OLDS:
I am joined on line from our Parliament House studios in Canberra by the Prime Minister of Australia John Howard. Good afternoon to you sir.
PRIME MINISTER:
Hello Murray.
OLDS:
Nice of you to join us, thank you. Was this rushed out?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, we have been planning this for weeks. It was foreshadowed some time ago and it was on the Cabinet agenda and we talked about it, and I made an announcement and it's a very simple commonsense proposition. People who apply for citizenship will be asked to pass a test. They will have to demonstrate a usable grasp of English and they will be required to answer some questions about the nature of Australia, our values, some of our history; not a difficult test. But if we have enough self esteem and self belief in ourselves as a country, what is wrong with asking people who want to join the family of the nation to answer some questions about the nation that they are joining?
OLDS:
So this wasn't about, I mean the timing isn't significant; that it's designed to take the spotlight away from Kevin Rudd?
PRIME MINISTER:
It was listed on the agenda long before Mr Rudd came on the scene.
OLDS:
If that's the case, why haven't the questions been developed?
PRIME MINISTER:
We have done a lot of work on what the questions are, but we won't be subjecting anybody to the test for some months. We can't do it until the legislation is passed. We won't be introducing the legislation into parliament until the Autumn session next year. It will take some weeks for the legislation to be debated and I wouldn't think the new laws would come into operation until the second half of next year. So in those circumstances, to say that every last question had to be devised before the legislation is introduced is ludicrous.
OLDS:
I am wondering about the timeline here because there was some confusion earlier this morning. I was flicking around different stations, watching early morning television, there was some confusion, when would this test be sat by?
PRIME MINISTER:
When you apply to become a citizen.
OLDS:
So you could be here for how long?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the minimum period is four years.
OLDS:
Four years?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes and this idea that it's imposing a burden on people to expect them after four years to have some workable knowledge of English is ridiculous.
OLDS:
What about, would every family member have to pass? What if the mother passes and dad fails?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well anybody who is applying for the citizenship. Now if mum passes and dad fails, well dad can sit again.
OLDS:
So there's another chance there?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh yes, you can sit it on a number of occasions and in the end, if you can't pass it, well you won't be able to get citizenship, but you can sit in on a second and third occasion. The idea is to have about 200 questions and 30 of them will be chosen at random. And this will happen at a minimum four years after a person has come to the country; four years because that is the period, the earliest period in which you can apply for citizenship. In addition, when you do apply for citizenship, you'll be asked to sign a commitment to certain things about Australia and the same thing will apply to somebody who wants to become a permanent resident. That person will have to sign, not an identical, but a similar commitment and also for a person who's a temporary visa holder for more than a year. Now all of these things are designed to ensure that people who for periods of time, and in the case of a citizen for the rest of their life, enjoy the privileges and opportunities of this country, make a commitment to some of the essential values of the country. Now these are all very commonsense propositions. It won't result in any change in the mix of migrants coming.
OLDS:
It won't?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, because it's not designed to keep anybody out, it's designed to include everybody, integrate everybody into the national fabric.
OLDS:
Can I throw this one to you Prime Minister? Murray Olds today with Prime Minister John Howard in Canberra looking at this issue of citizenship exams. Now a fax came in from a listener today and I will just run this by you if I may. I won't identify her, but she did name herself. She says my family came out to Oz in the 50s, so she's now aged somewhere in her 50s or north of that. She's lived in Australia for around half a century. She said this in her fax Prime Minister. "What I am about to say is on most people mind, but are afraid to say it. If we close the immigration door to people whom are from the Middle East. We would not need a citizen test. No more problems either." Now this is a woman who has been here for 50 years. I am not sure where she has come from but I think it's fair to say she's not from the Middle East. She's been here, presumably through the Australian schools system and she sends a fax like this that fails a spelling test, a grammar test, basic sentence construction.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah but you can still understand what she's said.
OLDS:
But heavens above. After 50 years wouldn't you expect a better standard of the English language?
