BARTLETT:
Good morning Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Liam.
BARTLETT:
Nice to talk to you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Nice to talk to you.
BARTLETT:
Prime Minister your appearance at the Cole Inquiry just last Thursday, just before the Easter break, also that of your colleagues Alexander Downer and Mark Vaile, do you think the public is convinced of your Government's position?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that is a matter that ultimately people will decide in all sorts of different ways. I can only repeat the position as I outlined it before the Inquiry. And the fact that the three of us appeared, the fact that we answered questions on oath and subjected ourselves to the procedures of the Inquiry refutes the idea that this is a cover-up or a conspiracy or that we deliberately turned a blind eye to what was happening.
BARTLETT:
Yes, but do you think the voters will believe you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that is ultimately a matter for them. They should, because I told the truth.
BARTLETT:
Will they believe Alexander Downer and Mark Vaile?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I believe they should because they told the truth as well. But Liam, like all of these things that is ultimately a matter for the Australian people to decide and they will, I think, wait and hear what the Commissioner has to say in response to the Inquiry and all the witness that he's heard. But in the end, the judgements are made by the public at election time on the basis of a performance in a whole number of areas. I've answered questions truthfully. I've explained the position.
BARTLETT:
Can you understand though some voters struggling, finding it very hard to believe that the Government wasn't as questioning as perhaps it should have been, as curious as it should have been?
PRIME MINISTER:
If you look at all of the facts and you go through some of the headlines, which have been very unrepresentative of what's been given in evidence at the Cole Inquiry, I believe that it is a pattern of behaviour by AWB, that not only set out to deceive the Government but also set out to deceive the United Nations and indeed many other people and many other organisations, including a lawyer, a former Chief Justice of Australia, who AWB engaged to give an opinion.
BARTLETT:
But Prime Minister, there's a pattern from the Government too. You said that, last Thursday you said you believed your advisers had never shown you any of the 21 diplomatic cables warning that the AWB contracts might contain bribes. Mr Downer said he didn't recall seeing any of the 21 cables sent to his office and Mr Vaile's memory seems to have gone walkabout. Are we supposed to believe all of that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't accept your depiction of Mr Vaile's memory having gone walkabout, that's your description, it's not his.
BARTLETT:
Prime Minister please.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you know I'm not just going to sit here and allow remarks of that kind to be made about the Deputy Prime Minister.
BARTLETT:
Prime Minister Mr Vaile said he couldn't remember 44 times in 87 minutes.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there are circumstances in which you would give the same answer if you were asked about something in which you were involved, wouldn't you?
BARTLETT:
Well I don't know.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there you are, you see, you've actually perfectly answered my question when you said you don't know, that is precisely the answer, the type of answer for which Mr Vaile and Mr Downer have been unfairly attacked. Now come on....
BARTLETT:
Well go on ask me a question.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I mean I thought you were asking me the questions.
BARTLETT:
Well what hypothetical are you putting to me?
PRIME MINISTER:
What I am doing is demonstrating that in some circumstances it is entirely appropriate and completely the truth for somebody to say I cannot recall, because nobody has an infallible memory. I don't have a infallible memory any more than you do. But look....
BARTLETT:
No that's true, but that many times Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
When I go in to the witness box - and I've only done it once - I take an oath and I answer questions to the best of my knowledge and belief, and other people go in to the witness box and they answer questions to the best of their knowledge and belief and that happened last week. Unprecedentedly, as a demonstration of our transparency, the three of us appeared and we answered questions. Now it is for Mr Cole to make a decision, he's heard all the evidence, virtually all of the evidence, and he's going to make a decision.
BARTLETT:
But what (inaudible) in the meantime, in the interim?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think in the meantime we ought to let him do his job, wouldn't you?
BARTLETT:
Well he can, but in the interim let's talk about Mr Vaile's suitability to hold office at that level. He couldn't remember 44 times in 87 minutes, will he be seeking medical help for that?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I think that is, with respect, an unfair thing to say. Mr Vaile is a person who's doing an excellent job and he has my total support.
BARTLETT:
Prime Minister the Papuan refugee situation.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes.
BARTLETT:
The Indonesian President has warned Australia and I quote: 'Don't insult us, don't toy with us and don't deny us justice,' how will you handle that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think I'll do a number of things and will not do a number of things and that is, first and most importantly, I'm not going to get in to an exchange of words of a tit-for-tat nature with the President of Indonesia, a person who I know well and I respect a lot. Our relationship with Indonesia is a very important relationship but it's a very complex one because our societies are very different. We are a population of 20 million, Indonesia a population of between 200-300 million, the largest Islamic country in the world, a country that's only just embraced democracy whereas Australia is one of the oldest democracies in the world. We have a very open and transparent political process, Indonesia is getting used to that system. There are things that happen in Australia which are part and parcel of the way in which a democracy functions. We have people expressing views on everything, people attacking the Government on a daily basis.
