LEIGH SALES:
Prime Minister, thank you for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Great to be with you Leigh.
LEIGH SALES:
Let’s start with national security, you said earlier this week that Islamic State was weak, if that’s true then why is the might of the US and its allies so far unable to defeat it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I said it was weak relative to other powers, it is surrounded by enemies, it is under siege from the air but of course it is able to occupy territory, the territory that it has, although its boundaries are being pushed back both on the Iraqi side and on the Syrian side. And of course it is able to direct or at least sponsor acts of terrorism abroad.
LEIGH SALES:
So weak is an understatement isn’t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
No. I was talking about relative strength, it is weak relative to the strength of the United States for example, or Australia.
LEIGH SALES:
But then you say that its boundaries are being pushed back and that it’s under siege, Michael Keenan said today that Australia’s now facing the most significant ongoing threat from terrorism that we’ve seen in our nation’s history.
PRIME MINISTER:
That is true, there is, as a nation we’ve had limited experience from terrorism domestically, of course Australians have been victims of terrorist attacks overseas, most notably and tragically in Bali, as we all recall with great sadness. But what we’ve seen in very recent times is an increase in terrorist incidents in Australia and they have been, as I said, sponsored by, or the perpetrators have claimed a connection with, ISIL.
LEIGH SALES:
Billions of dollars have been spent since 9-11, numerous civil liberties have been curtailed, Australians have been told the whole way along that it was to make them safer and to defeat terrorism around the world and yet here we are in 2015, told today that we’re less safe than we’ve ever been. Don’t Australians have a right to feel a bit let down by the policy decisions that have been made since 9-11?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Leigh I think we have to be, we have to be very calm and cool and clear eyed about this. We cannot eliminate entirely the risk of terrorism, or a terrorist incident, any more than we can eliminate entirely the risk of any other crime. So the challenge for the security agencies is to be able to thwart, interrupt, prevent terrorist incidents, to maintain highly effective intelligence operations so that they can, they’re forewarned and of course in the event of a terrorist attack occurring or a terrorist incident occurring, we need to be able to respond quickly and decisively.
LEIGH SALES:
Yet it seems that since 9-11 things have trended in the wrong direction because now we’re told we’re less safe than ever.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Leigh I’m not sure that’s a fair comment, there has been, there have been more terrorist incidents in Australia in recent times, that is true, but we haven’t – at least to date – had a mass casualty incident of the scale of Paris or the tragic events in Paris, or indeed of 9-11 on Australian soil.
LEIGH SALES:
In your national security statement earlier this week you said that in terms of trying to defeat IS in Syria this is not the time for machismo, at whom or what was that remark directed?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I was really referring to the point that we have to be, look if you go back a bit earlier in the speech perhaps this is the key to the point I was making. I said that we should grieve and we should be angry but we should not let grief or anger cloud our judgement. So this is not a time for gestures or bravado or machismo, however you want to describe it. This is a time for a very cool and calculating and rational response to the problem and setting out the response that we will have, acting on the advice, as we are, of our security agencies, of the Chief of the Defence Force, that’s what is a calm and measured, emphatic response as opposed to one that is informed by the very legitimate grief and anger. We have to be very cool headed and clear eyed.
LEIGH SALES:
Is an example of machismo the calls for there to be boots on the ground for example?
PRIME MINISTER:
I wouldn’t describe, it depends what you mean when people say boots on the ground. Whose boots and on which ground? I mean this is the thing. There have been people in the media, you know, some commentators, suggesting that Australia should take unilateral action in the Middle East. Now the simple reality is this; we have, for example, 90 special forces soldiers, servicemen and women in Iraq, they have the permission of our government to accompany Iraqi counter terrorism forces outside their base up to the headquarters level. But the Iraqi government does not want to have western soldiers out in the field, so that is why they are staying in their base. So if people say we should have Australian military boots on the ground in Iraq they overlook the fact that Iraq is a sovereign state and it determines what western or other forces, foreign forces, are active within its borders.
LEIGH SALES:
Let’s turn to the economy, the Opposition Leader Bill Shorten said this week that you’ve not been subjected yet to any real economic test and that the real test will come with the next budget when you outline what you intend to do, he’s right about that isn’t he?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the budget is an annual test I suppose but we will release within the next two weeks an innovation statement that will set out a very large number of substantial measures to drive the innovation that will ensure that Australians, their children and grandchildren, will have great jobs, better jobs in the future that will drive our economy. I don’t think anybody has any doubt that if we are to remain the high wage, generous social welfare net country, first world country that we want to be then we need to be more innovative, more competitive, more productive and the innovation statement will be a good example of the measures the government is undertaking to achieve that.
LEIGH SALES:
We know you’re also thinking about what you might like to do on tax reform, you came into the job promising to not play the usual game of rule in, rule out. Let me ask if you are prepared to do away with another old game which is the promise that when economic change comes nobody will be worse off.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think, Leigh…
LEIGH SALES:
Somebody’s always worse off aren’t they?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it may, Leigh I think the way you’ve got to look at any economic reform is whether it is equitable right across the community. The object, and of course many, many…everyone is situated somewhat differently. You know someone asked me what is fair, there are libraries filled with books about what is fairness. What is fair is basically a set of measures that are consistent with our commitment to a more competitive, productive, innovative society, and are also consistent with Australia’s strong egalitarian, fair go culture. And if Australians…
LEIGH SALES:
And sometimes to make things fair though some people have to miss out so other people can pick up.
