MAHER:
Good morning to you Mr Howard.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Louise.
MAHER:
Now your memory may be better than mine, but I think the last time you spoke to us on a local program on 666 was just after the 1996 election when I think the big issue was why you weren';t agreeing to live in the Lodge in Canberra. The world has certainly changed since then.
PRIME MINISTER:
I think I';ve been interviewed by Chris in the last couple of years.
MAHER:
But taking talkback calls from our listeners.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don';t know about that, but I have been on the program on at least one occasion since 1996.
MAHER:
Okay. Well we look forward to hearing what our listeners want to ask you a little later.
PRIME MINISTER:
Sure.
MAHER:
But some questions for you first. These revelations broadcast by the ABC. How concerned are you that two Australian Islamic leaders – one based in Sydney, one in Melbourne – have links to the top Al Qaeda suspect in Spain, Abu Dahdah.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Louise, they';re not revelations to the Government. The Government agencies have known about these contacts for some time and as indicated by the Federal Police, the two people concerned are described as people of interest to our authorities, and on top of that, the police have sought the permission already of the Spanish authorities to interview the man in Spain.
MAHER:
When did they do that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they did that a little while ago. I';m not going to say exactly when. But it';s my understanding that it had been done a little while ago.
MAHER:
That they sought permission. Have they been granted permission?
PRIME MINISTER:
We';re still waiting to hear, so I';m told.
MAHER:
Do you expect that there will be any problems with getting permission to interview Abu Dahdah?
PRIME MINISTER:
I would not think so.
MAHER:
Because we heard this morning on AM that other countries have already sent officers to speak to him and that he has answered every question that has been put to him.
PRIME MINISTER:
So therefore I don';t think there will be any problem. But I am relaying the information I have been given by the Federal Police. This is obviously in the operational control of the Federal Police, but I knew that I would get asked this question so I sought information, and that is what I have been told. I would suggest that if you as a newswoman want to get more information, then you speak to the information people at the Federal Police. But that';s the information they';ve given me.
MAHER:
Do you think it';s a matter of urgency that Australian officers talk to this man?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think it';s very important, very important indeed. But the point I want to make to your listeners is that what was on the ABC last night was not, as you described it, a revelation to the authorities.
MAHER:
A revelation to the public though.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I said to the authorities. And then the suggestion with that is that nobody knew anything about it and that the federal authorities were not doing anything about it. The reality is that they have been aware of this and they have had these people listed as people of interest now for some time. But as to the further details of it Louise, I do think that you should pursue that with the police because it is an operational matter.
MAHER:
Sure. But you as Prime Minister, can you tell us the time gap between when the Australian authorities were made aware of these links and when they sought permission to interview...
PRIME MINISTER:
I would not be able to tell you that without further checking, no.
MAHER:
Do you know?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don';t.
MAHER:
Do you think you should know?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think I should know everything that I ask. I normally expect to be told things when I ask about it, but on the way in to this interview I sought this information. Now, I haven';t had time because I said I';d be here at 10 o';clock, to get more information.
MAHER:
Okay. A parliamentary committee Prime Minister is today looking at evidence that shows Australia';s vulnerability, especially at Asian airports, with surface-to-air missiles, shoulder-propelled rocket launchers. Is this something that has been brought to your attention as a serious threat to Australia?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes. I in fact mentioned this issue several weeks ago on air and I recall at the time there was a very mild expression of concern from Qantas that I should even raise the issue, but I did raise it and I would have to agree that on my understanding of the situation, the threat of something like this is probably greater than the threat of hijacking. We have to keep it in proportion. It has been suggested by I think Clive Williams, I could be wrong about that, but I think he suggested this morning that Bangkok is the one airport where there is perhaps a greater vulnerability. I';m told this morning that there are 880 movements a day in and out of Bangkok airport, of which four are Qantas flights. I';m also told that our airlines are investigating the deployment of these decoy devices, which are employed in a very limited way around the world. I';m not saying we';re going to employ them, but that is being investigated.
MAHER:
How do they work?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they… I';m not a technician. My understanding is they have the effect of sending the missile off course so it doesn';t hit you. It sounds a pretty good idea.
MAHER:
It does, if it works.
PRIME MINISTER:
If it works, yes.
MAHER:
Sounds expensive too.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well all of these things are expensive and you';ve got to, in all of these situations you';ve got to weigh cost as well as security considerations. I mean quite literally you could send your nation bankrupt covering every conceivable possibility. You';ve always got to make a cost-benefit analysis. And this applies to things like regional airports. It applies to all sorts of things. But we';re trying, within the bounds of reasonableness and commonsense, to cover every base we can. But we do live in a more volatile world. We do live in a world where these things are threats we didn';t dream of a few years ago, but we';ve also got to get on with our lives and not become neurotic about it, so trying to achieve that balance is not always easy but we';re endeavouring in a commonsense way to do so.
