CHRISTENSON:
John Howard, good morning to you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning. Very nice to be back in Darwin.
CHRISTENSON:
Well, I'm sure it is because the weather is terrible in Canberra and we're finding it rather chilly in Darwin.
PRIME MINISTER:
It's almost a heat wave.
CHRISTENSON:
It's a heat wave for you but you've been greeted with the news of the crocs wandering around the main street?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I thought that was just so Darwin.
CHRISTENSON:
Well, we thought we'd concentrate on local issues this morning unless you want to...
PRIME MINISTER:
With one of the local products...
CHRISTENSON:
Indeed, unless you want to announce the date for the election?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I'm a long way from deciding that but you can ask me any questions you like. I don't pretend to be an expert on every street and nook and cranny, but I've got a rough idea of what goes on in this place. David Tollner keeps me very well informed.
CHRISTENSON:
Are you happy to take calls from our listeners about the Territory?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I'm very happy too.
CHRISTENSON:
That's great. 8943 3113, 1800 801 840 - you know the numbers. Give us a call and put your questions and issues to Prime Minister John Howard. John Howard, what are you doing today? What's on the agenda?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I'm talking to you and then I'm talking to one of your fellow interviewers. Then I'm attending a community morning tea at the Greek club. Then I'm opening the new CLP office. Then, I think, I'm going to have a lunch with a few people, then I'm meeting some representatives of the Northern Land Council after lunch and I'll probably throw in a few more things along the way and then late afternoon I leave and go off to Brisbane. So it's a quick visit, but one that I will enjoy because I come to Darwin quite a lot in the eight and a half years I've been Prime Minister I've been a pretty regular visitor to Darwin. I was up here of course last in January for the great occasion of the completion of the Darwin to Alice Springs railway which everybody tells me as far as passengers are concerned has been a huge success, what you're putting an extra carriage on the train?
CHRISTENSON:
Well, there may even be two passenger trains a week.
PRIME MINISTER:
I think that is wonderful and it doesn't surprise me. It was an act of faith in a way to back the railway. If you looked at the straight economics of it, if you listened to the bean counters they all said, no you must not do it. But I took the view sometime ago that this was one of those things that a Federal Government should be prepared to back and we'd talked about it for 100 years and I was determined that my Government was the Federal Government that would finally tip it in the right direction and it's happened and it will be a great boon for the Territory and as the years go by people will look back and say well whatever the economics may have appeared at the time it was the right decision to take and it was a visionary decision in the long term interests of the Territory.
CHRISTENSON:
Well it certainly was fantastic for tourism as you say, with the Ghan.
PRIME MINISTER:
This time of the year of course the Territory is very popular with tourists because of the weather and it's just great that it's been so successful and I'm very happy for the people of the Territory.
CHRISTENSON:
What about the freight side? Not such a great success, particularly in terms of exports and there was an article in the Weekend Australian saying...
PRIME MINISTER:
I read that article, yes.
CHRISTSENSON:
... the cost of rail freight to Singapore, with the land-sea bridge compared to sea transport from Adelaide to Singapore was incomparable. $700 by sea from Adelaide to Singapore and over $2,000 from Adelaide to Darwin on the railway?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I read that article.
CHRISTENSON:
Does that concern you, I mean, given that the main focus of the railway was to provide cheaper freights?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the focus of the railway was both freight and tourism. Not one to the exclusion of the other. Over time I would expect that comparison in relation to freight to improve. But I never argue and I don't think anybody argues that you'd have a break even situation from the very beginning. This is a long term investment and something that over the years ahead will gradually become a lot more economic and I have no doubt that that will turn out to be the case. But it doesn't surprise me that in the early months you can make those sort of comparisons, I don't mean you personally, but people who analyse it can make those sorts of comparisons.
CHRISTENSON:
Let's talk about the prospects of military training facilities in the Territory with the agreement made ten days ago. One of your great political skills, John Howard, is reading the mood of the electorate - what do you make of this local reaction to the announcement about the joint training facilities?
CALLER:
I reckon it's actually a backdoor base.
CALLER:
The Americans spell overpaid, over sexed and over here.
CALLER:
The girls love a Yank don't they? We've had some bad experiences in the past in areas of the world where there's been large contingents of American troops.
CALLER:
Yeah, I don't like the idea of American military coming and training on our soil to bomb innocent people and whatever they're planning to do overseas. Our defence force should be just that, a defence force not an offence force.
CALLER:
In view of the infringements against human rights that have happened in Iraq. It is very important that they benefit from the wonderful training that our guys have. But I think, not exclusively America but for all of our allies.
