MURRAY:
Good morning, well most Federal political leaders find themselves in WA today. Fresh from the rigours of the Federal election campaign, they're surveying the battlefield for the looming state poll. Labor Leader Mark Latham is licking his wounds and not really being held up as a vote winner for the Gallop Government, not so the Prime Minister. Mr Howard's photograph was displayed as a centrefold on a magazine story on him in the Weekend Australian newspaper. All that was missing was a staple to his naval and he's certainly the pin-up boy for Colin Barnett's Liberals at the moment. The Prime Minister joins me in the studio, he's here to talk to you, 92211882 is the number. Morning Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Paul.
MURRAY:
That was a spectacular photograph of you in the Weekend Oz.
PRIME MINISTER:
Spare me the staple!
MURRAY:
I wanted to talk to you about the state election campaign if I can start there. What does Colin Barnett need to do to win this election?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well he needs to present a positive alternative; I think there is an unhappiness with the Gallop Government. I've found moving around Australia that of all the State Labor Governments, the one that seems to have had more difficulty grabbing the hearts and minds of their various electorates has been the West Australian State Government and certainly what its done in Industrial Relations has made Western Australia a bit less attractive as a place in which to invest than it should otherwise be, although the state is doing well because the national economy is doing well. I think one of the things that your going to hear a lot about in this campaign, is how well Western Australia is doing, well that is true, Western Australia is booming but that is because Australia is booming and all states get the benefit of a strong national economy because we have very strongly integrated economy in this country. When the economy goes bad the Federal Government gets it in the neck, and rightly so, and when the economy goes well I think it's legitimate to say it's due to the strong national economic performance, very strong export industries out of South Australia, the resources strength is of great benefit to this state, the housing boom was of great benefit to Western Australia, so all of those things exist but they are the product of a very strong national economy.
MURRAY:
So does that make it harder for Mr Barnett?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's always hard to tip a government out after it's only had one term, although it did happen once here in Western Australian, the John Tonkin Government.
MURRARY:
Yeh but that was the Whitlam affect?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, it was a long time ago. It doesn't happen very often and it's quite a big ask but my sense is that the Gallop Government has not grouped, certainly the business community and particularly small business which is very important in this state and I do think the changes they've made to Industrial Relations have been particularly backward looking, this country needs to push forward in those areas, not look backwards. We are no longer a country that is dominated by union culture - there are only 17 and half percent of workers now in the private sector belong to unions. Now I'm not denying unions their place in the sun, they've got a right to recruit members, put their case, people have got a right to join unions without any interruption or intimidation and I'm not in favour of getting rid of minimum wages or things like that. I mean we don't have an extreme agenda in this area, we just have a sensible recognition that the world has changed.
MURRAY:
I just wonder whether the political landscape in Australia has changed as well. We still do have all states in Labor...
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes we do.
MURRAY:
But the result in the Senate of the Federal Election might suggest that the political landscapes changing?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well certainly at a national level the result was better then I expected. As I was saying to you off air a few moments ago, I thought we would win but I thought we might lose a seat or two in the process, I never dreamt that we would get control of the Senate. The result we got in the Senate was the best result in the Upper House since 1977 and the interesting thing about that Federal poll was that the Labor Parties primary vote was at or below the level it had been in 1996, when we came back into office, so it was a very gratifying result. But people do look at State and Federal elections differently. I think of a State like Queensland, which for the last two Federal elections has been outstandingly good for us, and in the last two State elections it's been outstandingly bad for the Liberal Party and the National Party, in those two states. The public is quite capable of saying, well this is a Federal election, we're going to vote in this way, this is a State election and we're going to look at it quite separately. Now what I'm arguing is that looking at it quite separately there is a very good case for a change of government.
