CHRIS KENNY:
The Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull - thanks for joining us on Viewpoint again.
PRIME MINISTER:
Great to be with you, Chris.
CHRIS KENNY:
Look, I want to start off on this deal regarding Nauru. It is a break through. I think most Australians are very pleased to see this implemented. It’s been negotiated and agreed, for some time we here and immigration has been a very contentious issue in the American election. Did Barrack Obama ask you to just sit tight on this, until after the election?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, the discussions with the US Government began with a discussion I had with President Obama in January. There was a long lead up to it in terms of the negotiations and discussions. We needed to put in place all of the measures, on water measures, the maritime defences to ensure that we were able to respond in the event that the people smugglers tried to use this as a marketing opportunity. In fact, I acquired, I took steps to acquire additional maritime assets not long after becoming Prime Minister late last year so it was always clear to me that if we were to enter a deal of this kind we would need to be in a position to respond any additional activity from the people smugglers.
CHRIS KENNY:
Well that is the problem with a deal like this one with a first world country – the problem is that it may give those people smugglers a marketing opportunity. Get to Australia and the worst that happens is you end up in America. They’ll be using that advertising.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they won’t. I mean, they will try that but –
CHRIS KENNY:
Well, you must be expecting that given that you have deployed all those extra assets?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, well we do. We take our border protection extremely seriously. Very, very seriously indeed and we would rather over compensate in terms of our response capacity than under do it. So the message however to the people smugglers is, and their would-be passengers is very clear – this deal, this arrangement is one off. It applies only potentially to those on Nauru and Manus today. Those people who have been to those RPC’s as of today. It does not apply and will not apply to anyone who seeks to come now or subsequently. So this is not available to somebody who is being marketed to by a people smuggler at the moment.
CHRIS KENNY:
Now it would absurd, wouldn’t it, if a refugee who has been processed in Nauru over the past three years can’t get to Australia, gets a visa, permanent residency in the United States and then can come back to Australia on holidays? The likelihood of that might be small although some people have family connections here or other reasons they might want to come to Australia. Is that why you really need this lifetime ban?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we need to send a very clear, very very clear unequivocal message to the people smugglers. If you seek to come to Australia by boat with a people smuggler, you will never settle in Australia, you won’t be able to come to Australia. Now we are working hard to find resettlement options for those people that Kevin Rudd put on Manus and Nauru. You’ve got to remember this is Labor’s creation. These people are there because the Labor Party failed to keep our borders secure. The Labor Party failed to protect the integrity of our nation and our defences and they’re there because Kevin Rudd put them there and what we are doing, my Government is giving them a way to leave. But you know, Chris, this argument that what happens if somebody becomes an American citizen and then 30 years later they want to come to Australia – well the Minister has a discretion. If there is some hypothetical case, the Minister has the discretion as the Minister has in pretty much every section of the Migration Act. And so that is something that can be dealt with on its merits.
CHRIS KENNY:
Won’t they, even without legislation though – anyone, any refugee resettled in America would have to apply for a visa to come to Australia and they would be identified for us and we could make clear that they are not welcome back in Australia?
PRIME MINISTER:
We want to send the very clearest message. I mean we are dealing in many respects in a propaganda war with the people smugglers. You know, when John Howard was Prime Minister he stopped the boats. He set a very clear message. But that was in an era before smart phones, before social media. These criminals are very adept marketers and so you’ve got to send a crystal clear message – if you seek to come to Australia by boat with a people smuggler, you will not succeed. And you won’t and we want to be absolutely crystal clear about that. And Bill Shorten should join us in that regard. He says, you know, we are on a unity ticket, there is not a cigarette paper between us and so forth. Well, he’s not going to be judged by his words – he’s got to be judged by his deeds. There is an opportunity for him to join with me and send that very crystal clear message to the people smugglers – you’re out of business.
CHRIS KENNY:
Now it is my understanding that there is no number set on the number of refugees from Nauru and Manus that could be resettled in the United States – it is a matter of whatever the Americans decide to take in their normal, which is very generous humanitarian intake. So there is the potential there to actually resettle virtually everyone that can be resettled. What does America get in exchange from Australia?
PRIME MINISTER:
It’s got to be seen in the context, Chris, of a very long history of cooperation in which our two nations have worked together to pursue our mutual and our respective humanitarian and indeed national security objectives. So you would have seen these –
CHRIS KENNY:
There is no direct quid pro quo.
PRIME MINISTER:
You would have seen the remarks I made at the United Nations, a few months ago. We have a very close relationship with the Americans. It is very, it is based on very deep trust and extensive cooperation.
CHRIS KENNY:
Well speaking about that very close relationship, both the security relationship, the people to people relationship and of course a trade relationship – President Trump, January 20th, he’ll be inaugurated – what worries you most about his policy agenda? Is it his free trade, is it his opposition to free trade and his potential damage to global trade deals or is it his demand that security allies should be lifting their work rate?
PRIME MINISTER:
We are spending two per cent of GDP on defence. When I spoke to Mr Trump just a few days ago, we talked about his plans to expand the United States Navy and he was very impressed with our naval shipbuilding plan which as you know includes 54 new vessels including 12 new regionally superior submarines. So there is no doubt without wanting to comment on his policies, or let alone what other American allies are doing, there is no doubt that Australia is more than pulling its weight and making very big commitments for our mutual security.
CHRIS KENNY:
But on trade he is threatening a trade war effectively with China. You have our greatest trading partners in a trade war. He is essentially saying to China revalue your currency or I’ll put up a tariff rule wall. That would be disastrous for Australia. Does that not worry you greatly?
