MURRAY:
Good morning, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, Paul. Nice to talk to you again.
MURRAY:
Yeah, very nice to have you on the line sir. Are you turning this question of Mark Latham calling for the troops to be pulled out Iraq by Christmas, are you turning this into a, sort of do or die test of his credibility now?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I'm arguing very strongly that he's taken the wrong decision. The question of how it affects his credibility is a matter for the Australian public to decide. I don't presume to tell your listeners what assessment they should make of my opposite number, that's a matter for them but on the merits of this issue he's made a colossal mistake. It sends the wrong signal to the terrorists. He's locked himself even harder into the Christmas promise over the past 24 hours. It did appear earlier this week that he was giving himself some wriggle room. But now we have a situation where come what may, if he becomes Prime Minister he'll bring the troops home by Christmas irrespective of what the Iraqi people think, irrespective of the bad signal it sends to the terrorists, irrespective of what our American and other allies think and incidentally irrespective of what the United Nations might think, because there is always a possibility, albeit not strong that the United Nations could pass a resolution giving a general coverage to a continuation of military involvement in Iraq and in those circumstances even a country like Spain might leave their forces there. But I hear from Mr Latham that no matter what happens they are coming home. Now, that is the wrong policy for Australia, for all the reasons that I've outlined. Now, the question of how that relates to his credibility, in the end that is a matter for the commentators and for the public. But I'm interested in the merits of the issue and on the merits of the issue he is dead wrong. He's dead wrong for our country, I'm certain it will send the wrong signal. See when you have an event like Madrid and then you have the Spanish election result, any perception of reaction to a terrorist act at a political level is the wrong perception to give and the wrong thing to communicate. And right at the moment, whatever our differences might be about the original commitment - we should all be standing together and saying we will not have our foreign policy either in Government or Opposition determined by terrorist behaviour.
MURRAY:
You put the blowtorch on him by painting him as having made this decision without getting any briefings from our senior intelligence officials. It now appears he did have those a briefing from the intelligence officials, do you concede that now?
PRIME MINISTER:
The briefing he had from the intelligence officials was the briefing that quite properly a new leader of the opposition gets. Both of those briefings and he's not denied this, both of those briefings were from the respective agencies on account of the fact that he was a new opposition leader and they were essentially and this is shown very clearly in the letters that I've tabled. They were essentially briefings about the structure and the operations of the two bodies and they were authorised by me as they should be and it's entirely appropriate that the Opposition leader have them. I got them when I was opposition leader and I remember them very well. In fact, I remember getting a briefing on some aspects on defence things directly from Kim Beazley when he was Defence Minister in the Hawke Government and it's a perfectly normal thing and what plainly happened was that in the course of one of these briefings there was an incidental reference to Iraq and he's tried to blow that up into a detailed briefing on whether or not our troops should stay. But the question of whether he gets a briefing or not, it's important but it's not as important as to whether or not he's taken the right decision and whether he had a full briefing or hadn't had a full briefing wouldn't alter the strength of my criticism of his decision because it's the wrong decision, it will give comfort to terrorists. It is, I believe, unhelpful to our allies and whatever people may think about our original involvement in Iraq, we are there now and we have to say and finish the job and that was a view that the Labor Party was taking until last week. That was the view that was urged on me by Mr Rudd when he wrote to me in November of last year and urged me to send more trainers for the Iraqi army and the Iraqi police. That was a view that was urged on the Government by the Shadow Defence Minister and Mr Latham himself when he became Opposition Leader in December was asked about whether the troops should be withdrawn. He was asked by Neil Mitchell on Melbourne radio and he said well I've got to get a detailed briefing about that. And yet ... I haven't made up my mind, yet he's now maintaining it was Labor policy all along to bring the troops home by Christmas. Now, that is just ridiculous. Plainly not the case.
MURRAY:
He's now said that you've gone to the extent of pulling information from the intelligence agencies into this debate to score political points against him. He says you've now endangered lives of our personnel in the Gulf by revealing to the terrorists who of our intelligence agencies is operating in this area.
PRIME MINISTER:
I haven't done that at all...