BARTLETT:
He has certainly expressed his views about us, but does that indicate that bending over backwards for them in changing our refugee policy has failed to keep them happy?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we haven't bent over backwards at all. We have made some changes, if they have the consequence of making a contribution to improving the bilateral relationship, well that is a good thing. But nothing that we have done or will do is going to undermine our obligations under the refugee convention. And what has happened in relation to the 43 asylum seekers who came from Papua, was in accordance with Australian law and those people were dealt with in accordance with Australian law and I indicated to the President when I spoke to him some weeks ago now, that that was what would happen. Now...
BARTLETT:
But he's saying that makes us (inaudible) in other words we do one thing and we say another.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we are the country that practices fully an open legal system and peoples' rights are determined under the law of this country and we don't change that to suit the purposes of other countries. But let's not lapse in to a tit-for-tat kind of exchange. I understand the sensitivity of the Papuan issue in Indonesia, just as I would hope the people of Indonesia would understand that in Australia there are certain processes that are followed because of the type of country that we are. And one of the ways in which our relationship can be made better and stronger is for each country to appreciate both the things we have in common and the things we don't have common.
BARTLETT:
Will it help Prime Minister if you were to meet face to face with President Yudhoyono to sort this out?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh I think there will be a meeting at some point between the President and myself. But the way in which you deal with an issue like this is step by step and the right thing is for the head of the Department of Foreign Affairs in Australia, Mr L'Estrange to go to Jakarta and talk to people there about this whole issue and then probably after that contact between Mr Downer and Hassan Wirajuda, his opposite number in the Indonesian Government, and then after that probably contact between the President and myself.
BARTLETT:
Any idea when that might happen?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, no, and I don't think there's anything to be gained by setting deadlines. You see, people who, and I don't mean you I mean others of course, who comment on these things, can't have it both ways. You can't say you've got to handle this in a responsible, sensible, calm, mature, non-being intimidated way, but you know then say well when are you meeting him and when's the next meeting, when's the next phone call? This will take time to work through.
BARTLETT:
There have been those saying an apology is on the... might be on the agenda, but have we got anything to say sorry about?
PRIME MINISTER:
No.
BARTLETT:
And you think that at this stage Michael L'Estrange, the Departmental Secretary is senior enough?
PRIME MINISTER:
Absolutely. He's the Secretary of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. I heard one Member of Parliament from Indonesia as saying he wasn't adequate. Now in a free country like Australia people all the time pop up and say what the Government is doing is not adequate. If the Government changes its policy on the basis that every time a Member of Parliament criticised it, that we accept that it was wrong, we would be changing our policy everyday. Look it is a perfectly sensible thing if we are handle this in a orderly diplomatic fashion to have Michael L'Estrange go there first, then after that I'm sure there'll be contact between the Foreign Ministers and then at some time after that I'm sure there'll be contact between the President and myself. But this a difficult issue, it's not an insurmountable problem, it's not an insoluble one, but I'm sure we can work our way through it. But it will take time and it will take commonsense on both sides, and it will take on both sides respect for the others point of view. I respect the sensitivity of Indonesia towards the Papuan issue. Equally I ask Indonesia to accept that we have a procedure, we have a process according to our interpretation of law and we don't intend to bend and vary that because that's the code under which we live in this country.
BARTLETT:
We're talking with Prime Minister John Howard from our Canberra studio. If you'd like to ask the Prime Minister a question give us a call. 9221 1882 our number. 9221 1882. Prime Minister we'll take a quick break and come back and take some of those calls in just a moment.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[commercial break]
BARTLETT:
With the Prime Minister from our Canberra studio this morning and Prime Minister Howard let's take some calls from our listeners. Joe's on the line first up. Hello Joe.
CALLER:
Yes. Mr Prime Minister. You there? Hello?
PRIME MINISTER:
I am Joe, I'm listening carefully.
