Subjects: VIP aircraft fleet; floods; petrol; QLD electoral fraud
E&OE……………………………………………………………………………………
JONES:
Good afternoon PM.
PRIME MINISTER:
How are you Alan? Good to be with you again.
JONES:
Thank you. But where have you been?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I’ve been all over the place. I spent three days in Melbourne, I came back from Brunei last week. I’m going off tomorrow with John Anderson to have a look at the flood damaged areas of New South Wales.
JONES:
We’ll come to that in a minute. PM can I just say on behalf of millions of Australians I don’t like my Prime Minister flying in clapped out 707s and reading that the plane’s come unstuck at Darwin and the replacement plane won’t start and so on. Can we grow up, what’s happening? Are we going to replace this fleet?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes. We have placed an order for replacements and those replacement planes will come available some time in the next year or 18 months.
JONES:
And in the mean time?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well in the mean time the Falcons that we use to fly around Australia, there’s nothing wrong with them.
JONES:
Okay.
PRIME MINISTER:
I only use the 707s to travel to destinations in the region. I’ve never taken them to Europe or America but I have taken them on trips to Japan and China and Korea and…
JONES:
They’re so out of date that many airports won’t allow them to land….
PRIME MINISTER:
They are too noisy. You can’t land them at Sydney airport for example. They can only take off from Richmond RAAF base.
JONES:
And because they’re old they’re dear, about $12,000 an hour isn’t it or something?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that’s the nominal price. It puzzles me how something can be…when you bought it 20 years ago and you employ the pilots and crew anyway, it puzzles me how the cost can be more than the fuel. But the bean counters tell me it is.
JONES:
Yeah, but at the same time it’s money, it’s an investment in Australia. It’s not money wasted, the money well spent on a new fleet is it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course. And mind you when we’re not using them for VIP they have been used to carry troops around. Could I also say that when it comes to safety I’m just as concerned about their reliability when flying the men and women of our defence force as they are about flying me and members of my department and touring party. The safety of the men and women in the defence force is just as important as my safety.
JONES:
PM, we’re looking at, if we just go on the map of Australia, Mackay, 16 to 20 inches of rain, in sections up there a sugar cane industry wiped out. I’ve been speaking every day for the last two weeks to a farmer at Kingsthorpe which is about 82 miles from here, 82 miles from Brisbane, and they have the worst drought in 100 years, farmers walking off their farms. Then you come further south to southwest Queensland, you’ve got the worst floods in 50 years in New South Wales. A third of the state under water. We’re back to the old cycle aren’t we of natural disasters?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we seem to be at the moment. These floods in New South Wales, so many of the old stagers in the area tell me, are the worst ever. I spoke to the President of the National Farmers’ Federation yesterday and his information from all of his colleagues is to that effect. I’ll go to some of the areas tomorrow. I’ve spoken about the problem with the New South Wales Premier Mr Carr. We will do more, let me make that clear. As well as the ordinary emergency disaster relief arrangements that trigger in when something like this happens.
JONES:
But you know what I’m going to say…..
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I’m coming to that. But I did want to say that we are going to provide more resources.
JONES:
But the very fact that you have to indicates that the current structures are not adequate to address the problem because every time this comes up you have to say well we’ll give you $10 million now and I’ll talk to Bob Carr, Peter Beattie, I’ll talk to Steve Bracks. See, haven’t we got to put in place a structure which ministers to these problems whenever they arrive.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, can I say, I mean I do know that is your view.
JONES:
You’re the Prime Minister and I’m not.
PRIME MINISTER:
That’s right, I picked it up on one or two occasions. I do understand that. And we’re not arguing about motive. I mean we both want to help them. A standing fund, a designated fund, no matter what rules you applied to run it, would not necessarily be any better than what we now do because every circumstance is different. John Anderson told me yesterday that he’s been to talk to farmers who’ve been affected and I said what do they want. And he said their response was until we know the full dimension of the damage and until we know whether we’re going to be able to save any of our crops and what prospect there is of putting crop back in we can’t really tell you.
JONES:
No but I can answer that question, I can answer that proposition because you see when you came to East Timor you had exactly the same circumstance. You piloted that international movement in East Timor. You didn’t quite know how long it would take, what it would involve.