MURRAY:
[inaudible]
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, with respect, I don't automatically...
MURRAY:
But do you regret dragging the intelligence agencies...?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that's between... Paul, the answer is - I don't regret what I did. I might remind you that the first reference to intelligence briefings on this issue was in fact made by him. I mean, he referred, he didn't name them and everybody here knows that when you talk about intelligence officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Department of Defence, everybody knows essentially who you're talking about. I mean, this idea that because he didn't use the exact names, he didn't mention that he'd had briefings, I mean that is completely disingenuous. He knows that.
MURRAY:
Prime Minister, people calling now to talk to you. I'll put you through to the first one. It's Caroline from Armidale. Good morning, Caroline, the Prime Minister's listening.
CALLER:
Yes, good morning Paul and Mr Howard. Mr Howard, I saw you on the Sunday programme being interviewed there and I copied down a quote. You were asked whether it was popular with the Australian people leaving the troops in Iraq and you said you had no idea if it was popular or unpopular. And I wondered, Mr Howard, whether you are aware that we actually pay you to know what the public are thinking? And I, along with many other people, believe that terrorism can only be addressed with equality and education, not with war. That's all I have to say. Thank you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Catherine, is it?
MURRAY:
Caroline, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Caroline, I'm sorry. What I said was that I don't know... I didn't know whether it was popular, but I knew it was right. I thought I was paid to take the right decision based on my honest belief as to what was good for Australia. I didn't believe that I was paid to take an opinion poll on every important issue before I took a decision and I certainly didn't take an opinion poll on this issue. I've never taken an opinion poll on something like this before I've reached that kind of decision, something as serious as this. I have had a strong commitment to our involvement in Iraq. I know that a lot of people disagree with me, but I've had that commitment because I believed it to be right and I think my responsibility to the Australian people is not to test whether there's 51 per cent support for something, but rather to determine in my own mind and heart whether it's right.
MURRAY:
Okay, thanks Caroline. Prime Minister, Pat from Whitford is on the line. Hi, Pat.
CALLER:
Oh, hello Paul. Good morning, Mr Howard.
PRIME MINISTER:
Hello, Pat.
CALLER:
Look, you say that it's wrong of Mark Latham to bring the troops back by Christmas. But I think it was wrong to send troops there because of weapons of mass destruction which never existed.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I understand the criticism and I respect your view. But that is the past debate. All of us are now confronted with what is the right thing to do in current circumstances. I'm arguing that you don't bring the troops back until they have finished the job. I argue that it's not the Australian way to cut and run. I argue that to bring troops home prematurely, according to an artificial deadline not based on any assessment of whether the job was being done is a mistake. It will send the wrong signal and is not in our interests. I respect the fact that many people disagreed with our original commitment. But there are many people, I know, who share your view about the original commitment but are now saying well our troops having gone there they should be allowed to finish the job and not be brought home according to some artificial imposed deadline conjured up on a radio programme.
MURRAY:
Talk of radio programmes. Mark Latham appeared on John Laws' programme today. He's saying that Shadow Cabinet made a decision some time ago about bringing the troops back from Iraq. John Laws said to him today - didn't you need to go back to Shadow Cabinet to get approval for the December deadline? Now, he was unequivocal in his answer. Do you believe he needed that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I mean, he's the master of his own processes. But the truth is that that original Shadow Cabinet decision was made in the context of the Labor Party's opposition to our original pre-positioning of troops and before the war started. I mean, what he's endeavoured to do is to conflate, to bring together a decision taken in the context of the Labor Party's original opposition to our sending troops and then pretend that he's simply acting in accordance with it. But, I mean, Mr Crean yesterday in the debate acknowledged that Mr Latham had added a deadline. He said that.
