Subjects: Defence White Paper; foreign policy; trade; flood relief; workers entitlements; Sydney Airport
E&OE……………………………………………………………………………………
JONES:
Prime Minister good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Alan. Are you well?
JONES:
You’re meant to be slowing down as Christmas approaches. What’s going on?
PRIME MINISTER:
We’re just getting on with making a number of very important announcements before the end of the year. The biggest one of all is the Defence White Paper which comes out this morning. I’ll be tabling it in Parliament at 11 o’clock.
JONES:
You’ve had a big role in that yourself haven’t you?
PRIME MINISTER:
A very big role. I’m very committed to more spending on defence. This is the biggest revamp of our defence capability and the most comprehensive white paper in decades and it will commit billions of dollars of extra spending over the next decade.
JONES:
Would you as Prime Minister say that there are strategic problems within the region? There is a new instability when you look for example Fiji, and the Solomon Islands, and Indonesia and problems in the presidency of the Philippines, difficulties in Japan, concerns with China and Taiwan, North Korea, South Korea. It is rather a unique set of circumstances which Australia needs to take seriously would you agree?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we certainly have a different strategic climate than we might have anticipated a few years ago. Not all of those things you mentioned pose strategic problems. They are in many cases purely internal. But there has been instability in the Pacific and associated region over the last year. We clearly need to have a defence capability that in a non-threatening and cooperative way equips us to do what we need to do.
JONES:
But the policy would be, would it not, that you wouldn’t go in if not invited? You’ll develop a capability….
PRIME MINISTER:
You never go into a country unless you’re invited, unless you’re effectively declaring war on them.
JONES:
That’s correct.
PRIME MINISTER:
We’re certainly not a belligerent country. You will remember in East Timor that we went in only after we had been effectively invited by the Indonesian Government and also with the sanction of the United Nations.
JONES:
And you’re going to improve our capacity to be able to do that?
PRIME MINISTER:
I’m going to do a number of things, well the Government is going to do a number of things. And I do want to record my gratitude to the work that John Moore the Defence Minister’s done on this White Paper. He’s been quite terrific. I’ll be outlining our capability both in terms of the sort of things you’re speaking of and the wider defence of Australia role which is always the first responsibility of the government. But it’s a very comprehensive white paper and I believe that we’ve got the balance right between the defence of Australia role and the role of which you speak.
JONES:
I spoke to Professor Paul Dibb earlier this morning and we were canvassing the notion that if you’ve got a defence white paper do we need a foreign policy white paper?
PRIME MINISTER:
We’ve had one.
JONES:
Well you’ve had plenty of them.
PRIME MINISTER:
We had one a couple of years ago.
JONES:
Yes. I’m just wondering though do the problems with Indonesia, the sensitivities with Indonesia and in particular Malaysia add to tensions in the region which defence white papers won’t overcome? In other words you’ve got to really grapple with those diplomatically haven’t you?
PRIME MINISTER:
You need both Alan. You need a skilful diplomacy. We have a political difficulty at a government level with Indonesia following East Timor. But things are improving. I mean later this week there’ll be a ministerial council in Canberra, senior ministers from Indonesia, senior ministers from Australia. I’m quite delighted that that meeting is now going to go ahead and I’ll be meeting the ministerial group on Friday morning. In Malaysia it’s fair to say that we have been subjected to criticism by the Malaysian Prime Minister as was my predecessor. On the other hand the people to people links between Australia and Malaysia, the business links, the long term cultural links are very strong. So I take a longer view of the relationship that Australia has with each of those two countries. They’re both important to us. But as I’ve always said in foreign affairs you can only have a sound relationship if it is based on mutual respect.
JONES:
Just on that, could I just ask you though because governments are working I know on a proposal now for a grouping of ASEAN plus three, which is a trade block that would include the ten smaller nations of ASEAN and the big three economies of north Asia – Japan, China, and South Korea. But it is true isn’t it that you are, that’s not you, Australia are being black balled by Malaysia and Indonesia, you can’t get membership of that trade block?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well at the present time we’re not being invited to join it but of course things can change and in the meantime we are pursuing other options.
