SPEERS:
Prime Minister, thanks for your time. You were in Washington two years ago today. What is your lasting memory of that day?
PRIME MINISTER:
The shock, the disbelief and the realisation that came slowly at first but then with a rush, that this was an event that was going to change the way we lived, and that it wasn';t just another attack. It was a monstrous, audacious attack which claimed the lives of so many people and had such a blatant, cruel, ideological message. It was an attack on the symbols of the free world.
SPEERS:
Was there a sense of personal fear as well on that day?
PRIME MINISTER:
Not particularly. Everybody was there together. You don';t think about yourself. I couldn';t get out of my mind the desperation of the people who were trapped in those buildings and the sense of loss and despair of their families.
SPEERS:
Well in the two years since then, the world has certainly changed. Do you think we';re ever going to go back to the way it was, or are we in this new…
PRIME MINISTER:
You never go back to the way you were. You move on, you try and build a future that is as secure as possible. There is no point in trying to go back because you can';t. There is only ever a point in trying to build as secure and as safe a future as possible. This war against terrorism is likely to go on for years and nobody can regard themselves as beyond the reach of terrorism.
SPEERS:
How do you beat it though?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, by a long process of attrition. Nothing that is worth achieving is achieved quickly. You beat it by a combination of military means, but very importantly you need high quality intelligence. Intelligence is at the frontline of the fight against terrorism. Finding out when terrorist attacks are likely to occur is the best antidote, but it';s very hard and we should understand the mammoth challenge that our intelligence agencies have.
SPEERS:
Well coinciding with the anniversary today, we have a new tape purportedly of Osama bin Laden and his deputy. A lot of taunts on this tape, that what we';ve seen in the past have just been skirmishes, that there is worse to come. It is frightening stuff, isn';t it, to hear this and it';s not the first time we';ve heard his voice?
PRIME MINISTER:
No. I don';t know whether it';s genuine or not. The experts will tell us that, but let us assume that it is. The taunts are not unexpected. That';s part and parcel. Yes it';s frightening, but on the other hand, we have to keep a sense of perspective. We have the great challenge as a free society of protecting ourselves as best we can, but also getting on with our lives and preserving the elements of our free society in the process, because that is what the fight is all about. Terrorists hate our freedom. They hate the openness of Australian and American and world societies that act as liberal democracy, and we have to maintain those values, but by the same token take whatever steps are necessary to protect ourselves.
SPEERS:
Well this tape also urges Iraqis to rise up against the coalition forces there. Are you concerned that Iraq is becoming the new haven for terrorism?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it';s no surprise that the terrorists would try and exploit the situation because they don';t want a free Iraq. And everything that has happened in Iraq since the end of the war, the military operation, has been designed to prevent the Iraqi people having freedom. And in the process the terrorists have indiscriminately killed not only Americans, but they';ve also indiscriminately killed people like Sergio de Mello, the United Nations representative, and of course an eminent Shia leader, and more Muslims have died at the hands of terrorists in Iraq than non-Muslims. And it just drives home the point that people must understand that there is a collective enemy in the gunsights of the terrorists, and they are all people who are trying to preserve and build free societies. And whether you are Christian or Jewish or Islamic or of no faith at all, if you believe in the values of liberal democracy, then you are somebody who the terrorists are by definition against.
SPEERS:
Should the Americans in regards to Iraq be more willing to cede some power to the UN in order to get those UN countries on board in trying to boost the presence of peacekeepers in Iraq?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the Americans have put forward a proposal. I think it';s a sensible, fair one.
SPEERS:
It still means they';re in charge though, doesn';t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they';re contributing most of the troops. I mean the Americans have got 150 to 160 thousand troops. The next largest troop contingent is about 12,000 from Britain. Now in those circumstances… let me put it another way around. I can';t imagine if there were an international operation and the French had 160,000 and the next largest contribution was ten, I can';t imagine the French handing over command of the force to another country.
SPEERS:
What about handing it over to the UN?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well what the Americans have offered to do is to cooperate with the United Nations. The Americans did the heavy lifting. The United Nations, when it came to the crunch, the United Nations could not agree, and it was the Americans with the support of the British and our own contribution and a little bit of support from a few other countries, but in a military sense they were the three countries, with America and Britain providing many more than Australia but we made a big contribution. And that was where the heavy lifting was done and it';s only reasonable that the Americans should seek to have a significant say. But they want to involve the United Nations and I think they have indicated that they are prepared to see the United Nations involved to a significant extent. The degree of that involvement is I guess something that will be discussed between the Americans and the UN.
SPEERS:
Well closer to home, Prime Minister, we';ve seen in the past two years since September 11 some devastating attacks in this region – the Bali bombing most notable, of course. Is Indonesia, in your view, doing enough to fight this terrorism problem?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you can never do enough, no country can every do quite enough. I think Indonesia has massively increased its anti-terrorism effort. The co-operation the Indonesians gave in relation to the hunting down of people responsible for murdering 88 of our fellow Australians in Bali has been magnificent. They';ve done a very good job in relation to that and I want to express my gratitude to the Indonesian Government and the Indonesian police for the work they did in tracking down the Bali attackers. We need to find ways of further co-operation, particularly at a police and intelligence level. Intelligence co-operation is crucial, it';s been improved a lot and it has worked successfully already. But it';s a needle in a haystack situation trying to get enough intelligence material to stop a terrorist attack.
