7 September 1999
E&OE……………………………………………………………………………………
SUBJECTS: East Timor
O’BRIEN:
John Howard, do you have any cause to believe that Indonesia’s declaration of martial law and its latest injection of troops will make any difference to the bloodbath in East Timor?
PRIME MINISTER:
On the performance of the past few days no not a lot. I live in hope. Our aim now is to build the maximum pressure on Indonesia to get its own house in order or in default of that allow in an international peacekeeping force to do the job that should be done by the Indonesian security people. And Australia would play a major, indeed a leading role, in that peacekeeping force.
O’BRIEN:
You would have seen reports from the Washington Post that that force would be expected to be a strength of about 5,000 to 7,000 troops. Is that correct?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes.
O’BRIEN:
And Australia would have how many of those?
PRIME MINISTER:
We have offered 2,000 to the Secretary-General of the United Nations. I told Kofi Anan that yesterday and we could deploy those within 48 to 72 hours. We are in a state of very advanced preparations for such a deployment.
O’BRIEN:
Have you seen any sign, in your conversations and those of others in the Australian Government with the Indonesians, have you seen any sign at all, any positive sign, that they are about to embrace the idea of that international force coming in?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I have had some indications but the problem is that over the past few days expectations in other areas have been dashed and I remain, I have to say and I regret to say it but I do nonetheless say it, sceptical. I have to react to results and our single irrevocable purpose now must be to do everything we can internationally to build maximum pressure on Indonesia to see that the right thing is done by the Indonesian security forces. And in default of that obtain from the Indonesians an acquiescence in the injection of international peacekeeping forces.
O’BRIEN:
What weight, what real influence do you think Australia really has behind anything in its approaches and its appeals to Indonesia when you can’t even get General Wiranto to come to the phone?
PRIME MINISTER:
We have more influence than most but you are facing a very volatile political situation in Indonesia. You have a confluence of events. You have the independence vote at the time when the Government of Indonesia could be in transition when Indonesia has just moved to democracy. It’s a nation of 211 million people. Timor has fewer than a million people. We have to keep these things in perspective. There are other troubled spots in Indonesia which give as much if not more pain to the Indonesian Government than does East Timor. So you have got to look at that broad picture. We have more influence than most but in the end domestic political factors in Indonesia will govern the behaviour of the Indonesian Government more than the pressure of an individual country but combined international pressure may in the end, and I hope it does, bring about the right response.
O’BRIEN:
Now, that parallel that you just drew between Indonesia’s 211 million people against a mere one million in East Timor, as I understand it, that’s what President Habibie put to you on Friday.
PRIME MINISTER:
President Habibie frequently puts that to me not just on Friday.
O’BRIEN:
But how do you react when you hear that? Do you really think that is excuse?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don’t for a moment regard it as an excuse. I think what has happened in East Timor is appalling and it is unacceptable to the international community. But I am trying to understand while not sympathising with the influences on the Indonesian minds. I mean, we have to focus on an outcome and the outcome is what…is to get the Indonesian Government to get its own house in order regarding East Timor. And if it can’t or won’t do that then to allow in an international force at will. And we will play a role and we are keen to play a role in that, a leading role. We would like, of course, others there as well and we naturally want it done under the auspices of the United Nations.
O’BRIEN:
Do you agree with Megawati Soekarnoputri who may well be the next President of Indonesia that President Habibie has become a lame duck President.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I am not going to get involved in that, sort of, crossfire. Every comment I make now, Kerry, is directed towards getting the outcome I know all Australians want and that is an end to the bloodshed in Timor either through the Indonesians doing the right thing or them letting in somebody who will do the right thing.
O’BRIEN:
But isn’t it absolutely relevant to this country and all the other countries trying to resolve the problem in East Timor that you have very clearly a power vacuum in Jakarta as well as that dangerous vacuum in East Timor itself between the vote that was taken last Monday and the fact that we are all waiting and most particularly the people of East Timor have to wait until November for that vote to be ratified and the people’s assembly in Jakarta.
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, well, I understand their anxiety about that but that is the agreed constitutional framework. But I am worried about what’s going to happen in the next 24/48 hours not the next two months. And the next thing is to try and do something about the situation on the ground in East Timor now not in two months time. Now, that must be done either by Indonesia or if Indonesia is unwilling or unable it must be done by an international force there with the consent of the Indonesian Government.
O’BRIEN:
The point I am leading to is that it was very clear after the Indonesian election a) that there was going to be that power vacuum in Indonesia. Secondly, it’s been clear for a long time and many people have been warning of it of that limbo, that dangerous limbo situation in East Timor. In that event was it not possible for you and your Government to anticipate precisely, or as near as precisely, what is now unfolding as one very possible scenario and have a plan in place now?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the plan that we had in place, one of the plans was to persuade the Indonesians to have a peacekeeping force in before the formal ratification of Timorese independence and the Indonesian Government steadfastly refused to agree to that. I raised that with President Habibie last Friday before the vote was completed and he rejected it. Now, if a country rejects peacekeeping on its soil they can only go there if you declare war on that country. And…
O’BRIEN:
That we discussed on the programme last night with Alexander Downer. Surely the IMF, the World Bank, the United Nations, through those resources and countries like the United States and yourself and others, surely to put it crudely the screws could have been tightened on Indonesia much sooner than they have been given what has now unfolded?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don’t accept that if you had put, as you have put it, the screws on Indonesia financially before the ballot you would have produced a better result, in fact, you could have produced a worse result. You could have produced a far more defensive siege mentality on the part of the Indonesians, a determination to do greater evil in East Timor, a determination to defy the rest of the world whatever the cost. I don’t think that would have been a smart call and it could, in fact, have made the situation worse.
O’BRIEN:
When did you first formally approach the United States for support for a peacekeeping force? When did you first formally approach the Security Council?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the Security Council knew our position some days ago. I was formally asked whether we would participate in a peacekeeping force if one could be organised two days ago. I rang President Clinton last night although there have been informal discussions at an ambassador state department level prior to that.
O’BRIEN:
This might be a naive question on my part but why couldn’t these conversations have taken place weeks and weeks ago as a contingency against the prospect of this bloodbath happening?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, perhaps you could put that question to the United Nations. I mean, this hasn’t been done….
O’BRIEN:
But aren’t we supposed to be taking leadership on it?
PRIME MINISTER:
…under the aegis of the United Nations. But the, look,…I mean, that’s an easy thing to say now but bear in mind you have to consider that sort of action, the effect of that sort of action on the Indonesians in the wake of the ballot result. But in our own situation we have been preparing for months.
O’BRIEN:
Ah…
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, you raised the question of anticipating. I mean, it’s fair of me to make the point that four or five months ago we decided to have another brigade ready for this very eventuality. And the fact that we can deploy 2,000 troops within 48 to 72 hours which will be the largest deployment of Australian forces for more than 30 years, if it were to come about, is the result of us having done the very thing that you said a moment ago we should have done and that is think ahead.
O’BRIEN:
John Howard, thank you very much for talking with us.
[ends]