MURRAY:
You brought up the question of Industrial Relations just then, the middle of next year you get control of the Senate, you can basically do what you want, you've said that you've got an Industrial agenda, that we know in particular you want to get through changes to unlawful dismissal because it affects small business, but else are you going to do? Because you really could strangle the union movement if you wanted to?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes well we don't have as a goal the strangulation of the union movement, I want to make that very clear. But people have got a right to belong to unions and unions have got a right to organise and advocate the interest of their members, that's part of a democratic society. We are not extremists but we are believers that there's a, people should have free choice and the greatest single thing that we need to do in this country in Industrial Relations is to get a better climate for small business and unfair dismissals is part of it, we want to make sure that unions have only got a right to go into the premises of a company when it's fair and reasonable they do so, we want people to have the right (small businesses in particular) to take action to protect themselves against predatory union conduct, we want to get rid of any vestiges of compulsory unionism of a de-facto kind. I mean a notorious no-ticket no-start rule still reins supreme in many parts of the construction industry and that sort of thing is quite unacceptable. They're the sorts of things we do. Now what we intend to do after the 1st of July next year is obviously to put through the legislation that we have tried to put through over the last 8 and half years and legislation that we announced in the election campaign. Beyond that we are willing to go but we're not for example proposing to abolish the Industrial Relations commission or abolish minimum wages, or make it impossible for unions to operate. I mean we are hearing a lot of talk from the leadership of the union movement that we're a bunch of extremists, we're not. We're people who support fully the right of unions to operate and people that belong to unions to organise but we don't support for a moment the situation where with fewer than 20% of Australian workers belonging to unions in the private sector, unions should effectively have a monopoly over the Industrial Relations system and that is basically what the Labor Party offered at the last election. I believe it is one of the reasons they did so poorly, I think people look to that and thought well this is 40 years out of date, this is not the modern 21st century Australia.
MURRAY:
What about the construction industry, I mean....?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we had a Royal Commission report and we intend to implement that report. And there are two states in Australia in particular where the building industry has done damage to the economy, and one of them is in Western Australia and the other is Victoria. And I mean I know this on the basis of what (inaudible) men say to me around the country. As the Prime Minister I don't care where investment goes, I don't play favourites between the states, as long as the investment occurs in Australia and as long as Australians are given a fair crack of the whip, I don't care what part of the country they live in. I don't get into that but I do listen to what people say and there's no doubt that the Industrial relations climate is less beckoning here then it is in some of other states, for example Queensland.
MURRAY:
There's a difference between State and Federal law and rights of entry and work places, which always causes problems here but would you try to override that.....?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we certainly would want to see uniform rights of entry, we don't think there should be differences, I think this is an area where as much uniformity as possible is something that we should seek to achieve.
MURRAY:
So the CFMEU will be your target?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, well I'm setting out to make it a target, I mean there is in fact a division of the CFMEU in Tasmania that found itself supporting me in the last election, I mean that was an extraordinary experience.
MURRAY:
Extraordinary photograph that's for sure.
PRIME MINSITER:
So I've got nothing against it. How should one put it, some of my best political friends are in the CFMEU but let me put it that way just, half joking of course. I'm not trying to target any particular group of men and women. What we're trying to target are practices that are harmful to Australia.
MURRARY:
Harvey Degan* actually thought that your strangest political friend in that campaign was the sheep that you (in audible) but in-fact you are, didn't you have more peculiar in last days of the campaign. They're lining up for you Prime Minister. 92211882 is our number. Joe in East Perth. The Prime Minister's listening Joe.
CALLER:
(Greeting omitted) John, I really appreciate your leadership over all these years, but the thing I want to talk to the most is about the water crisis that we're suffering in Western Australia and in other various States and I'm of the view that you should lead it from the Federal point of view and it's bigger than politics regardless that the States are run by Labor Parties. Could you look at it seriously in this State.