PRIME MINISTER:
But that is, with respect Murray, not a criticism of what the Government is proposing in relation to a citizenship test. That might be a criticism of the education system and...
OLDS:
It's easy to criticise...
PRIME MINISTER:
And I am second to none in criticising the lack of the three 'R's on occasions in our education system. As you know, the Government has been putting a lot of pressure on the states to lift the standards, the basic standards in our schools of literacy and numeracy and a knowledge of Australian history. So if the point you are making is that we have more work to do on the education front...
OLDS:
You are right.
PRIME MINISTER:
You are dead right. We are both right.
OLDS:
Mr Rudd says he wants to know whether or not there will be better training for the English language given and provided to migrants. The same question posed by Premier Morris Iemma, he's worried the English exam might prevent some good people from becoming Australian citizens.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well can I say to Mr Iemma, four years after coming to the country is it unreasonable to expect somebody to have a working knowledge of English? I just pose that question to him. I mean, he's just sort of being querulous because he's Labor and I am Liberal. That is silly politics.
OLDS:
He's also the son of Italian migrants...
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes.
OLDS:
And I mean, they came out from southern Italy in the 1960s.
PRIME MINISTER:
And look at how successful he has been. Doesn't that show what a wonderful country it is.
OLDS:
But you know what, I bet if his dad was asked to sit this test, his dad decided he couldn't be a railway worker because he didn't have the English necessary to fill out the application form.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't know, I mean, I don't know his dad and I am sure he's a nice man and I am not going to get into talking about the Premier's dad or indeed anybody else's dad. I am just asking your listeners to ask themselves a simple question. Is it reasonable to ask a person who wants to become an Australian citizen, having lived at least four years in this country, to have a working knowledge of English? Now that is the simple question to be asked. And the second question to be asked, the other simple question is, is it reasonable to ask those people a few basic questions about the nature of Australian society, our system of government and our way of life and our fundamental culture and values, now is that unreasonable? Do we care so little about this country that we're not even prepared to say to people who want to become part of our family, you have a working knowledge of our national language and you have a fundamental understanding of some of our values? I don't think that's unreasonable at all.
OLDS:
And if you frame it that way it's not, but I think you've got significant opposition from the likes of Petro Georgiou, from Barnaby Joyce; doesn't like it either and Mr Georgiou's saying this afternoon it'll create unusual barriers to people who want to become Aussies?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't agree with that and, you know, he's entitled to his views and we'll see what happens when the thing is debated in the Parliament. But I can tell you we're very committed to it and we'll be going ahead with it.
OLDS:
I'm fascinated to see what some of the questions might be, I mean....
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we don't want to say in advance. I mean.....
OLDS:
Name the test cricket ground in Brisbane, for example?
PRIME MINISTER:
The Gabba.
OLDS:
The Gabba, you and I know that.
PRIME MINISTER:
I know, but I'm not...who says it's going to be that. No, no come on, we're not going to...it won't be trivial pursuit and we won't sort of be asking people what is, you know, what is the record for the eighth wicket at the Waca
OLDS:
Trent Bridge in 1934...
PRIME MINISTER:
Come on, we won't be getting into any of that, or what's the name of the team that won 11 Rugby League premierships in a row?
OLDS:
That's actually Premier Iemma's team too, and I know it's yours. Let's move on because this morning some pretty significant poll news, I want to look at that if we could now. The Australian newspaper saying your preferred prime ministerial rating at a five year low, at 39 per cent, a big jump for Mr Rudd, preferred by 36 per cent of voters, up 11 per cent on the result that Kim Beazley achieved in the most recent Newspoll. You told your own caucus didn't you, it's game on now, there's a new leadership.