JONES:
But it does damage our economic interest doesn’t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don’t know that in the short term it damages them and in the long term things might change. You’ve always got to keep flexibility, you’ve always got to take a long view, and in the meantime grab hold of other opportunities. For example we’re negotiating a free trade agreement now with Singapore. We are open to other free trade arrangements which are consistent with our long-term multilateral trade aims. So it’s really a question of not investing so much in one outcome or one relationship that if something goes wrong or something is delayed you’ve got to start again. And that’s one of the things I’ve sought to do with our foreign policy. I’ve sought to see Australia having linkages not only with the Asia Pacific which is tremendously important to us, but also with Europe and North America. I’ve sought successfully I believe to re-balance our foreign relations so that we are not seen as exclusively concerned with one part of the world because that is not in the best interests of Australia.
JONES:
Prime Minister, these floods could arguably be the worst in a hundred years. In a hundred years. 7,700 farmers have been virtually wiped out. The man who represents them is the Deputy Prime Minister John Anderson. He said yesterday after the announcement of this package that between 50% and 75% of them would be able to access the assistance and indeed the grant that you’ve made will only go to farmers who’ve suffered two consecutive years of crop losses. What the hell do these people do for money?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Alan these grants will go to people who’ve lost in the latest flood and also have had a cumulative loss over the previous two years. If you don’t qualify for that you will still qualify for natural disaster relief, you will still qualify for….
JONES:
Means tested.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, but hang on, there’s nothing unreasonable about that. You will also…..
JONES:
I think there is.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no could I, Alan, please. There are two other elements of the package that I’ve got to mention that these people will qualify for. They’ll qualify for the income support and they’ll also qualify for the interest rate subsidy in relation to their existing loan.
JONES:
But do you know what you’re saying?
PRIME MINISTER:
I do.
JONES:
You just used three words there – interest; rate; subsidy.
PRIME MINISTER:
In relation to their existing loans.
JONES:
But they’ve still got to find monthly money to repay those loans. Prime Minister can you tell me how they do that?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I’m sorry, interest rate subsidies, I’m sorry. We must be at cross purposes.
JONES:
No we’re not. On their existing loans. You’ll get 70% interest subsidy….
PRIME MINISTER:
They’ll get 70%.
JONES:
That’s subsidy, on the loan. So if for example they currently owe $1000 a month, they have to find $300. How do they find $300? They’ve got no crop, on money, no fences, on cattle, no nothing.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Alan, those people get, are entitled, if that is their situation, to natural disaster relief and they are entitled to income support.
JONES:
I’m sorry. I can’t believe this. I mean small businesses are getting a grant of $10,000. Does anyone in Canberra know how far $10,000 goes when your whole business, your stock, your everything has been wiped out?
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan it’s very easy in a situation like this to say that we could have done more. The sky’s the limit to this. But you’ve got a package which along with our natural disaster relief system involves almost $220 million. On top of that you have $120 million….
JONES:
[inaudible] wheat crop.
PRIME MINISTER:
No I’m sorry. Could I just finish, please. And $120 million or more coming from the New South Wales government. So you have in the order of $350 to $400 million coming from two levels of government. Now we think that is a very fair package and indeed the New South Wales Farmers original proposition to us involved a slightly tighter criteria in relation to the cropping grant.
JONES:
The farmers have said….
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I’m sorry in know what the farmers said. I had a meeting…..
JONES:
Prime Minister, bear with me, I’m serious.
PRIME MINISTER:
So am I.
JONES:
You know, you get a fair go
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah I know, but [inaudible].
JONES:
But I reckon this is miserable and mean.
PRIME MINISTER:
I don’t think I’m being miserable and mean.
JONES:
Well I’m not saying you. I mean the Cabinet is being miserable…..
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I am the head of the Cabinet.
JONES:
Okay. John Cobb says for those farmers, that’s whose crop was wiped out for the first time, wiped out for the first time, Cobb says the only option is to go into more debt to replant in the hope of making a return next year. Go into more debt.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well all I can say in reply to that, Alan, is that the original proposition that was put to us by the New South Farmers talked about excluding farmers that did not get two-thirds of their income from cropping over the last three years. So I think it’s probably a bit unfair of the New South Wales Farmers now to turn around and say against that background that we’re being unfair going back. What we’re proposing is a situation where you only have to demonstrate a cumulative loss – that’s a net loss, not two-thirds – over the previous two years. I can only repeat what I was told and I had a very productive discussion with Mr Cobb when I went out to Gunnedah.