PRIME MINISTER
Yes. Yes, I agree with that and I think it's something that we'll cross and must cross the political divide. We did in the last campaign propose the establishment of a national water trust, initially with $2 billion in it and I've asked the States to, and others, to put to me by early next year, proposals that we might jointly fund for water projects around the country and can I say to the current Western Australian Government and if the Opposition were to form government after the election I'd say the same thing to them that we want to work with the States but naturally as the Federal Government and using money that's been raised by the Federal Government we want a say in the projects that are funded. It's not just a question of the States saying 'Well give us $500 million and ta-ta and we'll decide how we spend it'. Those days are over.
MURRAY:
You held out the prospect of independently funding water projects in WA?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes. Yes. Yes. If a proposal is put forward by a community or a local council and I'm not particularly singling out Western Australia here, I'm talking generally and there are some local government units around Australia that are certainly big enough and have enough administrative authority to propose their own projects. I think for example of the Gold Coast City Council in Queensland; it's got some ideas; I'm not saying on this program that we're going to support them, I'm just singling out as an example of what I have in mind, and also if private industry has proposals that make a great deal of sense. It's not just a question of the State Government saying 'Well, look this is our list of projects and that amounts to $500 million, please send us a cheque and we'll look after them, it's not going to work like that but we want to work very cooperatively with them.
MURRAY:
Well, I think Premier Gallop rebuffed you when you first tried to...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, he wouldn't sign the national water agreement and I thought that was foolish because what the national water agreement does amongst other things is establish security of title for water rights for primary producers, and in holding out in relation to the national water initiative he's disadvantaging the farmers of Western Australia. MURRAY: Bill in Heathridge. Good morning.
CALLER:
Good morning Mr Prime Minister. I just want to put to you, I hear you could be looking into disability pensions and that includes me. Well, before you set up your bureaucracy with you know people on great incomes and we're on very minimum, let me give you a couple of points say like mine. I go to a great doctor who's a great man and a humanitarian, understands pain and I have chronic gout from my injury, it's not the sort of gout you might have friends who've had too much of the good parts of life, this is some days I'm perfectly well for a 51 year old; other days I can't walk and once I was told to go to a place; I rode my bike and I came off because I'd taken pills and broke a rib. The question is why would you be bothering to do when we have a system as I said, see a doctor, who then go to an independent separate of social security who analyse you. Why would they set up a bureaucracy of people who are probably on great incomes and they could be going to people like us and you know, I don't understand. To me it's just mean. I mean get young people real jobs, you know? That's more to me what I think. And by the way my sons both work you know?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, sure. We don't propose to force people who can't work to work under threat of taking away their disability support pension- we're not proposing to do that. What we are recognizing is there are a lot of people on disability support pensions who don't have the sort of disabilities of which you've just spoken, who do have a capacity to work for a period of time each week and we believe that they should be encouraged to do so. Now, that's the principle and we're going to implement it in a humanitarian sensible way but there's no doubt that there are a lot of people who are on disability support pensions who could do work for a period of a week, and the idea is that they should be asked to do it for a certain period of time but obviously somebody who has no capacity to work for a substantial part of a week is not going to be affected.
MURRAY: Prime Minister, you know we're part of the national radio network through Southern Cross? PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
MURRAY:
Pressing political issue today that my colleagues on the east coast want me to get you to comment on is the mangling of our national anthem by the organizers of the New Year's Eve celebrations in Sydney. This version of 'Advanced Australia Fair' has been apparently approved by the Lord Mayor of Sydney Clover Moore, who I know you've crossed swords with recently over Christmas decorations. I'll just let you hear what they've got planned for New Year's Eve. (Murray plays the disco version of 'Advance Australia Fair')
MURRAY:
Do you have any problems with that?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, I think it sounds terrible.
