KELLY:
Good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning.
KELLY:
More deaths in Iraq, at least 18 Italian soldiers and eight Iraqis killed and not even in the more hostile regions of Iraq. It could just as easily have been Australian soldiers and Australian aid workers in this latest attack, couldn';t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Australians in Iraq are at risk. I';ve been saying that for a long time. We take all the security precautions we are advised to take, but they are at risk and that';s something that the Government has understood and the military have understood from the very beginning. These latest deaths are just another illustration of the murderous, indiscriminate nature of the terrorist attacks that are going on, and if the rest of the world succumbs to this kind of intimidation, then that will be a signal to terrorists in different parts of the world that if you keep it up, you will eventually win.
KELLY:
Things seem to be getting worse. The CIA assessment yesterday in a report yesterday is that the guerrilla war, and I quote, ‘is in danger of escalating out of control';. It';s gaining popular support according to that report, suggesting the hearts and mind battle is being lost there in Baghdad and things need to be rethought pretty quickly by the coalition authority operating there, doesn';t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I haven';t seen that report and I don';t accept that rather gloomy assessment. And in the end, the people who are running this doom and gloom scenario, what are they saying? Are they saying that the Americans and the British and others should just get out immediately and hand the country over to chaos, to admit that the attempt to make Iraq a more democratic country, the attempt to give the Iraqi people more hope, that that has been a total failure? Now that is not what those countries are going to do, and I don';t think the majority of Australians want that to occur. It is difficult but progress is being made. The evidence is that the majority of the Iraqi people are very happy to see Saddam Hussein gone. They do not support the terror attacks. And whilst they obviously want to run their own country as soon as possible, they are glad that the Americans and the British and others acted to get rid of Saddam Hussein. I mean in the end if you criticise what is now occurring, you have an obligation to say – what is your alternative? Now the alternative of handing it over to total chaos will lead to more death, more destruction and a signal to the rest of the world that if you keep terror up long enough, it will win.
KELLY:
Well what is the right way forward though? Last night US forces in Iraq went on the offensive. There were air strikes, armoured attacks on guerrilla targets in a new get tough policy. Are you concerned that that response could increase popular support for the insurgency if the CIA assessment is right?
PRIME MINISTER:
Fran, I';m not going to give a running day to day commentary on military tactics in Iraq. I';m not qualified to do that. But I do know this, that if the Americans and the British and others were to walk out tomorrow, the death, mayhem, destruction and terror would be a hundred fold worse than what it is now. And I just say again to the critics of the Americans – if your advice had been followed, Saddam Hussein would still be in power, people would still be being tortured and murdered and raped, and more mass graves would have been created. I think those who criticise have got to accept a responsibility for advocating an alternative, and I don';t hear it yet.
KELLY:
Have you spoken recently, well obviously you';ve spoken recently to Prime Minister Tony Blair, but to President George Bush about rethinking the strategy [inaudible] perhaps speeding up the transfer of authority?
PRIME MINISTER:
Fran, I haven';t spoken to President Bush since he was in Australia and frankly there has been no need to. I understand the American strategy. The American strategy is to normalise things as soon as possible, and when you can credibly hand over to the Iraqis, you do so. If you hand over too soon and the whole thing falls apart, you';ll have more death, you';ll have more terror, you';ll have more intimidation, and people will then criticise the Americans – the same people who are criticising them now would then turn around and say oh you shouldn';t have got out as quickly. America';s critics will damn them if they do and damn them if they don';t, because they are principally preoccupied with attacking America rather than finding a solution to a very difficult situation.
KELLY:
Prime Minister, if we could move to another issue now. The Government in Australia has just admitted that the 14 Kurdish people who arrived on Melville Island last week did in fact seek asylum. The Government had previously said they hadn';t. The report is… it';s come from the Government that they were in fact identifying themselves as refugees. Shouldn';t the Government have known that before it decided to tow them off to sea and back to Indonesia?
PRIME MINISTER:
It';s quite irrelevant. I mean it doesn';t really matter. The key thing here is that at the time any so-called application for asylum might have been made, the islands had been excised. That is why the act of excision was so important and that is why the Labor Party';s opposition to excising those islands means that the Labor Party is against our policy of deterring illegal arrivals.
KELLY:
But to make a fair assessment…
PRIME MINISTER:
Fran, the point of our policy is to deter people from arriving here illegally. That';s the starting point. That';s what people have got to understand. Our policy is to say to the world – we will take 12,000 humanitarian refugees a year, we';ll have that policy, we';ll run a non-discriminatory immigration policy, but we will not have people arriving here illegally and we will act to deter that occurring. And that is what we have done, and that is the policy the Labor Party has again opposed. Because if the Labor Party';s advice had been taken and we hadn';t have excised those islands, the status of those people could well have been different. So the act of excision was absolutely crucial and the opposition of the Labor Party to that act of excision demonstrates that their policy of frustrating our deterrence policy has not changed.
KELLY:
Their position is that it';s the Australian Government that has relaxed their cordon, if you like, of surveillance around Australia.
PRIME MINISTER:
Fran their position is let them in onto the Australian migration zone and make a determination. That is the old policy. That is not a deterrent. If we';d have done that in relation to this group of people, it would have sent a signal to the rest of the world that others could do the same. And that';s why the policy of excising the islands is so important, and that is why I';m amazed that the Labor Party continues to oppose that policy.
KELLY:
What about the signal this is sending to Indonesia? A spokesperson for the Indonesian Immigration Department has accused Australia of treating Indonesia like its immigration trash can. It doesn';t suggest that the Indonesian Government is very happy about the…
PRIME MINISTER:
Fran, at a much higher level than that, the Indonesian Government knew in advance of what we were going to do and did not express any formal objection to it. The Indonesian Government, let me record, has been very helpful and very constructive and very understanding of the challenge that Australia has in this very difficult policy area.
KELLY:
And why is it more appropriate to tow these 14 people back to Indonesia than process them here?
PRIME MINISTER:
Fran, because it sends a message that people should not expect to be able to arrive willy nilly in Australia and gain access to our legal system. That';s why it';s important. I mean that has been our…
KELLY:
[inaudible] Indonesia to deal with it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Fran, that has been our policy for a long time. There';s an old saying about prevention being better than cure. What we are trying to say to the world is we will take people providing they are properly processed and determined for admission to Australia as refugees. We take more refugees on a humanitarian basis than most other countries, but we are not going to have a policy where people can arrive willy nilly and effectively obtain access to our legal system.
KELLY:
Prime Minister, thank you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.