CALLER:
Well Mr Prime Minister, like a lot of Australians I think we feel we're being a little bit wishy-washy relating to Indonesia. But on another issue relating to Iraq, I am the parent of a boy who's been up in to Iraq and we've got all this AWB, but the main thing that hurts a lot of people is this. 300,000 went to a man who you sent us to war against and things aren't very good up there as it is. You know, we've gone in, occupied a country. You don't have a democracy in any occupied country, history proves that. But you sent our boys into a war and you fellas at the top should have known, and you knew and you did nothing, or you should have known and you sort of played a big part. How do you think the parents of people who have boys up there feel about you as a leader. You are responsible in lots of ways as happened, and all these denials that we hear mate, it doesn't ring true with the average Australian. And you wonder why we can't get recruits in the services mate. These boys are over-bloody-extended and you know, you, look I get a bit emotional on this and there's a lot of people that do mate but I just think that it's a rather two-faced way of going about it. Mate, we've lost a lot of credibility as a nation that we built up over 100 years with the way we stood up to be counted in everything that's happened and mate it's been thrown to the wind. I just can not, mate, I've got no time for a lot of, you know, you're the guy that's there. Like Truman used to say, the buck stops with me and you haven't done that at all. You just seem to blame everybody relating to children overboard and lots of other areas. I just think mate that for a better name, I just sort of feel it's rather cowardly. Take it on the chin and tell the truth. And mate, when I saw you in church yesterday I thought, mate, some Christian. Look what they're doing with West Papuans. Sorry mate, but that's how I feel.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Joe, I don't think anything I could say would alter your view. I'm sure that's a view that some people have. I'm sure it's not the view that a lot of people have in relation to whether they're parents of people who've served in Iraq or not. I can only tell the truth as I know it, and I have done that in relation to this issue. And the question will ultimately be resolved by the Cole Commission. And the truth of the matter is that this company was highly regarded by people on both sides of politics. It wasn't just the Government that highly regarded AWB. Back in 2002 when our wheat sales to Iraq were apparently under a cloud because of the attitude the Australian Government was taking to the Hussein regime, we were effectively being told by the Opposition to get out of the way and leave it to AWB to resolve. So there was no suspicion about AWB on the part of our opponents any more than there was on our part. Now that's the truth and I understand and respect Joe's view, and it's a view that some Australians will have. But it's not a view that all Australians will have and in the end I am accountable at the ballot box and in the end people will make a decision based on their assessment of me and the assessment of my Government. I can't do more than that. I have exposed myself to cross examination. I regularly hear people out and listen to their concerns and I can say to you, Joe, that your view is a view some hold, but may I say with the greatest of respect, it's not a view that everybody holds and in the end these things in a democracy are resolved by the collective will of the people at election time.
BARTLETT:
Joe, thanks for your call. Hello John.
CALLER:
Good morning Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning.
CALLER:
Prime Minister, President Bush has indicated he thinks that Iraq might carry on until a future presidency or future president. Do you have any hint of a timetable to bring Australian troops home?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't have any hint of a timetable in the sense that I don't know when the right conditions will exist in Iraq. We will bring our forces out when we believe that the security job can effectively be done by the Iraqis. Iraq is going through a very difficult transition to democracy. The people of Iraq have voted in the circumstances of the most fearful intimidation and risked their lives in order to exercise their democratic right in a way that we have never been challenged to do. We take our democratic rights for granted because they've never been challenged, they've always been there. The Iraqis have never had them and we have to understand and sympathise with their difficulty in coming to grips with this new system of government. But as soon as there is a situation of stability and security that can be managed by the Iraqi people and the Iraqi security forces, that is the time for our forces and the Americans and the British to come home.
BARTLETT:
All right John, thank you for your call. Hello Ken.
CALLER:
Hello.
BARTLETT:
Good morning.
CALLER:
Good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning.
CALLER:
I have a question for the Prime Minister. Good morning Mr Prime Minister. This affects me, it affects a lot of baby boomers. You want us to be self funded, yet when we put our money in property, when we sell it, you want 50 per cent of capital gains of the profit. Why is that, when you want us to be self funded?
PRIME MINISTER:
What you as an individual?
CALLER:
Yeah, as individuals.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, but do you own the property as an individual or as a company?
CALLER:
Yeah I own it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Because it will vary a bit according to what the ownership arrangement is, the rates of tax will vary.
CALLER:
Yeah, but why would you need to tax us if I couldn't put it into superannuation. I don't think you should tax us at all.
PRIME MINISTER:
So you don't think there should be any capital gains tax?
CALLER:
Pardon?
PRIME MINISTER:
You don't think there should be any capital gains tax?
CALLER:
No.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I see. Well I don't, with respect, agree that we should have a completely non-capital gains tax system. The difficulty with that is that if you don't have a capital gains tax of some description, then many people who are in a position to do so will convert their income into capital and escape tax liability all together.