CALLER:
Does this mean that we'd become more of a target.
CALLER:
I think clearly that the people of the Northern Territory should have been consulted about something so important as people coming in and occupying our land.
CALLER:
For heaven's sake. Wake up. They are getting thrown out of everywhere in the world, America, and they walk into another country, just take over and we're saying oh come here, please give us your dollars, give us your dollars.
CHRISTENSON:
Prime Minister, that was just a snapshot of the talkback calls we had when that announcement was made, it was unprecedented reaction in all the years I've worked in radio to any issue. What do you make of that? Of people's concerns about the fact that we might become a target and the lack of consultation?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'd make a couple of observations, that may have been a snapshot of the people who rang the ABC, I don't regard it as a representative sample of opinion in the Territory or indeed in Australia. We're talking here about joint training facilities and my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong - my understanding is that the local Territory Government is very much in favour of the proposal?
CHRISTENSON:
They certainly are. They say it's going to be a big boost to the economy.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well...
CHRISTENSON:
But, local business and even...
PRIME MINISTER:
Can I just finish, ...The proposal is for joint training facilities - do I think it's a great idea? Yes, I do. I think it's a good idea from the point of view of the economy of the Territory. I think it's a good idea from the point of view of our military capacity. We're not talking here about a base, we're talking about joint training facilities. Some of those comments, of course, are of World War II vintage, the first or the second one I think about over sexed, over paid and over here. So I would say that while that may have been a cross section of the people who rang you, I don't see it as a representative sample of Territory opinion and I think it's a good decision. I welcome it and I believe that it will be of benefit in all of the areas that I've suggested.
CHRISTENSON:
Well, now you can allay some from of those views by given us the details, well some details of what's been agreed to. For instance, how many US troops will be coming here?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we haven't got down to that specificity yet. We have reached an agreement for joint training facilities and we will have further discussions about how many, what time and all that sort of thing but even when you get down to more details, what happens with these things is that you have the facility and then from time to time arrangements are made about operations and training and it's never possible to say years in advance, well in such and such a month, in such and such a year we're going to have 500 Americans here. It doesn't quite work out. It's just not practical for it to work out from that point of view. But the agreement in principle has been reached and I think it's a highly beneficial agreement.
CHRISTENSON:
But given there is no detail, isn't it reasonable that many Territorians are very concerned?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, when you say there's no detail. There will be detail before people come but...
CHRISTENSON:
It's (inaudible)
PRIME MINISTER:
...the way you do these things is you reach an agreement in principle and then as time goes by you work out the details of it. It is never possible and it is unrealistic to expect all of the details to be available from the very beginning. What you have to do is reach in principle agreement and then at a military to military level we sit down and work out some more details and those details will of course be made available. But you're talking here about people coming for joint training exercises. Now, whilst I respect the fact that there are a lot of people in the community who are just unalterably hostile to America irrespective of the circumstances, there are also a lot of other people who remember that America was a great friend of Australia's during World War II and without American help this country would have been overrun by the Japanese and I think it's worth saying that again because perhaps some of the younger generation have not learnt that or others have chosen to forget it and it is clearly in the interests of this country to have as an expression of our defence alliance with the United States to have joint training facilities. Now, I guess from the tone of their comments that the people whose comments you played a few moments ago are never going to alter their view, but I say, well they may be representative of the people who spoke to the ABC. I don't believe they're representative of the entire community but then that in the end is something for the community to make a judgment on - that's my view.
CHRISTENSON:
105.7 ABC Darwin, 783 Alice Springs. My special guest in the studio this morning, Prime Minister John Howard. What about some of the basics of the agreement Prime Minister. For instance, will US military equipment be pre-positioned here?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, once again it will depend upon what particular arrangements are made about exercises. What happens with this is that you make an agreement in principle and then from time to time you agree on carrying out joint exercises or have joint training operations and it will vary according to the exercise. If the particular exercise requires some pre-positioning the answer is yes, if it doesn't the answer is no. But, look, it is just not possible for me and I don't intend to even try to fill in the details because they haven't been agreed.
CHRISTENSON:
But surely, one of the things you must have considered is sort of what weaponry the US might want to bring.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, certainly not going to station nuclear weapons here.
CHRISTENSON:
Well, the US uses depleted uranium in its anti tank shells, Australia doesn't. Will you allow...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, obviously the operations will respect Australian protocols just as during the Iraq war we had our own independent targeting policies as far as bombing was concerned and they were different in some respects, not dramatically, but there were different in some respects from America's targeting policies. So it will be that any operations that are carried out in this country will of course respect Australian law. And secondly, respect Australian modalities and protocols with those sorts of things.