PRIME MINISTER:
In my job there is plenty to get worried about.
[Laughter]
I am confident that the commercial relationships, economic relationships will be managed in the national interest and it is clearly not in America’s national interest to have some sort of economic cataclysm as many have forecast. I think it is important to remember, as I think it was Mario Cuomo who said, wasn’t it, the American politician, that we campaign in poetry and we govern in prose – so that is why I have been very careful not to make comments about Donald Trump, or run a commentary on his policies because we’ll see. But the one thing that he knows and that Americans know, but I know Mr Trump knows this very well, is that we are a very good friend, a very strong ally and we are always very honest and frank with each other. And he values that.
CHRIS KENNY:
A couple more questions on that – one is, did you mention the refugee deal to Donald Trump and if not are you worried that he’ll be antagonistic towards it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, you only deal with one administration at a time. So you know, the Government of the United States is headed by Barrack Obama until 20th of January and so we deal with the United State Government. The United States Government meets its commitments from one administration to another.
CHRIS KENNY:
So you didn’t give him a heads up about it? He would have been reading about it in the media over the past 24-hours.
PRIME MINISTER:
Again, I deal with one administration at a time.
CHRIS KENNY:
Also you mention campaigning in poetry, governing in prose – I would’ve thought that Donald Trump really campaigned in graffiti and now he’s moving to prose. Bill Shorten has been doubling down –
PRIME MINISTER:
By the way you have to govern in prose. [Laughter]
CHRIS KENNY:
Yes – you end up in the same place. Bill Shorten has been doubling down on his criticism of Donald Trump’s invective, if you like. You might have a comment to make about that but when you do, what about your own position? You’ve been very outspoken when it comes to respect for women, that men, all of us, have an obligation to use respectful language and because the implications of that flow right through society. Surely that message must also apply to Donald Trump?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it applies to all of us. So when the Access Hollywood video came out and I was with Michaelia Cash, my Minister for Women and we were asked about our reaction to it. We both said that the remarks were loathsome. Now Mr Trump apologised for them and disowned them. He said that wasn’t his real character and he apologised for them. But, unlike like Mr Shorten, what I was able to do was show the self-discipline and self-control not to engage in personal and denigratory attacks on Mr Trump. My view is that Mr Trump, the assessment of Mr Trump, his policies, his character is a matter for the American people. Mr Shorten said that Donald Trump was unfit to be the leader of the free world. Well Mr Shorten doesn’t have a vote in that any more than I do. The United States people decided that he was fit to be the leader of the United States and thus approval.
CHRIS KENNY:
On the other hand, is one of the lessons of Donald Trump’s triumph the fact that people want to see direct forthright language, plain talking from politicians on issues such as immigration, terrorism, even trade?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think they do. It is very important to be clear and frank and honest in what you say and that is what I always seek to do.
CHRIS KENNY:
You think that perhaps when it comes to issues like immigration and terrorism in particular that there is a sense in the Australian community that the government is not as forthright as it should be? That’s why perhaps we’ve seen the rise of One Nation and other fringe parties on the right. And I supposed when it comes to trade it has been very much Nick Xenophon’s message isn’t it to sort of, protectionists –
PRIME MINISTER:
Let’s talk about trade. In America you’ve seen big manufacturing areas lose their manufacturing businesses and that has been partly due to international competition but in large part also due to changes in technology, I mean most of the jobs through manufacturing have been lost because of technology. Now, I can understand somebody making a case in Pennsylvania for example in the steel industry that America needs more protection against imports of steel. I can understand that case being made. Let’s leave the merits to one side. However if you look at Australia, in our case, it is unquestionably in our interests to have stronger and more open trade around the world. Take Queensland for example – the sugar industry. We export 80 per cent of the sugar we produce. So what would protection, how would protectionism help sugar? How would protectionism help the coal sector? Most of the coal we produce we export.
CHRIS KENNY:
Indeed. These are some of the arguments people were saying Hillary Clinton should have made more forcefully though over the past couple of years.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Australia is different to America too.
CHRIS KENNY:
Sure.
PRIME MINISTER:
I mean you’ve got to remember, this is very important. It is up to Donald Trump to pursue America’s national interest. It is my job to pursue Australia’s. So what I have to do, my job is to determine with the Government what is in our national interest, the policies that benefit Australian jobs and Australian businesses and Australia’s prospects and then I have to explain then to the Australian people and then fight for them internationally.
CHRIS KENNY:
We are tight for time – I know you’re tight for time but two quick questions. I am certain you’ll be able to deal with them very quickly before you go. One is Gillian Triggs – there is lots of discussion to be had about various issues and various controversies regarding Gillian Triggs – but shouldn’t she do the right thing by the Australian Human Rights Commission and get out of the way so that it can protect its own integrity?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well those decisions are a matter for her. It is an independent statutory office holder. Her term expires in the middle of next year.
CHRIS KENNY:
And finally the un-invitation you’ve received to the gay and lesbian Mardi Gras. [Laughter] Is that a personal and partisan insult?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you know I’ve had so many invitations from friends to go to their Mardi Gras parties that if Lucy and I do decide to go to the Mardi Gras next year, we’ll have no shortage of opportunities and cheerful company to enjoy it with.
CHRIS KENNY:
Very good. [Laughter] Thanks very much for your time Malcolm Turnbull.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thanks Chris.
[ENDS]