MURRAY:
And that led to the more questions...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask. I mean, there was a deadline, bringing them home by Christmas was something that he conjured up on the Mike Carlton programme. See if you look at the chain of events, decisions taken to bring the troops home before the war starts borne of the Labor Party's opposition to the troops having been sent there in the first place, we sent them earlier remember and we were criticised and right up until the war started, Mr Crean was saying they should be brought home. Well, once the war started he said well it's impossible now that they've been committed to military operations to bring them back. So we have to accept a reality. So, I mean, my argument is, and obviously I haven't seen all the minutes... and I wasn't in the room, but my argument is that the original decision was taken in the essentially pre-war context. And that seems to be confirmed by the fact that when Mr Latham is asked on the 3rd of December would he bring the troops home, that's the day after he becomes Leader of the Opposition, he turns around and he says well look I'd have to get advice on that. I can't fly off the top of my head. He didn't say, oh our position on that is very plain, we'll bring them home as soon as we get elected.
MURRAY:
So are you saying in his December deadline he's acted unilaterally here?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh, yes. Now, I'm not saying our leaders shouldn't act unilaterally. I've never.. I've acted unilaterally on occasions. I don't deny a leader the right to act unilaterally. But I think when you act unilaterally you ought to own up to it and not try and go back and ex post facto reconstruct a set of circumstances to suit your unilateral decision. Look, a party leader on occasions has a perfect right to act unilaterally. But I mean, you should at least have the decency to acknowledge it, I mean there's nothing wrong with that, I mean I think his policy is wrong and in a way all of this interesting, the central issue is whether he's right or wrong in wanting to bring the troops home before they finish the job.
MURRAY:
Yes, of course.
PRIME MINISTER:
And that's the main issue, and that is the issue that the Australian people are interested in and it's the issue that I'm concerned about. These other issues are important and they're interesting debating issues, but they don't go to the fundamental question of his very bad call.
MURRAY:
But this may actually become a more fundamental question for Australians now, (inaudible) today coming down to a real, very personal test of credibility between the two of you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well as I said at the beginning an answer to that, that is something the Australian people will make their minds up about and they will examine what I've said and they will examine what Mr Latham has said, they'll look at the facts and they'll apply their great supply of commonsense and they'll come up a conclusion and I guess I'll get the result of that conclusion some time later this year, some time into the future. But the Australian people, they'll make their mind up about that and they don't need my advice in order to do it, I'm entitled to put my case, I'm entitled to point out the inconsistency in a person saying well we've always wanted to bring the troops home by Christmas and having said the day after he's elected well I can't make a decision on that, on the run, I've got to get some advice. They'll make up their own minds about that but look Paul what I do know is this, the decision he's taken is the wrong decision and it's the wrong decision for the people of Iraq, it's the wrong decision for the reputation of Australia, it's not a helpful decision to our friends and allies and it really does send a bad signal to terrorists and they observe these things and if they think if they can get a reaction having carried out a terrorist outrage around the world they'll say well chalk that one up and we'll see what else we can do.
MURRAY:
Maureen of Kingsley is on the line for you, Maureen the Prime Minister's listening.
CALLER:
Hello Mr Howard.
PRIME MINISTER:
Hello.
CALLER:
Last week I heard on the BBC radio that Kofi Annan apologised for not doing something 10 years ago when he was the, in charge of the United Nations security that happened in Rwanda and he could have averted hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths. I believe it's a case of when evil prevails and good men do nothing. And I believe that when Australian joined the United States and Britain and some other allies in going into Iraq, you did the right thing and I wish you well.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you very much, I appreciate that.
MURRAY:
Barry in Armadale Prime Minister, go ahead Barry.
CALLER:
Hello, hello Prime Minister. When is it that all political parties are going be giving the armed forces some decent equipment instead of the outdated equipment and the obsolete equipment and less and less of it?
MURRAY:
Well Barry I think that's a bit unfair in relation to this Government, I'm not saying we've got a perfect record but I think of the decisions we've made in relation to the joint strike fighter, I think of the decisions we've made about new patrol boats, I think of the decisions we've made about tanks, I think my read out from the most recent military operation where our men and women have been involved in, namely Iraq, is that the essential day to day equipment was all that was needed, I certainly didn't have any complaints about that and I visited the forces in the Middle East earlier this year. Look I think we've tried very hard, we've put a lot of extra money into defence, we'll continue to do so, I have a very high regard for our armed forces, I think their morale is very high, I went to a gathering last night to celebrate the 83rd anniversary of the Royal Australian Air Force and the Chief of the Air Force there spoke of high morale, I think the recruitment levels are quite strong at the present time. I'm not saying everything is perfect, I'm not claiming that, and I think there's still a distance to go in relation to some accommodation issues around the country but overall I think we've tried very hard in relation to helping our men and women, they do a fantastic job and they deserve our support.