SPEERS:
Would you like to see Indonesia list Jemaah Islamiah as a terrorist organisation…?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, obviously, we would like to see that happen, obviously yes.
SPEERS:
Megawati Sukarnoputri, the Indonesian President, she';s not going to the Bali memorial. Do you think she has some domestic concerns there? I mean, this is a bit of a difficult balancing act for her in a way.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I don';t mind that, I don';t mind that at all, I understand that. I knew some weeks ago that she wouldn';t be coming, it was a matter for her to indicate that. She does have other people there, I will see her about a week and a half later in Thailand at the APEC meeting, she will be represented by a senior member of the Indonesian Government. It is after all a commemoration, especially of the Australians who died in that attack. Now obviously, it will be a ceremony that honours and respects the religious customs of Bali in particular and of Indonesian in general. But it is predominantly a service for Australians and I think it';s appropriate that the representation that will be there is there.
SPEERS:
I guess what I';m getting at, does the Indonesian President have to weigh up some political concerns at home when dealing with this issue?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it';s not really for me to give a political science commentary on a fellow head of government. I work very closely with President Megawati, we have a good relationship. I believe that withstanding some of the differences we had over issues such as Iraq, the relationship between Australia and Indonesia is in good shape. We are working together, we do see common enemies in terrorism in our region and I think it';s a difficult challenge to be President of such a large country, it has different influences and disparate pressures and I want to work constructively with her.
SPEERS:
On another matter of national security, your Government has this week been accused of leaking classified intelligence material. A report prepared by Andrew Wilkie before he left ONA leaked apparently to discredit him after he left. Does it concern you and have you done thorough checks that anyone in your office or the Foreign Minister';s office….?
PRIME MINISTER:
I';ve already answered a whole lot of questions on that and I';m not really going to add to anything that I';ve already said and I';ve given very direct answers. Could I just make one comment about this whole thing and that is that I respect the right of anybody to attack or criticise the Government and I defend the right of anybody who disagrees with the Government to express their views and I';m not seeking in any way to stop that occurring. Naturally though, if the Government is unfairly attacked the Government has a right to answer those unfair criticisms, but beyond that I don';t really want to go any further.
SPEERS:
But answering those criticisms, does that include briefing for example a journalist or a government backbencher…?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, no what I was talking about was some of the inaccurate statements that were made concerning the Government';s handling of the intelligence advice we received prior to the outbreak of the war against Iraq. I mean, you';ve got to remember that we';ve been accused of fabrication, of lying, of distortion and all I';m saying is that anybody';s got a right to say that but they are serious allegations and I have a right and my colleagues have a right to point out where those allegations are wrong and I guess the only other observation I make is that the material that has appeared in that article you referred to has been judged by ONA itself not to be sensitive intelligence material.
SPEERS:
That doesn';t necessarily mean the journalist wasn';t shown the report but…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I';m just making that observation, I';m not trivialising it but I';m just making that observation.
SPEERS:
One Government Senator, David Johnston, yesterday described Andrew Wilkie as unstable, possibly flaky and irrational. Should he apologise for those sorts of comments?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, you should take that up with him but they';re not views I';m expressing. I respect Mr Wilkie';s right to criticise the Government, I defend his right to do that. I don';t in anyway criticise his character. I just say that where he has said the Government has fabricated and lied, he';s wrong.
SPEERS:
And just finally, Prime Minister, next month you';re hosting two of the world';s most powerful leaders – George Bush and Hu Jintao from China, both visiting Australia. What are you hoping to achieve in those talks? I mean, clearly terrorism is going to be an issue, North Korea will be an issue I would imagine.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think the most important thing about the, as it turns out, the conjunction of those visits is that it';s the powerful rebuttal yet of this absurd proposition that our closeness to the United States has in some way degraded our relationship with Asia and particularly with countries like China. It';s a very powerful rebuttal of those criticisms and it shows how absurd and trivial and wrongly based have been the people who for some years now have said that by making our American alliance even stronger and more broadly based we are in some way weakening our ties with Asia. To use the colloquialism it is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time. You don';t have to choose, you can have both relationships and the fact that we';ve been very upfront about our relationship with America has in no way impeded our relationship with China and I regard it as a very important achievement of my Government';s time in office that we have built such an evidently strong but realistic relationship with China.
SPEERS:
Are you considering recalling Parliament to coincide with those visits to allow a special address?
PRIME MINISTER:
When I';m in a position to do so, and I have to observe courtesies to our guests, I will announce details of the two visits.
SPEERS:
Prime Minister, thank you very much for joining us on this important day.
[ends]