MURRAY:
It's a modern interpretation you'd have to say of our great national anthem.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I have a very strong view that the national anthem should be sung and played in a way that facilitates maximum audience participation in its singing. I even have difficulty with the variations that are sometimes sung at sporting events. I mean the best way to get people to join in the national anthem frankly is to have a military band playing it and everybody singing it, because what you want to do is get everybody to sing it. Now, it was fantastic at the Olympic Games when we all just got up and sang the unadorned, unaltered, unadulterated national anthem. There were no gimmicks, we just sang the national anthem and the flag went up and everybody felt good. Now, that is what ought to happen. I think these versions...and I mean I have to say I mean I don't like that one bit there are a lot...and now that you ask me, there are number of renditions of it at recent sporting events I've been to that have really been pretty poor. You just want a straight rendition of it, I mean people they tend not to use bands any more, and they tend to get a vocalist to lead it. If you're going to have a vocalist, the vocalist has got to have a strong voice and he or she must do it in a way that doesn't, hasn't got any gimmicks but most importantly encourages and allows people to sing along. Now, nobody can sing along with that. Can you?
MURRAY:
No. No, not with that. I must say one of the things that's changes I think in terms of the national anthem over the last decade or so is our willingness to sing along.
PRIME MINISTER:
Exactly.
MURRAY:
And you see it now on sporting occasions. Once you used to see the sportsman stony faced. Now, they invariably are singing.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it really begun in a big way I think in the...twenty years ago that Wallabies team that one the grand slam, they were all encouraged by their then coach to sing it very vigorously which they did and I think that began a practice. Some teams are still a bit shy about it, but the public wants to sing it but they can't sing it if it's not easy to follow, and nobody can follow that.
MURRAY: Okay, another thumbs down to (inaudible)
PRIME MINISTER: Well, no I'm not trying...you know, but really I just think it's inappropriate...it's better not to play it. It is after all our national anthem and I don't think it should be played around with. It might be technically within the guidelines but we had a debate about this, we had a vote for the national anthem and people back in the 1970's and then it was finally declared our official national anthem I think when Bob Hawke was Prime Minister in 1984. Now, whether you like it then or not it's become widely accepted and I think people should be encouraged to sing it with great gusto, but it's got to be played in a way that enables them to do so and most of us are pretty inadequate singers at the best of times and trying to keep pace with that; I don't know about you but gee I couldn't.
MURRAY:
I like the national anthem; I even like 'girt by sea' I must say.
PRIME MINISTER: Y eah, I think it's alright, it's part of the history of this country and in the same way that you know the Star Spangled Banner and 'stars bursting in the middle' sounds...if you look at it in cold print 'Gee, that sounds...', but it's part of the history of that country and it should be treated as such.
MURRAY:
Let's try Les in Leeming.
CALLER:
Good morning Paul, and Mr Howard. How are you sir?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm very well Les.
CALLER:
Congratulations on winning the election. My question is during your elections there was a lot of emphasis, I think really from probably the other side of politics, where the word 'lie' was used a lot.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, it was.
CALLER:
Every time they talked about it and I really think that some one like yourself tries to put forward family values and it should start at home and we should all set a good example, but it really must be a concern for some people on either side of politics this word is used a lot?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I think it's used...sorry.
CALLER: And I mean we know they've got an election coming next week or in a few weeks time in WA and actually your Paul Murray pointed out something on radio last week where there was a statement made where the local government 'We're going to do some changes' and they claim that they were going to save 65 lives and things like this and Paul actually raised this issue that it couldn't be proved. Is there an umpire in this area?
PRIME MINISTER:
No. The only umpire is you, the public. The public make judgments on these things and if over a period of time they develop the view that somebody in public life is loose with the truth well they will vote against that person and if on the other hand they think allegations are unfairly made that that person tells lies, well they will vote against the people who are making the allegations. In the end you can't have an umpire. In an election campaign there is sometimes a fine line between what you might call vigorous rhetoric and a passionate explanation of your cause and some thing that is a straight lie. Now, I mean the point you make about saving 65 lies, well it is true you cannot prove that...I mean I didn't hear the context of it but it is true you can't prove that. On the other hand if you genuinely believe that a policy is going to reduce the likelihood of accidents it's perhaps not a lie to make a claim that it will save lives.