JONES:
Well this package. I can …. the package said yesterday will give farm families $15,000 in welfare support over the next 12 months. I mean you’re a parent – you’ve got kids and a wife and a mortgage. Do you know how far $15,000 goes over 12 months?
PRIME MINISTER:
I’m aware that it is not a large amount but I’m also aware that people in all sorts of circumstances all around Australia get into difficult situations and as a group of people this is the most generous rescue package in my political experience for a group of people. I can’t think of one that has been more generous.
JONES:
It’s also the worse disaster.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well every disaster, I mean if you have a disastrous fire in your business and you’re wiped out and you lose everything and you don’t have any insurance, you don’t get anything.
JONES:
That’s why we need a national disaster fund then we’d have objective and clear guidelines.
PRIME MINISTER:
I’ll tell you what. The natural disaster relief arrangements …
JONES:
Well if they were adequate you wouldn’t have to …
PRIME MINISTER:
I’m sorry Alan, could I finish. The natural disaster relief arrangements that operate here are effectively uncapped and there is no natural disaster fund of which you speak that would end up being more generous than that.
JONES:
But PM, if your disaster relief arrangements, you keep saying this, are adequate, why do then do you have to say oh well as well as that we’ll give you $15,000 in welfare in support as well as that we’ll pay 70% of the interest on the existing farm …
PRIME MINISTER:
Because you would never have, Alan, no matter how much money you put into a fund, you would never have enough to satisfy each situation and no community will support the annual subvention from the Budget of an unlimited amount of money to go into a natural disaster relief fund. No community would support that.
JONES:
I’m not saying that. I’m saying that money ought to be appropriated each year into a national disaster
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think …
JONES:
See what are you announcing yesterday for those farmers between Brisbane and Dalby who are going through the worst drought in 100 years. They don’t have a bean. What do they do? They’re walking off their farms. Nothing for them.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Alan, if they qualify for emergency circumstances they can get social security relief. They can. You say there’s nothing for them. I mean the package yesterday was directed towards people not only in New South Wales but also in Queensland.
JONES:
Yes, flood, not drought.
PRIME MINISTER:
That doesn’t rule out that we will address people in equally necessitous circumstances in drought. That is not ruled out and we’re conscious that whenever you do something for the first time – this is the first time a government has given a direct non-repayable grant for re-cropping purposes. That’s never happened before.
JONES:
Is anyone going to be able to check that it’s used for re-cropping. What if these people walk off their farms, do they still get it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well of course it will be used for re-cropping.
JONES:
Not necessarily, I mean there’s a lot of other things. They’ve got to build fences and everything as well these blokes.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they do get assistance in relation to the natural disaster arrangements for much of that. Natural disaster will assist them in relation to that. Common, this is the first time any government has given a non-repayable cash grant for re-cropping purposes. I am not aware that this has ever happened before. Now I think against that background, whilst you can argue that there should be more – and I understand that – but I don’t think it is reasonable to imply that it is mean.
JONES:
Christmas time, and you and I have talked a million and one times about the entitlement of workers to get that which is legislatively mandated to be theirs. We still have the problem and not just with the STP workers, Steel Tank and Pipe people in Newcastle, we’ve still got people from Austral Pacific of two years ago who haven’t got the entitlements to which they were due and now we find out yesterday that these blokes are going to get 60-70 cents in the dollar. When are you going to be able to say to all Australian workers that they will, no matter the circumstances receive the benefits which government has ordained are rightfully theirs?
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan we already have a scheme which provides a floor up to a certain level, it’s not unlimited. We are willing . . .
JONES:
Just interrupt there Prime Minister, it’s 8.30am, but I’ll keep talking to the Prime Minister. Thank you PM.
PRIME MINISTER:
We are, we have a scheme, it started on the 1st of January this year, that provides benefits up to a certain level in relation to what, you know to what you speak of.
JONES:
$20,000.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but it’s better than nothing.
JONES:
Sure but I mean . . .
