Subjects: Mandatory sentencing, United Nations, stolen generation, practical reconciliation
E&OE………………………………………………………………………………………………
DURANTE:
A lot has since happened since that particular Sunday night anyway. Do you still stand by the Herron submission given the latest revelation from historian Dr Peter Read from the ANU that the claim of only 10 percent is based on suspect data that this data collected in the Northern Territory in 1993 only included those Aboriginal people of full blood descent and not those of part descent.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I haven’t read that latest material as you refer to so it’s not possible for me to say whether that would alter the submission that Senator Herron put in or not. That submission was not prepared in a political environment by Senator Herron. It was actually prepared by officials in the Indigenous Affairs branch and it was meant to be simply a factual analysis of some of the material in the original report and I don’t know that it serves a great deal of purpose to say well I have this or that reaction to some comment that has been made on the Senate submission. I have indicated in Parliament that if anybody was offended by what was in that document then I am sorry about that. It was not intended to hurt or offend people. However it’s legitimate for a government when it’s asked to make a submission by a Senate inquiry to make that submission and that’s what happened. It was put together in good faith. You may disagree with it and that is fair enough. Other researchers may disagree with it and that is fair enough too. But it wasn’t the intention of the Government to hurt anybody with that document and I am very sorry that people have been offended by it but nonetheless there are certain pieces of analysis in that document that remain valid and there are reasonable points to be made and no matter how strongly people may feel -rightly - about past practices it shouldn’t prevent facts being brought to the attention of a Parliamentary inquiry. I think the important thing about the original “Bringing Them Home” report is that the Government has already responded to the recommendations about reuniting families. We have been particularly keen to provide resources for link up and other facilities.
DURANTE:
Yes, but Mr Howard that is not being spent is it? The $63 million dollars.
PRIME MINISTER:
That $63 million dollars is over a four year period and it’s not fair to say that it’s not being spent in the sense of saying that oh we are reluctant to spend it. I mean it’s been appropriated. It’s been put in the Budget. There is no reluctance on our part to spend it but if you have got something that is to be expended over a four year period and that four year period hasn’t elapsed, of course not all of it has been spent.
DURANTE:
Well, Mr Howard, you have since apologised for the, not wanting to cause any offence to people who may be offended by the items in that particular submission. Regardless though people are still protesting about it and today even you had protesters following you around didn’t you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Karen it is the life of the Prime Minister from time to time to have protesters against him. I don’t object to that although I have to say those particular protesters drowned out the singing of 6 and 8 year old children which wasn’t very charitable but anyway that is another issue. Look Karen, I don’t deny that the presentation of that document has generated a lot of debate and a lot of comment, a lot of criticism and I have indicated that there were no malign intentions on the part of the Government but it has to be possible to debate some of the issues surrounding this particular matter without people’s motives always being unfairly impugned. I mean suggestions that the Government is engaged in racist wedge politics and allegations of that kind are not only unhelpful to the whole process but they are also quite untrue and they are resented very deeply by me and by members of my Government. I mean there is two sides to this. There has been some very harsh things said about Senator Herron, unfair things and about other members of the government. Now we have indicated that there was no intent to hurt anybody, I am sorry if anybody was. I regret that. I mean I don’t want to hurt any Australian. I am the Prime Minister of this country. It’s not my desire to hurt anybody but I think we have to look at this in an open, fair-minded context.
DURANTE:
Can I ask you then your reaction to Bill Jonas’ report to Social Justice and the Native Title Report. I mean in the media today, Jonas has basically been saying that reconciliation is dead. If you don’t offer a national formal apology to the stolen generation and if we don’t resolve the mandatory sentencing issue either.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well as far as mandatory sentencing is concerned, I am having some discussions soon with the Chief Minister of the Northern Territory. I don’t want to speculate about what might come out of those discussions because it will make them more difficult. On the issue of reconciliation, as far as the Government is concerned, the process is not dead and I will do my level best to keep the process going and there’s total good will on the part of the Government towards achieving a continuation of that process. On the issue of native title, our position, the Government’s position is that that matter was dealt with by the Parliament several years ago. I don’t think it will help if the whole issue of native title were to be reopened. Its been a very divisive issue unfortunately and what we endeavor to do was to reach a compromise that was fair and reasonable to everybody. Our advice was that what we had done with a native title legislation was quite consistent with the racial discrimination act and we are not intending to reopen the native title issue we don’t believe that anything is going to be achieved by doing that. Now, I respect Mr Jonas’ opinion but it’s one opinion from a person I respect and who is making a very good contribution to this country but there are other views about the legal force of the native title act and there are other views about the inherent balance in that what was a compromise. I mean a lot of people on both sides of the debate were unhappy with the final compromise but it didn’t alter the fact that is was a fair compromise and one that tried to do the best by both sides of the argument.
DURANTE:
And you have stated repeatedly that you are not interested in the UN coming over and telling Australia how to do its business in its own domestic affairs. Do you still stand by that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well of course I do. I don’t think any self-respecting Prime Minister of this country can accept the situation where we have a debate in this country and that debate is resolved in a particular way and then some of the people who are unhappy with that outcome and others argue before an international body and then we are expected to alter the outcome of the results, the outcome of that issue as a result of views of the international body. I mean, I think we have to resolve these things in our own country. We don’t think that the latest committee report was fair. We think its criticism of the Government was unreasonable. We don’t think they took much account of our submissions and we have made it very plain that we are not happy. Now that doesn’t mean that we are indifferent to the United Nations. We acted under a United Nations mandate in East Timor after all. So we are not disrespectful to the United Nations but the United Nations committees are not infallible. There seems to be a view that whatever any agency of the United Nations says has to be right. Well I am afraid that that is not the case and in the end most Australians believe that we have to solve our problems and our challenges here in Australia.