MURRAY:
Hugh in Kwinana is next Prime Minister, g'day Hugh.
CALLER:
Oh hi. Good morning Mr Howard. When you first proposed in Parliament that we were sending Australian troops to Iraq you were quizzed on the number of troops and the time involved and you said it would be months, definitely not years.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that phrase...
CALLER:
I'll just hung up and let you answer.
PRIME MINISTER:
Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, I apologise.
CALLER:
That's alright, I'll listen to you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well sir the reference to months and not years if I remember correctly was not made in Parliament, I think it was probably made at a news conference, I think in New York, it was after the war had finished. And it was at a time, I wasn't setting any deadline, at a time when everybody believed that the transition phase after the war had completed would be very speedy and the reality is that the transition has been more difficult than people might have hoped for, I acknowledge that, I think everybody acknowledges that and that's all the more reason why we should stay to finish the job but at that time I didn't say well they're going to be out by a particular date and I have always said that the time would be conditioned by circumstances on the ground, now I don't feel any embarrassment about the constant reference to that phrase, it was in the context of the immediate aftermath of the war at a time when people believed, and I was one of the them, that the transition phase would be easier than it's turned out to be. It certainly did not involve setting a fixed deadline and I've certainly always been careful to say around that time and immediately after that time that we would make decisions about the longevity of our people being there based on circumstances on the ground and if I could just add one other thing because it's been referred to in this context the air traffic controllers, Mr Latham is running this line that I've said they might be home by May or June, yes we have said that, but we've always said they might be home by May or June because by then they may have finished the job. There's no argument...
MURRAY:
... trained (inaudible)?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the Iraqis, yes. And the whole idea is that when they've trained enough Iraqis to run Baghdad airport of course they'll come home, who can argue with that? My criticism of Mr Latham is he's setting a deadline to bring forces home whether they've finished the job or not, that's where he's wrong. We are all agreed that when the job is finished they should come home, every Australian would agree with that, but what we're arguing is you don't bring them home until they've finished the job and in the case of the air traffic controllers the anticipation is that they will have finished the job by that particular time, but obviously if they haven't well they won't be able to come home at that time.
MURRAY:
Jason in Orelia is on the line, g'day Jason.
CALLER:
Good morning Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning.
CALLER:
I was ringing to congratulate you on the excellent job you've done and I'm glad that you were the leader at the time and not Simon Crean because I don't think we need weak leaders, we need strong leaders in times of conflict and it's only the fact that we'll look back in history in 10 or 15 years from now and I've realised that that was the right thing to do. So congratulations and thank you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
MURRAY:
Maureen in Queens Park, the Prime Minister's listening Maureen.
CALLER:
Hello there. I wish the PM would make his response short and sweet, so more people can get on to talk to him. However, maternity payouts at the moment. But what about the existing people Mr Howard, the existing self-funded retirees? We are living just a little beyond the pension at the moment and we seem to have fallen by the wayside. There are four... you know the interest rates have come down in the past five, seven years. Now (inaudible) our income. That's fallen. And all the damn prices are going up, up, up. So where does that leave us? I tell you what, I'm going to vote for One Nation. Are you going to look after the Australians as people here, and not send our money overseas?
MURRAY:
Do you want to respond to that Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes. I'm very sensitive to the interests of self-funded retirees. A couple of budgets ago we introduced some very generous new tax arrangements which meant that a single self-funded retiree didn't pay tax on an amount up to about $21,000 and a couple up to about $31,000 or $32,000. So I don't think we can be accused of not having tried to be sensitive to them. We extended the health card to self-funded retirees and we have done a number of other things, and we'll always keep their position in mind in framing future decisions.