CHRISTENSON:
So no depleted uranium weapons?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, whatever the rules are in relation to that applied by Australia will be applied here.
CHRISTENSON:
Let's move on to the issue of nuclear waste, the hot topic right around the country last week. You've told states and territories to dispose of their own nuclear waste, but there's still ways for commonwealth facilities like Lucas Heights, you've suggested they could be stored on an island somewhere. Will you give Territorians a guarantee that it won't be stored in the Territory?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, what I'll say about this is that we're looking for a locale for the commonwealth waste and we've got to this ridiculous situation because the states and the territories have on the one hand said that they favour a national repository, providing it's somewhere else. We actually saw and arrangement where 12 years ago the Keating Government reached an arrangement with all of the states and the territories to have a national repository following a national search. And we found one, we found it in South Australia and the scientists said it was the right place and then the South Australian Government went flat out to prevent it being located there and because of the constitutional provisions and the power of the states they effectively have blocked it. Now what we've said as a result is that - well each state and territory can look after its own waste and the commonwealth will find a place for its own waste, we've commenced a search, I'm not in a position to say where it's going to be because we haven't completed that search. It could be onshore or offshore.
CHRISTENSON:
And it could be in the Territory?
PRIME MINISTER:
We haven't found a place and I'm not in a position to predict where it might be.
CHRISTENSON:
Two places on that Keating list were in the Territory, you've got a new list as you say. Does that include any sites in the Northern Territory.
PRIME MINISTER:
We are searching for a suitable location on commonwealth land on or offshore and I have no idea what that search will produce?
CHRISTENSON:
So you won't rule out it being...
PRIME MINISTER:
We are searching for a location and I have no idea what that search will produce.
CHRISTENSON:
It would be easy for you to put it in the Territory because you couldn't face the same opposition that you've faced say in South Australia because we're a territory and not a state.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the rights of the Territory will be no less respected than the rights of Australians in other parts of the country. We're not going to treat the Territory in a disrespectful fashion but try as you may you won't get me to say other than what is the truth and that is we haven't decided where it will be and we haven't completed the search. And all of this has been rendered necessary by the fact that the states and territory governments have adopted this attitude, yes we're in favour of a national repository providing it's somewhere else. And it has made a mockery of co-operative federalism. I'd call it unco-operative federalism not co-operative federalism.
CHRISTENSON:
16 to nine. 105.7 ABC Darwin, 783 Alice Springs. My guest Prime Minister John Howard, happy to take your calls on 8943 3133 or 1800 801 840 on this Monday morning. John Howard, if you could just put your headphones on, we've got a call from Harry Mashky who's a local business operator, a small business operator in Darwin. Harry Mashky, good morning to you.
CALLER:
Good morning Julie.
CHRISTENSON:
And you're through to the Prime Minister.
CALLER:
If I may.
CHRISTENSON:
Off you go.
CALLER:
How do you do Mr Prime Minister? My name is Harry Mashky. I am 40 years in the Territory, 34 years in business and you have your ups and downs. And my question is - that we're very much concerned with the Territory, how can we stop the exodus of people from the Territory? Because over the last here years we have declined of people not staying in the Territory anymore and it's a real concern because we have empty shops and our growth is not there where it should be.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Sir, perhaps you... to answer that question, you have to ask yourself where there are any policies that are being applied in the Territory but not in other parts of Australia that are causing that drift to take place. The general economic conditions that have prevailed throughout Australia over the last three years have been equally available in the Territory - low interest rates and the generally strong business conditions and the strong growth in employment. It may well be that there are policies that are being applied by the Territory Government which are causing people to leave the Territory. Because I can assure you from the Federal Government's point of view, so far from discriminating against the Territory, we have in fact... let me take one example to demonstrate my point. In proportionate terms, the Territory has done extraordinarily well out of the division of the GST revenue. For a territory with fewer than 200,000 people over the next five years is going to enjoy an increase of $573 million in the revenue it gets from the Federal Government over and above what it would have got if the GST had not been introduced. In other words, of all the states and territories, I don't think any has done better out of the GST than has the Territory. So if you're looking for reasons why people are leaving the Territory, perhaps they are home-grown reasons and perhaps some of your questions might be directed towards the Territory Government rather than the Federal Government.
CHRISTENSON:
Harry, just briefly, do you have any suggestions?