PRIME MINISTER:
I knew that Labor would get a bounce in the polls, that was going to happen and it doesn't surprise me in the least bit. When you have a new leader the new leader has a honeymoon, I would expect Labor to be comfortably ahead in the polls for several months and it won't be until well into next year that we'll get a better fix on how the Government and the Opposition are going. I won't be taking Mr Rudd with any degree of complacency. I have treated all of the Labor leaders I've opposed, and he's number six, with a great deal of respect and I'll be contesting him on policy issues. I'll be reminding the Australian people of the fact that we have a 30 year low in unemployment, of the economic stability and the respect and strength of this country around the world. But I regard the next election as very hard Murray, I've been saying that for two years and today's poll is no surprise to me. New leader, new interest, people say let's have a look at this bloke and that's very understandable and they'll go on doing that for some months...
OLDS:
The scale of the bounce didn't surprise you?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, nothing surprises me in politics Murray.
OLDS:
Any nervous nellies on your backbench?
PRIME MINISTER:
Haven't spoken to any yet.
OLDS:
They haven't picked up the phone.
PRIME MINISTER:
No.
OLDS:
Look, the new shadow minister for Foreign Affairs, Rob McClelland, in The Canberra Times this morning saying if Labor does get up at the next election, Australian troops out of Iraq by 2008. Given the report that was handed to the President of the United States last week, is that a reasonable timeline in your view?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Labor's policy is to bring them out now.
OLDS:
Well he's saying 2008.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but the earliest they can be in government is the end of 2007. And it's not our policy to bring them out now so he's just stating the obvious that if they were to win the next election, the earliest they could bring them out would be in a few months and that would be early in 2008.
OLDS:
Does that by way of...signalling your thoughts about the next election?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, that's stating the obvious that Labor can't win before the end of next year. Whether they win or not will not be decided by me it will be decided by 20 million Australians. But the point I am making is that if Labor were to win at the end of next year the earliest they could bring them out would be early 2008. But if they had their druthers they'd bring them out straight away. So the difference is between bringing them out straight away and bringing them out at a time that gives the Iraqis a reasonable opportunity of achieving their objectives of a stable future. Now the operation in Iraq is not going well. I accept that. But if we were to do what Labor wants to do and that is pull out straight away then the Americans and the British would be entitled to do the same and we would be handing Iraq over to even greater bloodshed and the Baker-Hamilton Report, with all its criticisms of aspects of American policy, acknowledges that fact.
OLDS:
Our guest, the Prime Minister of Australia, two quick ones if I may Prime Minister. It's 20 minutes past three. Tasmania, I am sure you like most of us woke up this morning and thought how many houses have gone?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah terrible. I spoke to the Tasmanian Premier early this morning, he was on his way to the area, and I offered him any additional help. There's already Commonwealth help readily available under natural disaster arrangements, but I said to Mr Lennon if there was any further assistance that Tasmania needed, the Commonwealth would be willing to provide it. But it's certainly a grim time for the people of that east coast community and it's a very grim time for people still in Victoria.
OLDS:
Well the Army is helping there already.
PRIME MINISTER:
The Army is helping there and I have had similar discussions with Mr Bracks and in the case of all of the states if there are areas of extra help that they need from the Commonwealth, well that would be readily available.
OLDS:
One final one and it relates to your home city of Sydney and the water supply here, the Premier Morris Iemma confirming yesterday if our dam levels here do drop below 30 per cent a desalination plant at Kurnell is up and running. Is desal the way to go in your view, Prime Minister, or do you favour more recycling?
PRIME MINISTER:
I have a preference for recycling and storm water capture. On environmental and other grounds the great water crime, if I can put it that way, of Australian cities is that you have heavy coastal rain, I mean, we have experienced that in Sydney, we all know that, and the water that falls just runs out to sea. And it's a terrible waste and we have diddled and done nothing about recycling and about storm water capture and to my mind that should have been the real priority and it remains my view. I am not saying that desalination is wrong in every situation, but I would always give a much higher priority to storm water capture and recycling.
OLDS:
Thank you very much for your time Prime Minister, it's always a great pleasure talking to you and Merry Christmas to you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Merry Christmas to you, Murray, and all of your listeners.
[ends]