DURANTE:
But wouldn’t they get a better picture of perhaps the situation if they were invited over to Australia by the Australian Parliament?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they’ve shown no willingness in the past to listen seriously to many of the submissions put by the Australian Government. I mean we sent to Geneva, Philip Ruddock whose understanding of these issues is considerable and very sensitive and he is very committed to Human Rights issues and he is a senior Minister in the Government and he’s got responsibility helping me on the reconciliation issue and he has spent a lot of time with the committee and felt very strongly after the meeting that there wasn’t really a serious willingness to listen to what was being put. Now no government can ignore that kind of treatment. I mean we didn’t treat the committee with indifference or contempt. We sent a senior Cabinet Minister. I don’t think we have done that at that level before, or certainly not for some time so that is hardly treating the process in a trivial way. We feel that we treated the issue rather more seriously than we were treated by the UN committee and that is the reason why the Government feels strongly on the issue.
DURANTE:
You brought up Minister Philip Ruddock there. Are you happy with his performance in terms of the portfolio of reconciliation?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh yes, I think Philip has done a very good job. Karen, this is not an easy issue. I understand the importance and the sensitivity of these issues to indigenous people.
DURANTE:
You think they have got a lot of expectations though don’t you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we all have expectation and we all have to I guess mix our highest expectations with a sense of realism about what can be achieved. The important thing is to keep trying and never say well it’s finished or it’s derailed or it’s over. I think that is unhelpful because it never is if you have people of good will on both sides trying to make it work.
DURANTE:
Well what do you want to see happen? How can you see reconciliation really working, given that when you have got Senator Aden Ridgeway saying look overturn mandatory sentencing laws in the Northern Territory and maybe we will come back to participating in the reconciliation process?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don’t know whether he has quite said that and I had a discussion with Aden Ridgeway the other day. I had a half hour discussion with Senator Ridgeway and I am not go into what he said there. It was a private discussion and it was conducted in an atmosphere of great good will but what he said publicly I take account of. I have a lot of respect for him. I don’t think any of us should be in the business of saying, well you can’t go any further unless A B and C happens. I think what you have to do is keep the process going, keep the process of discussion going involving the reconciliation council and ATSIC and others and see what can be over time achieved. It’s a slow process and you will have set backs from time to time. You will have difficulties and I don’t pretend that the last week hasn’t been difficult. Of course it has. I understand that. I am particularly sensitive to it but I haven’t lost my commitment and I haven’t lost my interest and I haven’t lost my desire to get a decent outcome.
DURANTE:
So if you are still committed to the reconciliation process, does that mean that if it means that you have to overturn mandatory sentencing, you have to look again back at the native title laws, the amendments and also apologise to the stolen generation, will you do that in order to achieve it, if that looks like what it will have to take for it to happen?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Karen I am not prepared to sort of accept benchmarks to what or may or may not be needed to achieve reconciliation. That’s not the way to achieve it. I can’t have a situation where I am going to say well I will only do this or that. I mean you look at each of these things on their merits. I don’t want to say anything further on mandatory sentencing. The Australian public knows my position on that. I personally don’t agree with it. I genuinely however take the view that issues of the criminal law are for the states and territory and that has long been the tradition in this country. However, I am having a discussion with Mr Burke about and until that discussion has occurred I have got nothing further to say. On the other issues I have tried to explain my position in relation to native title and the question of a formal apology. I heard George a moment ago, before we came on, you played me the recording of the gentleman who rang last Sunday and he spoke about his own sorrow and concern about things, but also his desire to get on and cooperate. I mean I am personally sorry for what happened. I have said that numerous times. We have had a motion in the Parliament of deep and sincere regret. We don’t think it’s appropriate to go further than that. Now, I have made that very clear and I have said that to Aboriginal leaders on a number of occasions. I am not hiding behind this or indeed any other programme in expressing my views. But look I don’t want to be in a position of sort of ticking things off as far as reconciliation yes or no is concerned. We are committed. We will continue to talk. There’s good will on the Government’s part and I am sure there is good will on the part of people in the indigenous community.
DURANTE:
Okay, one more quick question because I think our time is running out Mr Howard. You spoke at the tree planting about your Government’s achievements, your crowning achievements, namely GST and gun control, what would you describe as your crowning achievements in indigenous issues?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think putting a greater emphasis on what I call practical reconciliation. We have shifted the emphasis toward programs that improve Aboriginal health and education, literacy and numeracy. These are things which address the disadvantage of indigenous people. The reason why, Karen, there are a disproportionately large number of indigenous people caught up in the criminal justice system is not because the laws are designed to hurt them, it’s because of disadvantage, social and economic disadvantage, a consequence of a lot of factors. What our policies are designed to do is to try and reduce that disadvantage and I think that is a very valuable goal and I think the emphasis we’ve placed on those programs is very important.
DURANTE:
The Prime Minister John Howard, in an interview we recorded with him on Friday.
[ends]