PRIME MINISTER:
No but hang on and many of the benefits to which you refer which have been ordained by government, they are ordained by state government and we take the view that the state government should match us dollar for dollar. And I say to all of the state governments in Australia, it would be a much happier Christmas for the workers of Australia who lose their money and lose their entitlements if they match the generosity of the Federal Government.
JONES:
But why shouldn’t the employer be responsible for that? He’s the one who employed them.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well by definition in many of these cases, the employer goes broke and can’t afford to.
JONES:
Well he hasn’t made the provisions as he’s gone along.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well exactly but we’ve had this debate before. The consequence of that in relation to many small businesses would be that they could not afford to employ as many people because their cash flow . . .
JONES:
They’re using workers’ money to keep going?
PRIME MINISTER:
In some cases they are not making provision because they need the cash to run the business.
JONES:
One of the reasons they are not making provision because they don’t get a tax deduction until such time as they make the payment to the worker . . .
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan, it is a cash flow issue, you ask any small business.
JONES:
Well the workers’ not entitled to use an employees’ money to keep a business going.
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan I just invite you to talk to . . .
JONES:
Well I employ people.
PRIME MINISTER:
I know that, I am aware of that. But . . .
JONES:
I’m not entitled to use their money to keep my business going.
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan I can only say to you that if you talk to any small businessmen you will find from a cash flow point of view many of them would find it impossible to make all of the provision of which you speak without it having a significant consequence on their business.
JONES:
So workers are subsidising small business?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well what’s happening Alan is that we’re providing a scheme, not one state government in Australia has signed up to it in full, not one. I mean most of these entitlements are mandated by . . .
JONES:
Well I think they most probably think that the taxpayer shouldn’t be picking up the tab.
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh yes but what happens if the business goes broke?
JONES:
Well the business should have been making provision . . .
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Alan . . .
JONES:
And they would have got their money.
PRIME MINISTER:
That is unrealistic because businesses as you know, no matter what the rules are go broke on a regular basis and that is part and parcel of the way our system operates, that is why we have relief arrangements, underwriting arrangements from governments. Now we are playing our part, we have established a scheme, the state governments of Australia who mandate most of the entitlements that we are willing to fund up to a certain level, they have yet to come to the party. And I ask all of them, Liberal and Labor alike to do the right thing by the workers of Australia, match the generosity of the Federal Government.
JONES:
Just one before you go. I was wondering if it was the 1st of April Prime Minister because I read in one paper today that Federal Cabinet is considering plans for a new multi-billion airport on the Kurnell Peninsula and you’d have to move the Caltex Kurnell Oil Refinery to the Hunter Valley at the cost of $2 billion. Is this fair dinkum?
PRIME MINISTER:
We are looking at a number of options and I don’t rule out any of them.
JONES:
You did tell me the last time I spoke to you about all of this that the decision on Badgery’s Creek would be made before Christmas.
PRIME MINISTER:
I said we expected to make an announcement before Christmas.
JONES:
Nineteen days to go, are you there?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Alan we’re having a further discussion about this whole issue.
JONES:
So you are talking about Kurnell?
PRIME MINISTER:
We are not ruling anything out. We’re not ruling anything out. You know the difficulties of Badgery’s Creek. You also know the difficulties of alternatives. And we’re not ruling anything out. And we’re seriously examining all of the options. And one of the things that you’ve got to remember about the location of Sydney Airport is that it is remarkably and conveniently very close to the city and that is an enormous advantage to our tourist industry and it’s not an asset that I want to see lightly thrown away.
JONES:
Caltex said last night they’d heard nothing at all about the proposal. Surely you couldn’t be considering Kurnell without talking to the outfit that owns the refinery.
PRIME MINISTER:
Let me answer that question by saying this, we wouldn’t be doing any of this in a careless, unorthodox way. That’s all I’ll say about that particular comment.
JONES:
Okay and thank you for your time Prime Minister and Happy Christmas, we won’t get a chance to speak between now and Christmas. Happy Christmas, all the best for 2001 and thank you for all your time and your courtesy and co-operation during the course of the year our listeners appreciate it very much.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you Alan and a Merry Christmas to you and all of your wonderful listeners.
[ends]