MAHER:
But you';re investigating whether or not the Government should contribute to this extra security.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we are carrying out right at the moment yet a further review of aviation security issues. My understanding is that the airline, obviously with the knowledge and consent and in discussion with the Government, is looking at this decoy issue. I don';t want to put it any more strongly than that.
MAHER:
Now given the car bomb attack in Iraq over the last week or so Prime Minister, do you think there is a case for Australia providing more help to the attempts to maintain security in Iraq?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we already have about eight to nine hundred personnel in the Iraq area and we';re not in a position to provide any more.
MAHER:
Why not?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, because we have commitments elsewhere, we have very big commitments in the Solomon Islands, we still have a very big commitment in East Timor, we are not a country with a large army, we made it very clear right at the beginning, we were very upfront, I personally made this clear to President Bush and to Mr Blair and to Donald Rumsfeld the Defence Secretary that if Australia were to be involved it would be involved at the sharp end, the combat end, which we did with very great distinction, but we were not in a position to provide a large number of peacekeepers. Now we have left behind 800 or 900 personnel, for example Baghdad Airport is manned by Australian air traffic controllers and they have some forces providing them with protection, we have a small headquarters in Baghdad, that is protected, we';re providing people for the Iraq survey group which is investigating Iraq';s weapons of mass destruction capability and we have a few other people doing other tasks. But we made it very clear at the beginning that we were not in a position to provide a large number of peacekeepers because quite literally we do have ongoing commitments which consume time and personnel in our own immediate region. Now it';s a correct balance of interest and commitments for a nation like Australia to have a strong numerical capacity, if I can put it that way, in our own region, but also provide on a limited basis highly trained, highly effective and highly mobile and highly capable forces as we did in both Afghanistan and Iraq. See what we did in Iraq was the same as Afghanistan, we haven';t left a large number of peacekeepers behind in Afghanistan, in fact we haven';t left any, and we made that clear in the beginning, and that';s understood by our friends and our allies, we were quite upfront about this.
MAHER:
But given how dangerous the situation is there now you must be relieved in a way that we don';t have military…
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, Louise, I';m not using expressions like that. We made our position clear, we still have 800 to 900 people there and nobody should imagine that they live and operate in a completely risk free environment.
MAHER:
Are you confident that the United States is going to be able to resolve the situation there?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well obviously it';s difficult but I think once again you have to understand that whenever the sort of thing that occurred in Iraq does occur there is always resistance and the thing that';s come through very powerfully to me in the last few weeks, and it should come through very powerfully to everybody, is that terrorists are against Iraq having a democratic future and they don';t care who they kill in the process and this undercurrent and naivety which suggests that as soon as you get the United Nations involved the terrorist attacks will stop is completely false, they are just as hostile, the terrorists to the United Nations as they demonstrated through the tragic murder of Sergio de Mello as they are to the United States and in fact the great bulk of the people who';ve died in terrorist attacks in recent times in Iraq have been their fellow Islamic people. I mean they are the enemies of Islam, as they are the enemies of Christianity, I mean all these lessons are tragically brought home, I mean they hate anybody who wants a free open democratic future and they are just as opposed to Shiite leaders as they are to American leaders.
MAHER:
It';s 16 past 10 on 666 ABC Canberra, you';re with Louise Maher and our special guest this morning is the Prime Minister John Howard, we';ll be going to your calls soon. Just back home though Mr Howard, are you disappointed that Pauline Hanson has not managed to secure bail ahead of her appeal?
PRIME MINISTER:
Louise, I made a comment about her sentence, and I don';t in any way repeat from that comment. But I don';t think I';m going to be giving a running commentary on every facet of her legal proceedings.
MAHER:
You said in that initial comment that you thought the sentence was severe, Peter Costello, your Treasurer, disagrees with you, does that surprise you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look I';m not going to go over all of that, people are not robots, we are all individuals, although we';re members of a government, and to suggest that every single member of my government has to say exactly the same thing on every single issue is ridiculous and I have too much respect for the intelligence of my colleagues and too much respect for their individuality and we are a party that respects individuality, to suggest that on every single issue to the very last syllable we';ve all got to say exactly the same thing. We don';t run a government like that, I never have and I don';t want to.
MAHER:
So you';re agreeing to disagree on that particular issue?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, well we each answered questions and we move onto something else.