MURRAY:
Stephen, Thornlie. G'day Steve.
CALLER:
Oh yes, good morning Mr Howard. How are you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Very well.
CALLER:
Mr Howard, everyone knows what a great supporter of cricket that you are...
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes.
CALLER:
... and how closely you follow the game and so on. I was wondering if you could please try and get an explanation from the head of Cricket Australia. In regards to that despicable incident in the last Test in Sri Lanka when an Australian player was clearly caught on TV doing something rather underhanded.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think I know the incident you're referring to. My understanding is that that incident was dealt with by the match referee. And much and all as I love cricket and much and all as I, like other cricket followers, have strong views about different things, I don't think the Prime Minister should be barging in and expressing a public view about things that are quite properly left in the hands of the match referee.
MURRAY:
Prime Minister, if I could just ask you - what's the future for ATSIC?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I made it very plain, well as long as some weeks ago, that I don't think ATSIC serves the interests of indigenous people and therefore my position is pretty plain. We are at the moment looking at a report that we commissioned which has been written by Jackie Huggins, a respected indigenous woman, and two other people, including a former Labor Minister Bob Collins. And when we're finished that, we'll announce our intentions. But I have made it very plain that I don't think having a separate body is a good idea. I have a very strong preference for the services available to indigenous people to be delivered through mainstream agencies. Obviously where there are pockets of disadvantage, you should have some special programmes. But I don't think the ATSIC experiment has been a success. I think it has been a huge failure. But there are certain things that I'm further constrained about in relation to legal processes, but on a policy front, my position in relation to ATSIC was made plain several weeks ago.
MURRAY:
This will raise the issue of course about Aboriginal self-determination. Mark Latham is actually talking about taking funding away, out of Aboriginal hands. Will you go that far?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we've already done that, when we established ATSIS. I mean we did this a year ago. We shifted the funding into another body that was established. And the reason we had to do it that way, because previously attempts by us to change the law have been blocked in the Senate, and we just perceived that there would never be any support for another route, and I'm interested in what Mr Latham has said. My understanding is he's proposing the abolition of ATSIC, but its replacement by some other representative body. I don't share that view.
MURRAY:
You seem to be spending almost all your time these days talking about what Mark Latham is talking about.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that's... I mean from time to time, that is the case. But on other occasions, for example the new MedicarePlus policy, I mean we've had in two of the major domestic areas over the last four months, we have introduced huge reforms in higher education. We needed the help of the independents to get that through the Senate. And everybody knows that you have to get more money into universities and everybody knows that not all of that extra money can come from the Government, and it's only fair that there be some contribution from the student who enjoys the benefit. And under our reforms, you'll still have a situation where 28 per cent only of the total cost on average of educating a student at university will be contributed through the HECS scheme, and the other 72 per cent by the taxpayer and from other private sources. And you don't start to pay that back until you earn $36,000 a year. Now that's a reform that was opposed by the Labor Party.
We introduced MedicarePlus. For the very first time, we have a safety net. If you go over $300 a year with out-of-pocket expenses, you get 80 per cent back if you're a card holder or a Family Tax A beneficiary, $700 for the rest of us. Now this is a terrific guarantee, terrific deliver of security. Now these are new measures that we've brought in. We've also for the first time negotiated with the independents the extension of some Medicare benefits for allied health professionals such as physiotherapists, and we've also lifted the payment in relation to the bulk billing of cardholders and children under 16. Now these are initiatives of the Government. It took us months to get them through the Parliament because the Labor Party just said no. Despite the fact that Mr Latham said he was going to be a constructive Opposition Leader, he just said no. And we had to negotiate, and I record my thanks to Meg Lees and to Brian Harradine and to Shane Murphy and to Len Harris, the four independents who took a more responsible position. They said well we'll support it providing you do some additional things, and we were able to do those, and full marks to them for getting those additional things. But we have had plenty on our own agenda, and in two areas that are just so important to Australians' everyday lives, we've brought in major new reforms.
MURRAY:
Okay Prime Minister, we're out of time. Thanks very much for yours today.
PRIME MINISTER:
You're welcome.
[ends]