MITCHELL: On the line in our Canberra studio, the Prime Minister, Mr Rudd. Good morning.
PM: Good morning Neil.
MITCHELL: Does the Australian Government have any idea where these people are now?
PM: We are working on that as we speak, through ASIO. I don't want to go into the details of where they are or what contact's been made. Our challenge right now, Neil, is to establish the facts. That's what we're doing.
MITCHELL: But do we know that they're ok?
PM: On the basis of the advice from the Foreign Minister to me, yes, that is correct. But the Foreign Minister will be making a further statement this morning. The Foreign Minister is working through this with all the other security agencies and has been doing so overnight.
MITCHELL: So we're looking either at people involved in the plot or had their identities stolen. Do we know which it is?
PM: The Dubai authorities, Neil, said to us in the last 24 hours that they believe that Australian passports were used, or possibly forged, in the conduct of the assassination which recently occurred in Dubai. Secondly, we therefore are working with them and our own agencies to establish the facts, and in doing that, we are also speaking with the Ambassador of Israel this morning, here in Canberra.
MITCHELL: But am I right in assuming that we have had contact with these three people?
PM: You are right to assume contact has been had with various individuals. I don't want to go into the detail of that, because the security agencies are involved. And the two big issues for us here, I think for every member of your listening public Neil- one is the integrity of the Australian passport system, because we've got literally a million Australians each year or more using our passports, and if they- those passports come under any threat or any suspicion in the future, it's a problem for everybody. The second is Australia's international standing, and the way in which we are viewed around the rest of the world if our passports have been used or forged in the conduct of an assassination.
MITCHELL: Would it be fair to say- I mean, the Australian passport's been very well respected, as you say. Would it be fair to say if they have been misused in this way that it does, well, it poses a potential threat to Australians travelling on their passport?
PM: That's why we're taking this seriously, Neil. As I said earlier this morning, this isn't a trifling matter. It's not just one of those things that comes and goes as far as problems of national security are concerned. This goes not just to our national security interests, it goes also to the integrity of the passport system used by literally millions of Australians each year.
That's why we have to get to the bottom of the facts, we've got to see what the messages are arising from that in terms of the integrity of our passport system as well. But you know something, what we've got to establish first and foremost is, was there a State involved in the use or forgery of these passports in the conduct of an assassination- and as I have said earlier today, it doesn't matter which State it is, any State that chooses to do this in relation to Australian passports, frankly, is treating the Australian people, the Australian Government, and the Australian nation with contempt. We will not let the matter lie.
MITCHELL: So why is the Israeli Ambassador being called in? Do you accept these reports that Mossad's involved?
PM: It is important to establish the facts, at least as they will put them to us, and that is why we are going through that process. You will understand there is a limit to what I can say in terms of intelligence matters, and I'm constrained by that. But I think it's right to tell the Australian public that we are meeting with the Israeli Ambassador, and in Israeli with the Israeli Government simultaneously, to hear their version of these events.
MITCHELL: Is it fair to say that if Mossad is involved, then the Israeli Government would take responsibility for the use of the Australian passports?
PM: Let's get all of our facts established first, Neil. I don't wish to rush to conclusions. Establish the facts first, but let me say loud and clear, we do not see this as a minor matter. We do not see this as a trifling matter. And I say again, any State, any State that has been complicit in any such use or abuse of the Australian passport system, let alone for the conduct of an assassination, is treating Australia with contempt, and there will therefore be action by the Australian Government in response.
MITCHELL: What's open to the Australian Government if you identify any State as having done this?
PM: Well, let's take this one step at a time. But it is of fundamental importance that we simply do not sweep such matters under the carpet. You cannot do that. On specific measures which would arise, let's cross that bridge when we get to it. I'm waiting first for the report from the Foreign Minister from his meeting with the Israeli Ambassador here in Canberra later this morning. And, based on that, the Foreign Minister will be making a fuller statement here in Parliament House around the middle of the morning.
MITCHELL: Okay, well- how do you establish the facts though? I mean presumably you call in the Israeli Ambassador and say "was it Mossad", he's not going to answer you.
PM: There are intelligence channels which I cannot go into on your program, or any program for that matter, that's one element. The second element of course is diplomatic contact between Governments. And the third is, frankly, physical evidence, and that is what we are working through on all three fronts as we speak. That's why we've been in close contact with the authorities in Dubai. Australia has good relations with Dubai. We have good relations with the United Arab Emirates. We have good relations with their security authorities.