CALLER:
Well, I would say by growth, I think the mine industry that we enjoy is defence industry and maybe we should expand in the infrastructure of the defence not just having the people on... the soldiers here also have the maintenance work and the administration it would bring, you know, real growth to the Territory.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we certainly have continued a very high level of defence spending in the Territory and, as I was... we were talking earlier about the training facilities, that can only add to economic activity and it is one of the reasons why both the Territory Government and the Federal Government is a strong supporter of those joint training operations. But Harry, the Territory has not been short changed. In fact, the Territory has been treated extremely well and if there is a relative economic weakness, perhaps you have to look in the direction of Darwin rather than Canberra.
CHRISTENSON:
Thank you for your call, Harry. We've got Paul on the line from (inaudible) station in (inaudible). Paul, good morning to you.
CALLER:
Yeah, good morning Mr Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning.
CALLER:
I spoke with you at a function in Darwin in 2001 about the inequities of road funding to the Northern Territory road infrastructure and nothing has changed. Until self government in '78, Northern Territory roads were fully funded from Canberra and for a few years after self government we received generous financial packages. Roads then were well maintained, road funding to Northern Territory roads other than the national highways, that is the Stuart, Victoria and Barkly Highways, has been eroded over the last 15 years to the stage now where the Northern Territory road infrastructure is at crisis point and I mean crisis point. Some of these roads were funded under the (inaudible) road programme of the 60s and have now reached their use by date. They are single, they are single lane bitumen roads designed for single deck road trains and low volume tourist traffic. We now use double neck road trains and compete on this inferior roads with increasing tourist and caravan traffic. We are only eligible for Roads to Recovery funding in the incorporated areas, that is the major towns in the Territory.
CHRISTENSON:
So what's the point, Paul, what's your question?
CALLER:
Yeah, I'm just getting to the point now. In the budget, you made funding available to Northern Territory national highways which are the responsibility of the Federal Government anyway and it is in imperative that Northern Territory road infrastructure gets access to the road funding that is available to the states. I believe we have been promised $40 million over four years, that's $10 million a year, which will go nowhere. We cannot fulfil our live export orders over the summer because of our collapsing roads. So my question is - will you please inject real dollars and give an undertaking to help rebuild our road infrastructure that's in such a mess?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Paul, under the Auslink national network road funding proposal, which was announced by Mr Anderson a few weeks ago, the Northern Territory will receive $92 million over the next five years. We're going to spend $13.7 million on Tiger Brennan Drive and Berrimah Road for access to the Darwin Port, including a rail overpass, $34 million on the Stuart Highway, $20 million for a five year widening rehabilitation programme, $5.5 for replacing bridges, $4.8 for upgrading between Noonamah and Cox Peninsula Road, and $2.5 million for overtaking lanes between Katherine and Darwin. $20 million for the Victoria Highway and the Victoria River and Lost Creek area, $3 million for upgrading bridges on key freight routes, $4 million for widening and rehabilitation across the road network, $18.2 million in the current financial year to help maintain the Northern Territory Road links in the national network. Now I mention those specific things, but can I go back to what I was saying earlier? This current financial year, as a result of the GST, the Northern Territory, we're dealing here with a territory, certainly a vast land area, with a population of fewer than 200,000 people and they are going to be $113 million in this current financial year alone better off, now that is untied, unconditional money available to the Northern Territory Government. Now there has to come a point, no matter what the history of something is or no matter what the arrangements are, that if we give untied money to a state or territory it's got to carry some of the responsibility for spending that money for the benefit of the territory or the state. And there's not much point in the Federal Government giving untied money to the states and then the states and territories are turning around saying we just ignore that, we still want even more money from the Federal Government. We have responsibilities of our own, we're injecting $11.8 billion into Australia's land transport system over the next five years, we are giving record additional amounts to the states and territories under the GST, and what we're saying to the states and territories is do your job, if you want to continue to operate as part of the federation you have a responsibility to spend the money that is provided under the GST arrangement.
CHRISTENSON:
But Prime Minister, haven't you only allocated $20 million for unincorporated roads, that is roads that don't fall under the jurisdiction of a local council in the territory over the next four years and there's 9,000 kilometres of them?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but you're just taking a tiny part of the overall responsibility and the territory, I repeat, the territory is going to be $573 million better off, that is a very large amount of money. If I were saying that in Sydney or Brisbane it wouldn't relatively be such a large amount of money...
