINE: Once it was made public.
PRIME MINISTER: Bill Shorten didn’t declare a donation to his own campaign for eight years. So I am not going to get lectured by the Labor Party.
FAINE: No it wasn’t the Labor Party actually, I’m not even aware of what the Labor Party…
PRIME MINISTER: Well it was the Labor Party who pulled this out of their…
FAINE: This doesn’t pass the sniff test…
PRIME MINISTER: …out of their bottom smear draw because they were under pressure in the Parliament. And that’s, look I get it, I get it how all that works…
FAINE: The Minister in charge of finances who doesn’t look after his own credit card transactions.
PRIME MINISTER: He paid back the money and that’s the end of the matter.
FAINE: Doesn’t pass the sniff test, does it?
PRIME MINISTER: That’s your assertion.
FAINE: Major contract goes from a government department to a …
PRIME MINISTER: There’s no link between those Jon, look Jon, if the Labor Party wants to get into those smears, look, I understand that. But, I, I don’t think I should allow you to draw a connection between those two events because there is no connection between those events, there is none. There was no connection between Minister Cormann and the decision on that contract. None. Absolutely none. He wasn’t the decision maker.
FAINE: And Joe Hockey likewise?
PRIME MINISTER: Joe Hockey is not even a member of the Government.
FAINE: He says, ‘hang on’…
PRIME MINISTER: Joe works for DFAT. And so I am sure the Secretary will deal with whatever, if any, matters there are to be dealt with as she made clear to estimates last week. This was a smear campaign by a desperate Labor Party that was under the pump and those who want to sort of support the Labor Party by continuing to give that oxygen well, they can, but that’s what it is.
FAINE: Ita Buttrose, not on the list, of possible chairs, of the board of this organisation the ABC but certainly well-placed sources in today’s newspapers say even though there were no men on the list that was put to Cabinet, Ita Buttrose may leapfrog the field?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, two things, a) Cabinet have not considered this matter, Cabinet will soon consider this matter. It is true that she was not one of those who have been independently recommended. I can confirm that the independent recommendations did not include a female candidate…
FAINE: None at all?
PRIME MINISTER: None at all.
FAINE: What was your reaction when you saw the list?
PRIME MINISTER: Surprise…
FAINE: Surprise? Disappointment?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, of course. But, anyway, the Government will make a decision and we will go through the normal processes that are required in terms of consultation with the Opposition and on that, the rules on that are very clear by the way. But the Labor Party is over assuming on what that entitles them to but they already think they have won the election and that seems to be the way that they’re behaving.
FAINE: You have meetings with Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews today…
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
FAINE: What’s on the agenda?
PRIME MINISTER: A number of issues. I was in Gippsland yesterday, meeting with drought affected farmers, and they have raised a number of issues with me about support. I mean, the two biggest things they’re seeking Jon is,one the fodder subsidies which are provided in NSW and Queensland, and what that did, is that it has lifted the price of fodder and Victorian farmers are now in a double whammy of having to pay higher prices for their fodder but also not having the subsidies. Now those subsidies are provided by state governments and they are very keen to see those provided by the state Government. And the other issue is rate relief. And again, that’s a matter for state governments.
FAINE: Local council rate relief?
PRIME MINISTER: Local council rate relief. I spoke to local farmers yesterday and there rates are in the tens of thousands. I mean, the councils themselves, it’s about 45-50% of their revenue base so they have got a lot of work to do in this area too, so look, I’ll relay that to the Premier. I think he and I are working quite well together on this issue so I am just, so, l, that’s what they raised with me. We will continue to provide the support we do through drought assistance.
FAINE: We are going to see a bit more of you in Victoria in the next few months…
PRIME MINISTER: Oh. I am, you certainly will. The $5 billion drought fund that went through the House of Representatives. I was genuinely quite surprised Labor voted against the drought fund. I mean, I’m still shaking my head about it to be honest.
FAINE: And we’ve got seats now, Liberal seats which the Labor Party, with what are projected to be swings, seats that they now have within their their gaze, which otherwise they thought were well beyond their reach so we will see more of you.
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, elections are always a contest whether it’s are in Victoria, or North Queensland, or Western Australia, we will be everywhere.
FAINE: Do we clone Scott Morrison’ so you can try and get around more places than you otherwise can?
PRIME MINISTER: (laugh) No, I think one is enough.
FAINE: (laugh)
PRIME MINISTER: I think one is enough for you Jon.
FAINE: No, well, we don’t get enough time…
PRIME MINISTER: Well I am pleased to be here with you today.
FAINE: We may have an overinflated sense of our self-importance. We like to see the Prime Minister here in town.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I am happy to be here.
FAINE: It’s good when we do have the chance.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks Jon.
FAINE: I’ve made you late for your next appointment. I’ve got your staff glaring at me through the glass, I’ll have to let you go.
PRIME MINISTER: Not a problem.
FAINE: Thank you for your time this morning.
PRIME MINISTER: Thank you.