Let us always bear in mind that the UAE has always had a moderate attitude when it comes to the broader politics of the Middle East, and the Israel-Palestine dispute. We have therefore developed a very close and productive security relationship and intelligence relationship with the authorities in Dubai. We're using that as we speak. The Dubai authorities, I doubt would have raised this with us if they saw it as a trifling matter themselves, or simply a possibility. We therefore take this most seriously.
MITCHELL: Okay, is it going too far to say the misuse of Australian passports potentially endangers any person travelling on an Australian passport?
PM: Let's establish the facts. There is no point-
MITCHELL: Well something's happened with Australian passports here.
PM: Absolutely. That's why we take it seriously. That's why we've had, frankly, most of the security and intelligence community in Canberra up a lot of the night going through the facts as we know them on this, because this is not just a matter of national security interest, it is a matter of deep interest to all members of the Australian travelling public. And as I said, that affects millions of people. Therefore, as soon as we've established the facts and what it means from the passport system, which as you know, recent Governments have sought to improve as each new technology has become available, and people who travel would know how their passports would look today as opposed to how they looked ten years ago and ten years before that, you've got to make sure that there are lessons to be learned from this and that they are applied.
But the key thing is to establish the facts first, and that is what we are determined to do. I say all these remarks also, Neil, as a person who has been a life-long supporter of the State of Israel. I do not say this with any anti-Israeli bias whatsoever. But we do not take lightly the action by any State, any State, in relation to the use or forgery of Australian passports- however, let us establish the facts first.
MITCHELL: Okay, we're talking about here, two of the people named with the passports as being 18 and 19, and one 35. They're very young. Just to repeat, you're confident that they are all safe.
PM: Based on the advice from the Foreign Minister last night, contact has been established. As to precise whereabouts, and as to their precise wellbeing, I prefer to defer that to the statement made later this morning by the Foreign Minister. I do not wish to mislead your listeners on any element of this. I'd much rather we are certain in each case. We're also legitimately concerned about the wellbeing of each individual.
MITCHELL: Sorry, I think I've got their ages wrong there, I think they're 28 and 29, and 35. We will take a break Prime Minister if that's okay, and come back with some other matters.
PM: Sure.
[AD BREAK]
MITCHELL: Prime Minister, there are already estimates that the debacle over insulation is costing $100 million. What will the total amount be?
PM: We'll work our way through the implementation of the inspections, the rectification work which is necessary. Also, the support that's necessary for firms and for workers. We accept the responsibility for the problems which have arisen in the implementation of this. And, of course, by that I mean the problems which have arisen because of the discontinuation of the scheme for workers and firms as well.
MITCHELL: So it is $100 million at least, already?
PM: We're working our way through it. I mean, as far as the assistance to workers is concerned, you're probably aware that I announced a package yesterday-
MITCHELL: $41 million.
PM: $41 million. We'll have something further to say later today Neil, when it comes to assistance for firms. You see, I spoke to a number of workers and insulation firms yesterday here in Canberra. These strike me as good honest folk who have been caught up and are having to pay the consequences of the work of some shonky operators. So we've got to look after the good people out there and deal with the shonks, and make sure that workers are protected on the way through.
MITCHELL: And, can I say, some shonky administration by your Government?
PM: Well, can I say, I've said a couple of days ago Neil that as the Prime Minister of the country, I accept full responsibility for things that go right, and things that go wrong. There have been problems with the implementation of this. I accept that.
MITCHELL: Problems? We've got four people dead. We've got old ladies ringing in tears now, because they're frightened. We've got houses burning down. This is- Prime Minister, this is the biggest disaster to reach into people's homes from Government in a long time.
PM: Neil, I don't back away from what's happened on the ground. I think what people expect me to do is to take charge of fixing up the problems which have arisen.
MITCHELL: Okay, will you-
PM: Let's just say when it comes to the workers themselves- you know, there are about 6000 workers who are directly affected by the Government's decision to cancel this program. What do we have to do? Balance the advice coming into the Government on questions of safety, because of some small number of shonks out there on the one hand and on the other hand, the implication for honest workers. So what we're trying to do is help those workers on the way through, and help honest firms on the way through deal with any of the remaining safety concerns, but I'm the first one to admit Neil that we've got some real problems here we need to deal with.