PRIME MINISTER:
But I had a force for it.
JONES:
Yeah, but hang on. You imposed a levy and that levy raised from all Australian taxpayers was available to you to meet any contingent. It didn’t come out of the budget bottom line. The nation felt good about pitching in. Now John Anderson’s talking to you about, and legitimately about the crops, the wheat farmers. What about the bloke, the stock and station agent, what about the transport man whose livelihood is transporting grain. He’s got no job. His truck’s not worth two bob now. What about the bloke who sells cars in Gunnedah, Moree, Charleville and Cunnamulla? He’s relying on the wheat crop to come in so that he’s got……all these people down the line are in deep trouble right now.
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan I understand that. And I mean we’re not really at cross purposes about a desire to help them. What you’re arguing is that you should have a designated fund, that everybody, that you pay into each year. Now I think the weakness of that approach is that it would have to be so large each year to cover every possible contingency that you wouldn’t have such strong support for it as you think. People support help, helping their fellow Australians in distress when they see that distress. But if it’s something that is theoretical and something that is not visibly required at the time you make the contribution, I don’t think the public sentiment is quite the same.
JONES:
Drive out to Kingsthorpe and it’ll be pretty visible to see the drought, their pain….
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan, yes right now but I think the far better situation is that when a problem arises if you have government response mechanisms that are effective and they can be tailored for the circumstances at the time.
JONES:
But they musn’t be effective if Bob Carr in New South Wales today is calling for a fund. I don’t know what he’s calling it. We’ve got the Daily Telegraph putting in money - The Government Community Disaster Relief Fund. Well you wouldn’t have such a fund if the systems were in place.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes but do you really want though to remove the capacity for Australians themselves to help their fellow Australians when there’s a disaster.
JONES:
Well they do that through tax.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think a lot of them also like to make an extra contribution, I mean I don’t regard…
JONES:
This is mammoth…
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes I know, I don’t regard, I don’t regard the tax I pay as ever absolving me of a personal responsibility to give something out of my own pocket…
JONES:
But people have lost $600, $700 million in income, where do they get that, how do they get that, see these blokes are…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there are, well there are, there are particular ways in which the Government can help…
JONES:
Then they all fill out forms and they don’t understand the forms…
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan even if you had a natural disaster fund there’d be forms as a criteria, I mean don’t think you can abolish that just by having a designated natural disaster fund…
JONES:
I just worry about the people that we don’t…
PRIME MINISTER:
I mean the best natural disaster fund to have is a good-hearted Government that’s willing to help when there’s a problem. Now I’m the leader of a good-hearted Government that will help these people because they have a big problem. Now that’s better than any natural disaster fund, with respect, and I’m going to do something more, I’ve told the leaders of the farm organisations that, I’ve told the New South Wales Premier that the Federal Government is prepared to provide more assistance. I’ve got to, obviously, make an assessment of what is reasonable and fair, because I’ve got obligations to other people all around the country and we’ve got to spend a lot more money on defence, going to spend more money on a whole raft of things that people are asking for. But these poor people do need more help, and they will get it…
JONES:
I lot of people have made a big quid out of the farmers, I mean banks in particular…
PRIME MINISTER:
I think that as far as the banks are concerned they do have an obligation
JONES:
Definitely
PRIME MINISTER:
A big obligation, they have been very profitable, very profitable. I mean they’re very safe, they’re very reliable, they’re very well run, and I don’t knock them every day of the week like other people do…
JONES:
What should they be doing?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think they have to give loan relief, they have to defer interest payments, they have to try…
JONES:
Defer you say, or do they have to…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well depending on the circumstances…
JONES:
(inaudible)
PRIME MINISTER:
I’m not going to give a sort of a blanket, try and give a blanket instruction to the banks, anyway I don’t have the power to do so, but the view I would put to the banks is that they should understand the scale of this disaster. They should recognise that they live in a very stable, profitable banking environment in Australia, and there is an expectation from the Australian community, there is an expectation from the Australian Government that the banks will play a very significant part in helping the rural community. Now what that may be in individual places will vary and it’s not a one-size fits all situation.