CHRISTENSON:
But that's because they don't have the roads that we have.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but look you're not talking, the point I'm making is that in relative terms the amount we're providing under the GST is very fair, very, very fair indeed and there has to be a responsibility carried by the local territory government, I mean what is it doing with all, what's it going to do with that $573 million? I mean you can't in a sense have it both ways, you can't say give us more money that we can spend according to our priorities and at our discretion but in the next breath we want you to give us more money as well for particular specific projects. I mean there comes a time where territory and state governments have got to be required to discharge their own responsibilities.
CHRISTENSON:
Six minutes to nine.
[commercial break]
CHRISTENSON:
8943 3113, 1800 801 840, the numbers to ring to talk to Prime Minister John Howard in our Darwin studio. Martin's given us a call from Humpty Doo. Morning Martin.
CALLER:
Morning Julia, how are you?
CHRISTENSON:
Good, you're through to the Prime Minister.
CALLER:
Good, thank you. Mr Howard, some time ago you passed legislation in Canberra which seriously interfered with Northern Territory politics, I refer now to the Andrews' Bill.
CHRISTENSON:
The voluntary euthanasia legislation.
CALLER:
The voluntary euthanasia legislation.
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh yes, yes.
CALLER:
Now, you denied Australian terminally ill people the freedom of choice to end their own life at a time of their choosing, and yet today you send troops into Iraq, a) to risk their lives, b) to take other human life. The death toll in Iraq now exceeds, what 1,000 Americans roughly? Possibly a few thousand Iraqis, almost as good as Saddam Hussein did.
CHRISTENSON:
What's the link Martin?
CALLER:
Well what is, why, how can he justify the ordering people to take life when he will not allow a terminally person who has only say a few weeks or months to live...
CHRISTENSON:
Have you had personal experience of this Martin?
CALLER:
Oh yes, yes.
CHRISTENSON:
In what way, tell us your story.
CALLER:
I had a former partner who had the Andrews' Act brought down on her head and she was refused permission to use the Northern Territory euthanasia laws. And she died painfully and horribly.
CHRISTENSON:
Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
Sorry, are you finished? Yes. Well, Martin, I understand this is a very sensitive issue and people feel very strongly about it on both sides and I respect your view and I can sympathise with the experience that you've had. The Andrews' Bill was allowed a free vote, it wasn't a Government measure. I voted for it, I don't walk away from that, I did, and I supported it and the majority of the Parliament, including a very large number of people on both sides voted in favour of the legislation. We took the view that an issue such as this warranted a full and open and free debate in the national parliament and I think everybody is pretty well aware of the arguments on both sides. And I know it wasn't a decision that pleased a lot of people, it was decision though that was supported by a lot of people and there's always a division of opinion on something like this. I accept that the opinion polls at the time were heavily against the stance I took but I'm always encouraged, particularly by my critics, to ignore opinion polls and to vote for things that I believe in and not for things that might be popular, and that is an example of where I voted according to something that I believed in, not according to what the opinion polls told me. So far as Iraq is concerned sir, the reality is that if Saddam Hussein had remained in power he would have continued to carry out his murderous policies, you know as well as I do that mass graves of perhaps 2-300,000 people have been discovered since he was removed from power and I will always the defend the action that I took and I believe it was right, it was based on a fair assessment of the intelligence available to us at the time, we didn't make that intelligence up and we didn't seek to heavy or influence or in any way politicise the intelligence agencies as they arrived at the advice they gave us. So I stand by that decision and I don't with respect accept the analogy.
CHRISTENSON:
Martin, thanks for your call, Prime Minister we've just got a minute to go til the news and I know you've got a busy schedule this morning. The seat of Solomon, based in Darwin, the most marginal seat in the country held by the CLP's Dave Tollner, who's part of your Coalition, how confident are you that you can retain it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Dave's been a very good member, he's worked very hard and he's been very active and very visible in the electorate, he pushes the interests of the people of Solomon in Canberra in a whole lot of areas...
CHRISTENSON:
Has he been a bit embarrassing at times...
PRIME MINISTER:
Look I think Dave, look none us of is perfect so let's sort of not start talking about that, none of us is perfect. I think he has been a very forthright and energetic spokesman for the people of this area. Is it hard? Of course it is, any seat that's held by 30 or 40 votes is very, very hard indeed, but we have a good story to tell, a story of the Territory benefiting from the strong growth, strong business conditions, the rise in employment, the low inflation, the improvements to Medicare, the $573 million extra under the GST arrangements that the territory is getting. So I think we have a very good story to tell.
CHRISTENSON:
John Howard, thanks for your time, thanks for coming in this morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.