BARTLETT:
Prime Minister, talking about tax liability if I may, you've been copping criticism from the Opposition over the family benefit payments that are made to, well in some cases, to the rich, specifically the Family Tax Benefit Part B which is not means tested. Do you intend to keep those payments going?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes we do and this attack by the Opposition is just the thin end of the wedge. Their proposal would save $6 million a year. Now do you think if they were in government, they would stop at that? What they would do is they would bring the level at which the means test applies down so that it would begin to hit a lot of ordinary income earners who don't regard themselves quite rightly as being rich and just like their original hit list for private schools, it would have been the thin end of the wedge for reducing support from independent schools. Say what they are proposing is the thin end of the wedge...
BARTLETT:
What are you talking about, middle income?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes look the whole idea of having a means test of this kind is to save money. Now if you have it at $250,000 a year which they are proposing, that saves $6 million a year and you are talking about a tax break that is worth several billion so to save serious money you would have to reduce from way down from $250,000 to a much lower level of income, the point at which the means test applies, in order to save any real money and the point I am making is that it might be now for campaign rhetoric purposes, apply at $250,000 but if they were to win government, they would bring it in at a much lower level and it would begin to hit a lot of people who aren't regarded as rich. But in any event, what's the logic in simultaneously saying that, as many Labor people do, that our top tax rate which after the 1st July will only apply to people earning $125,000 a year or more that that's too high, and you are talking about having an income test for people getting the Family Tax Benefit B which after all recognises the simple fact that if you've got two people earning $200,000 between them, their tax position is better that one person earning $200,000 because the couple have two tax-free thresholds, I mean what is the logic in on the one hand saying that you should have a lower tax rate for people earning a certain amount of money, but you should have a stiffer means test if you get a Family Tax Benefit... but it's a very confused proposal.
BARTLETT:
They're suggesting you should use your speech to the Menzies Institute later today to explain why you won't reform a system that pays millionaires welfare.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I tell you what, the Family Tax Benefit system will stay under this Government, it will be radically, it will be subject to radical surgery under a Labor government. They don't like the Family Tax Benefit system, but the Family Tax Benefit system has delivered unprecedented levels of tax assistance to ordinary Australian families and we won't be taking an axe to it the way Labor would if it were to win the next election.
BARTLETT:
Let's take another call this morning, Peter's on the line Prime Minister, hello Peter.
CALLER:
Yes g'day Liam, Mr Howard. Mr Howard back in 2001 on the 7.30 Report you stated that your political masters wouldn't allow you to do certain things, it was obviously a faux pas by your facial expression, then you qualified it by saying the Australian people were your political masters. So are you prepared to say here and now, that the Australian people are your only political masters?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes certainly. The Australian people are my political masters.
CALLER:
Okay I will leave it at that.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
BARTLETT:
Pretty straight forward. Thanks Peter, hello Ian?
CALLER:
Hi Liam how are you going?
BARTLETT:
Good morning.
CALLER:
Good morning John.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning.
CALLER:
I just wanted to ask you when you were planning on visiting the troops next.
PRIME MINISTER:
Visiting where, sorry?
CALLER:
The troops in Iraq.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I have been there, I have...
CALLER:
... opportunity, you know, in the next month or so do you think?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I have been to Iraq on two occasions already as Prime Minister. I went on Anzac Day in 2004 and I went again last year. If I were to go again you would understand that I wouldn't be telegraphing in advance for security reasons. As much for the security of the troops as my own, I wouldn't be telegraphing in advance when I was going, but I have been there twice already, and I certainly don't rule out going again, but you will understand my not saying when that might be.
BARTLETT:
Alright Ian thanks very much for your call. The finishing touches I presume are put to the Budget at the moment Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes they are. The Budget will be delivered on the 9th April, and it's now what the 18th, the 9th of May rather and it's now the 18th April and I don't think I am giving any secrets away to say that the Budget will be... once again delivers a surplus. By the end of this financial year, we will have no net Commonwealth debt, which is an extraordinary achievement and when you compare us with countries around the world, it's a remarkable achievement and we are in a strong financial position and the Budget will be very much committed to keeping it that way and I know how important stable interest rates are to the Australian people and we won't be doing anything in the Budget that will be putting upward pressure on interest rates, I can certainly give that assurance.
BARTLETT:
We'll wait on those details with much interest. Prime Minister, thanks very much for joining us this morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you and good luck with your new slot in Perth.
BARTLETT:
I appreciate your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]