JONES:
What about consumer areas where it’s Christmas time coming up, what about the Coles and the Woolworths and the CUBs and the Schweppes and so on. I mean these people are without cash flow, it’s a bad time of the year, it’s Christmas time. We’ve got to make sure kids can have as normal a Christmas…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well of course we do, and my experience with many of the big corporates in Australia on occasions like this is that they have been very generous, very generous indeed.
JONES:
Very difficult isn’t it, for the transport person I’ve spoken to you about who is depending on grain…
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes
JONES:
It’s very difficult for him to mount a case that he needs help, he’s not directly affected…
PRIME MINISTER:
No well that is, they are, there is no easy answer to that and that is why can I say again that you really can, you really have to respond to each particular situation according to it’s needs.
JONES:
Disease is a big worry isn’t it now, it’s an ugly thing to talk about on this programme, or any programme, but reports I’ve had is that the drinking water has been contaminated by the septic and all the rest of it
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh yes, everything goes, the whole system collapses and you get a disaster of this magnitude.
JONES:
Is there any circumstance, at this point, under which you might decide to call the army in, who have got tremendous skills in this particular area
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they are automatically involved. We have a very elaborate… I saw them on the television with helping with the sand bagging and building the levees. Look if there is ever any need for their help it’s readily provided and there are standing arrangements for that to occur, but the State Emergency Services do a terrific job, the police do a great job. We have an almost spontaneous local network in this country which springs into action every time you have a disaster of this order.
JONES:
But we have a got a disaster here in this state of Queensland, 11,000 properties are drought declared. As someone from the bush I can tell you what that means. It is devastating and yet they just live on, they just live on rations as a result.
PRIME MINISTER:
They do, and it’s appalling, it’s quite extraordinary. I’ve visited, not in the last few months but I have visited some of those areas over the years and they are very heartbreaking.
JONES:
Just on another issue Prime Minister. You must be disappointed about the persistence, the constant, almost campaign, in relation to petrol prices. We’ve got a shortage of availability of crude oil, that has escalated the price of crude, that’s affected the price that you pay here. We’ve still got some of the cheapest petrol prices in the world.
PRIME MINISTER:
Third or fourth cheapest in the world, $2.20 a litre in Great Britain
JONES:
And you’re still under siege do you think? Or…
PRIME MINISTER:
I don’t…
JONES:
Do you get protests from the people that you meet?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I’m not stopped in the streets about it. But people are unhappy and I understand why, I don’t like the price of petrol being so high, it’s high because the world price is high, that’s the reason. I would wish it were, it would come down, I would wish it were otherwise and I hope it does come down next year. The indications are that it should. I can’t be certain of that, and I think the campaign will go on in various forms, because it’s an easy campaign to run.
JONES:
It seems extraordinary, though, that intelligent people would be arguing that at a time where there is a scarcity of a finite resource that you should be selling it more cheaply than can be sustained.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think from a conservation point of view that’s a sound argument. And I think what people are saying is that if the price came down, if the price were to come down to what it was a year or 18 months ago then we wouldn’t be talking about it now. And the reason it is not there is because of what the oil producing countries have done to the price and the reaction of the world market over that period of time.
JONES:
Much is being made of what the Treasury, your Treasury Secretary has said, that the petrol price is dearer then it would have been, than it was, without the GST, as if the GST is to blame. There are other factors since the GST came into place aren’t there.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes look, if you look at what he said he didn’t disagree with the Government. Of course if the price of petrol goes up the amount of GST in cents goes up, because that’s how the tax system works. But there was a compensating cut in excise, and when you allow for the cost savings under tax reform that the oil companies got, the amount of excise cut and the cost savings is the same as the amount of the GST on a litre of petrol at 90 cents a litre, so there’s nothing in what Ted Evans said that is different from what the Government has said.
JONES:
Are you going to have a Cabinet reshuffle before Christmas?
PRIME MINISTER:
I never talk about reshuffles.
JONES:
After Christmas?
PRIME MINISTER:
Never talk about reshuffle, before or after Christmas.
JONES:
Electoral fraud
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh big issue, big issue here. It’s quite extraordinary what’s unravelled in Queensland, and I think the facts speak for themselves. I don’t know what is involved with Mr Elder, but when the number two man in the Government goes, it’s big.
JONES:
Good to talk to you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]