MITCHELL: Will you pay compensation to the people whose houses have burnt or families have died?
PM: On the question of where you've had tragic loss of life- and there have been four reported deaths from this- I think it is really important that we establish the facts through the proper Coronial inquiries, the Police inquiries, and the inquiries by the relevant WorkCover, work safety authorities as well. There's about four, five or six of those I understand underway at present.
Secondly, when it comes to those who have problems in their roofs- and let's establish the numbers for that over time, through the audits which are underway- then what we have said is that inspections will occur, any rectification as a result of faulty implementation of course will be done. That is the right thing to do. I'm the first one to say to you Neil that there have been real problems here. I understand that. My job's to get in there and fix it up, and I don't walk away from that. It's going to take some time. I just don't walk away from it.
MITCHELL: Okay, so what do you say to people like this? This is Joan who called me, and I had several calls like this during the week.
CALLER: Mr Mitchell, I had my house insulated.
MITCHELL: Yeah.
CALLER: I'm shaking at the moment. And-
MITCHELL: That's okay.
CALLER: Three young boys came, they looked like they were still at school, and they took about 25-40 minutes to put it in. My daughter had hers done, and she said it took three hours to put it in. Now, I am really scared. I live by myself and I've got nobody to help me.
MITCHELL: What will the Government do for people like Joan?
PM: Firs thing I'd say to you and your program, Joan is- through your program to Joan, Neil- is let's get her number, and get it straight on to the insulation inspectors-
MITCHELL: She's done that. She's rung them. And they said, 'no no, nothing we can do, you've got to pay for it'. Is that fair?
PM: Well, let's establish the facts but
MITCHELL: Well that's the fact.
PM: Hang on-
MITCHELL: We've had an electrician go an do it for her. There's no point in the Government trying to fix it now. The point is, your system failed. There are a million houses around the country at this stage with people sitting there wondering if it's safe. A million, 1.1 million. What are you going to do about them?
PM: Well, you asked me a question about Joan. What I want to do from your program is to get her number. She's right to be upset and concerned. What I want to do is to make sure that she is not worse off in any way as a result of this program.
MITCHELL: We did it for nothing. We got an electrician- in fact, it was Dean Mighell- went and had a look in her roof and did it for nothing. Several electricians have come forward and done it for nothing. But we can't do every one of the 1.1 million houses.
PM: Of course you can't.
MITCHELL: When will you check all of them?
PM: Of course you can't, and the responsibility of Government and me as the Prime Minister is to step in and fix up problems which are of our making.
MITCHELL: Will you check every one of them?
PM: What we have said right now is that we will inspect all homes that are necessary to be inspected-
MITCHELL: How do you know which is necessary? People are sitting there, frightened to turn their lights on.
PM: Well let's go to the way in which we would hope to do it. Firstly, concerns with foil insulation. All of those homes will be inspected right across the country. Secondly, in terms of non-foil insulation. What we're now trying to do is to unfold and audit across the country of about 15% of insulations and concentrating on those areas where we have increasing evidence about the small number of dodgy firms which have not done the right thing. Remember, we should not blame the entire industry or firms, therefore, once we've done that-
MITCHELL: But Joan and people like here don't know whether they've had a dodgy job or not, so they are frightened. Now, you've put the people into their ceilings and created this climate of fear.
PM: The second thing that we've got to do, Neil, is this. When people like Joan contact us, we have a responsibility to get an inspector out there, properly accredited, straight away, to sort out what the problem is in her ceiling. And I accept what you have done in that case, and I thank you and-
MITCHELL: Well it's not happening Prime Minister, and there could be more than a million houses wanting it.
PM: Well you know something-
MITCHELL: Will you inspect the million houses if necessary?
PM: We will inspect all houses as are necessary. And we will continue to do that until the job is done.
MITCHELL: How long will that take?
PM: We will take as long as is necessary to get it done. We will concentrate first on the areas where you've got a pattern emerging of some shonky operators.
When I spoke to these folk, including Melbourne firms yesterday here in Canberra, they strike me as decent, well-trained folk, and I asked them specifically, had they had any complaints about their work? And the answer in all cases was barely none.