MURRAY:
The background was even from the sourced document you couldn't...it wasn't claimed (inaudible)
PRIME MINISTER:
No. No. Well, I'm sorry I didn't know that. Well, that's a fair comment.
MURRAY:
Let's talk to Freda in Wanneroo.
CALLER:
Good morning Paul and good morning Mr Howard. We were given...I'm a pensioner, I'm 74 and we were given a CPI rise of $3.50 a fortnight. I would like to know what we can buy with $3.50 a fortnight since food and everything has gone up. We don't buy clothes these days, we only buy food. You also promised I believe that a single pensioner would get $50 and a married couple $100 when you were standing for the election. Can you answer my questions for me please?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the purpose of the 6-monthly indexation is to make sure that the pension keeps pace with changes in the cost of living. Now, $3.50 a fortnight is not a large amount of money, of course it's not, bit every 6 months there's an adjustment made so you're looking in the order of $7 a fortnight plus over a yearly period and the purpose of that is to keep pace with the cost of living and how people spend that is obviously a matter for them. In relation to the amount that we promised in the election campaign, that was designed to help with bills as they came along and the whole idea of that was to ensure that on a half yearly basis once again single and married pensioner couples got $50 or $100 in order to help with the bills that came in from time to time.
MURRAY:
Thanks Freda. Prime Minister, you're announcing a new Maritime Security scheme today for Australia? How is it going to work?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes. Well, what it's going to do it to make it absolutely clear that all external maritime security issues are the responsibility of the Federal Government. We're going to establish a new joint command to be run by Rear-Admiral Crane, Russ Crane who is currently the head of Coast Watch and it will be a joint command of the Navy, the ADF and Customs. We're going to establish a 1000 kilometre, I guess you'd call it a surveillance or interception zone, and the idea is that any...for 1000 nautical miles from Australia's coast line any vehicle proposing to enter Australian ports will be required to provide comprehensive information such as ship identity, crew, cargo, location, course, speed and intended port of arrival. Now, this is something quite new. We're going to put some extra money into it but we'll also be using the existing resources of the Coast Watch and of the ADF and we're going to have some additional patrols of our offshore installations, those in the northwest.
MURRAY:
That's particularly of interest to us. You'll take over responsibility for that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we accept without argument...I mean most people probably thought we did have responsibility for that. The States will be required of course as they are now to accept responsibility for the first response to terrorist incidents inside ports, but externally it's beyond argument that that should be a national responsibility and we had a review of all the arrangements and rising out of that review is the announcement I'll be...well I guess I'm formally making it now, but I'll be saying something about it at a brief doorstop or news conference later on this morning here in Perth, but it will I think better clarify who's responsible for what but the establishment of this 1000 mile investigation zone...1000 nautical miles I'm sorry, it is nautical miles, will I think be a very, very valuable step forward.
MURRAY:
So this won't look like a coast guard that Labor was putting forward?
PRIME MINISTER:
No. No. Well, we don't need a coast guard. The Coast Watch is working extremely well. It's just a way of making doubly sure that you know who wants to come to this country and what their business is.
MURRAY: And it'll use existing Naval and Customs vessels.
PRIME MINISTER: We are going to put some more resources in but the existing vessels...You remember in the last campaign I announced here in Perth that we would be building two new Naval patrol boats, additional ones and their main job would be to patrol the installations in the north west.
MURRAY:
Prime Minister great to talk to you again. Thank you very much for your time today.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you and Merry Christmas to you and all of your listeners.
MURRAY:
Thanks a lot Prime Minister. I think the quickest half hour in radio is always interviewing the Prime Minister. 92211882 is our talkback number. Love to hear what you thought of that rendition of 'Advance Australia Fair', it's a major talking point around the nation today. [ ends]