PRIME MINISTER:
I think if you, for example, if you had changes that resulted in perhaps people on higher incomes bearing a higher burden, some people – I’m not saying this is our policy, but for example, many people have advocated that there should be some changes to superannuation so that it is, if you like, the tax concession is less generous to people on very high incomes, or high incomes. I suppose that would be seen by many people as fair, but on the other hand I suppose if you are one of the people who is getting less of a concession, you might or might not feel it was fair or unfair. Ultimately the proof of this pudding will be, of this whole exercise, will be in the eating, in the outcome. And the question is whether the whole outcome is seen to be equitable and that is our absolute objective. It will be a fair set of reforms because Leigh if it’s not fair…
LEIGH SALES:
Okay…
PRIME MINISTER:
If I could just finish, if you don’t mind. If it’s not fair, it won’t get the public support that it needs to be successful. So fairness is absolutely critical.
LEIGH SALES:
Alright, after Question Time you head overseas and you will attend the climate change talks in Paris next week. Given the tense relationships at the moment between world powers, you know the US and China over the South China Sea, the US and Russia over just about everything, Europe, all the nations within Europe over the refugees and the economy, isn’t the reality that against that back drop, it’s going to be very hard to get global agreement on something as contentious as climate change policy?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think there’s a – I have just been to the G20 and also to APEC and the East Asia Summit, but at the G20 where you had the 20 largest economies, naturally climate change was a big issue and I would say there was a – the views around the table were as close to unanimous as you could imagine. Everyone is committed to achieving a good outcome in Paris. Everyone is…
LEIGH SALES:
So you’re optimistic about the prospect of an agreement next week?
PRIME MINISTER:
I am optimistic and I notice that the French President who is the host, and the French Government, to their credit, have put enormous effort into seeking to ensure Paris is a success. The French President is very optimistic and you know, you mention America and China and the South China Sea, yes there are issues between the United States and China over atoll building and island building in the South China Sea, as there is, in fact in some senses, greater issues, between China and the various countries that are – Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia and so forth that are the neighbouring countries of the South China Sea. But that’s one issue, the overall, all of those countries have much more in common, their agendas are much more united that those single points, no matter how important of difference. It’s a mistake, if I may say so, to focus solely on the points of difference. Obviously it’s, in a sense it’s more interesting, it’s more newsworthy but it fails to capture the remarkable degree of unanimity and common purpose in the global community.
LEIGH SALES:
Alright let’s whip through a couple of other quick things before we run out of time. Two of your Senators, Eric Abetz and Cory Bernardi crossed the floor today to vote against a bill on student services fees, do you have full control of the right wing of your party?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, as you know, there is a long tradition in the Liberal Party of people, backbenchers of course, being able to cross the floor and that has happened, that’s always happened. When I was a backbencher I crossed the floor on one memorable occasion. Philip Ruddock, the very distinguished elder statesmen of our party has crossed the floor on more than one occasion. So you know in the Labor Party, if you cross the floor, they chuck you out of the Labor Party. In our party that’s not the case, so we are a party of freedom.
LEIGH SALES:
Is Tony Abbott leading an insurgency against you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course not, of course not.
LEIGH SALES:
Well how do you intend to manage the detractors within your party? We’ve had a number of people in recent weeks publicly speak out against positions that you have taken.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I haven’t noticed that.
LEIGH SALES:
Well Kevin Andrews for example…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I wouldn’t interpret those remarks in that way at all, people are entitled…look, going back to the security situation in Syria, people are entitled to express the view that there should be a large western military force, boots on the ground. They are entitled to express that view. But that’s an opinion. Now the fact is, it is not for us, for Australians to commit the armed forces of the United States to combat. The position of the American President is very clear, he does not believe that a large western force intervening into that theatre would be productive. That is also the view, I might say, of every other leader with whom I discussed the Syrian situation at the G20. So that is…
LEIGH SALES:
So if you think that it’s simply a legitimate expression of differing points of view, you don’t concede that you have an element of discontent within your own ranks that you need to manage?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Leigh, leadership, if you are a leader of a political party you are leading a team of talented individuals. Anyone who gets into this place, whether they are a member of the House or a senator, is a remarkable individual. Not many people over the whole history of our Commonwealth, have been elected to parliament. So they are all remarkable individuals and they’ve all got an enormous amount to contribute and my job as leader is to draw on all of that ability and I seek to do so.
LEIGH SALES:
And have you spoken to Tony Abbott beyond an exchange of text messages to which one of you referred a few weeks back?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes I have had a good chat with Tony, yes. Look, Tony and I obviously have had some differences at different times, but we have known each other for a very long time and we have been, and always will be, able to have a very cordial discussion.
LEIGH SALES:
The realty is also that you are not a new government. You are an extension and a continuation of the Abbott government. When voters come to weigh up their vote at the next election do they need to be making a judgement on the overall performance of the Abbott-Turnbull government as opposed to just your talk of the future?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I’m sure that voters will make their own decision based on a number of factors, and I think they will assess the Government’s record, they’ll assess the Government’s promises, the Government’s vision, they’ll assess the capability and competence of the Government to govern. You know, one of the…
LEIGH SALES:
Is it tricky for you to campaign on that record given you did feel the need to replace Tony Abbott?
PRIME MINISTER:
I’m very comfortable in my role, and I am looking forward to an election next year when we’ll present our vision and our capacity to deliver a strong, innovative economy. An economy with great jobs, and a generous social welfare safety net. An Australia that is as enterprising and productive as it is fair. I am very confident of presenting that vision and that capability to the Australian people against Labor’s alternative.
LEIGH SALES:
Prime Minister thank you very for making time to speak to us today.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you very much Leigh.