So our job in terms of doing the risk right across the country is with people like Joan, who - I understand her fear, I understand her concern- is that we take these one by one and we deal with each problem, and I don't care how long it takes, but we will do it both with the individual households, the individual companies, and the individual workers. That's our responsibility, I intend to discharge it.
MITCHELL: Okay, people have been told that they have to pay for their own electricians. Will they have to do that, or will you pay for it?
PM: When a person rings up to get a check done, if their installer has been re-registered, that is, there's no problems with their caseload or their work, then in the first instance, they are required to do it, that's the installer.
Secondly, if a person then conducts- if the household concerned doesn't like that, or is unsatisfied with that, we then will provide our own inspection. That's the two-stage process we've put in. But we will keep at this Neil until the problem is fixed, because we've got a responsibility to do so. Remember-
MITCHELL: It could be years, Prime Minister.
PM: Well, we'll deal with this in all of its three parts.
The 6000 workers who were employed, whose jobs are now at risk, that's the first thing.
The second is the firms themselves, the businesses themselves, the overwhelming majority of whom are decent people doing the right thing. And the overwhelming majority of installations, according to the data we have, are fine.
And thirdly, with the concerns of households.
With insulation workers, can I just say this Neil? We have backed insulation workers during the global recession. We intend to back them now. This is an important group of workers. We're out there supporting hundreds of thousands of jobs through the national economic stimulus strategy. 6000 jobs are now at risk- we're going to back them, we're going to do the right thing by householders, we're going to do the right thing by the firms. I'm the first, however, to say, that we've got a lot of things wrong, and I intend to fix them up.
MITCHELL: Quick call, Sean, go ahead Sean.
CALLER: Good morning Neil, Mr Rudd.
PM: G'day Sean.
CALLER: I'm a full electrical contractor in the South-eastern suburbs of Victoria. We had our first inspection of foil insulation last night at 4.30. And the foil came back as 244 volts on the insulation. Now-
MITCHELL: So the foil was live?
CALLER: The foil was live. So that's our first inspection, and it came back completely live. Now, my question is if there is a risk that the insulation is live, all tradesmen that have to get into the roof, why aren't they notified if the inspection isn't going to happen for a week, what happens if someone climbs into the roof in that week prior to the inspection.
MITCHELL: Good point. Prime Minister-
PM: For installer inquiries- and that goes to inspection as well- can I say to you Neil, the safety of workers doing this is of number one priority. Can I get you to ring this number? 1800 029 686.
Secondly, if you do not get a satisfactory answer on that, then can you please contact my office on 6277 7111 in Canberra, ask for my office and we will deal with the specifics that you have raised.
MITCHELL: Hold on Sean, we'll get your number off air and repeat that to you.
Prime Minister, Peter Garrett said that he hadn't read the consultant's- well, sorry, he hadn't read the consultant's report on the detail of these warnings in its totality. Now what the hell does that mean? Does that mean he got an executive summary? He hadn't read it in its totality. Now that is playing politics over dead bodies.
PM: On the risk assessment for the scheme, Neil, the- Minter Ellison did one in April of last year. What Minister Garrett did was get himself briefed on risk assessments coming out of that report, and a whole bunch of other meetings with the industry and the safety regulators and the rest, which is why, in response to that, he put in place three things which weren't there before. Firstly, the first national skills requirement for installation contractors in the industry, period.
Secondly, that registered training organisations had to put in place the first accredited training course for installers.
And thirdly, for the first time, a Commonwealth program brought in new occupational health and safety standards.
MITCHELL: Some of this kicked in on February, about two weeks ago.
Prime Minister, we've got something here that could cost hundreds of millions of dollars in public money, four people have died, house fires have increased, thousands of jobs lost, people are living in fear because a Minister didn't listen to warnings.
What does a Minister have to do in your Government to be sacked?
PM: I said yesterday, and probably the day before Neil, when it comes to the overall programs of the Government, including this one, I'm the bloke who's responsible. I'm the Prime Minister. I take the responsibility.
MITCHELL: That doesn't absolve him, though.
PM: Can I just say, in terms of the risk assessments which his Department received, and his actions in response to that to regulate what was an industry which had very little regulation before, the actions taken by him were consistent with the Department's advice to him.
But you know something, that doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to fix up the problems and there are problems out there, I don't walk away from it. People are entitled to be angry .Our job is to roll up our sleeves and get it done.
MITCHELL: The Prime Minister, in Canberra.