MAHER:
Okay, well let';s move onto some questions from our listeners now Prime Minister and joining us first is Tony from Reid, hi Tony.
CALLER:
Good morning to you Louise, good morning to you Mr Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Tony.
CALLER:
Good morning. Now, I have a two part question, first off what do you envisage in the near future, if there';s any role for former prime ministers given that in Australia former prime ministers tend to become overtly critical of current government policy, or made ads for spaghetti sauce and given that Jimmy Carter was arguably a more effective president under Clinton';s administration than under his own. And my second part of the question, what do you personally look for in a good spaghetti sauce?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, taste, obviously good taste. Look in relation, the first question';s a hard one for me to answer because whatever I say people will look for some hidden personal meaning in it. I would hope over time our political climate could become a little less partisan in terms of the contributions of former people, but having said that immediately I am not looking for any particular role for myself after I depart the political scene, and let me say immediately I don';t have anything particular day in mind when I say that, I just accept that nobody remains in this job forever and it';s always of course at the disposal of the Australian people. I think the parliamentary system less readily lends itself to the sort of thing that occurs in the United States, whether it';s quite as prevalent in the United States as people imagine, Jimmy Carter';s done quite a lot, but I think it';s fair to say that if you go back a number of years I don';t remember Harry Truman, who was an extremely successful President, many people would argue he was the most successful democratic President America has had since Roosevelt, he probably was, I don';t think people, I don';t remember him playing a very significant role during the Eisenhower years so maybe it';s a bit more myth than reality in the United States.
MAHER:
Do you think it';s fair Prime Minister that so much of taxpayer funds goes on looking after our prime ministers in their retirement, you know those free offices, the free secretarial support, all that free travel?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don';t think that is unreasonable, once again people will say well that';s self interested answer, but it';s not, I think somebody like Mr Hawke or Mr Fraser who';s held the position of prime minister for a long period of time, I don';t think that is unreasonable, I really don';t. I think you';ve got to have a sense of proportion, I mean on that sort of basis you can argue against just about anything but when you bear in mind that for the responsibilities they have they are not as highly renumerated as people in the professions or in entertainment or in sport, I don';t think it';s unreasonable.
MAHER:
Bob is in the Woden Valley, good morning Bob.
CALLER:
Good morning Louise, good morning Mr Howard. My question is I guess on behalf of my teenage children who are 16, 17 and 18. They';re intelligent young adults, they';re interested in the world around them, but they and their friends communicate to us feelings I guess of being let down by our politicians, feeling that they don';t actually trust politicians, that they see bad behaviour, they hear lots of rhetoric, they feel they see lots of self interest and at the same time they see so many injustices in the world and I';m just wondering Mr Howard, what do you say to these young adults to help us parents to give them some faith in the political process and in our politicians?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I would say to them that that is not a fair depiction of the great bulk of people who are in public life, most of the people I';ve meet in public life on both sides are committed, I obviously disagree with a lot of people so far as our views are concerned. My experience has been that most Federal members of Parliament in particular work very hard, that they are, as a group of people, pretty straight forward, they are representative of the community, we are constantly criticised as a class and that';s part of the Australian ethos to be agin the government or agin people in authority, that';s part of ethos. Sometimes it goes too far and sometimes it becomes counter productive. But I would point to the state of our country, it';s very easy to say well it';s riddled with injustice, if you take a more optimistic view you can say it';s a freer, more open, more decent society than most, it';s certainly a more stable country and a more socially cohesive country and a more prosperous country than most, and the experience of most young Australians I know in their twenties who travel for a year or two, as a great number of them do and then come back, is they metaphorically if not literally kiss the earth on their return because they realise how much better Australia is than any other country. Now I would say overwhelmingly that is due to the fact that Australians are very good people, but I hope in a small way political figures make their contribution and I say that generically and not just specifically in relation to my own party.
MAHER:
But people such as your Minister Wilson Tuckey don';t help do they when…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I thought that was…
MAHER:
… use their office to a personal advantage.
PRIME MINISTER:
I don';t think he got any personal advantage out of it, but…
MAHER:
He tried to get advantage for his family.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it was a foolish thing for him to do, I accept that and that is a totally valid criticism. But you don';t criticise and dismiss a whole group of people, or even an individual, we have all done foolish things in our lives, including with respect journalists, indeed everybody. Everybody does foolish things and makes errors, but you';ve got to look at the totality of a person';s contribution and the totality of the contribution of a group of people and I think sometimes that is lost sight of.
MAHER:
Caroline in Hackett, your question.
CALLER:
Good morning Louise, good morning Mr Prime Minister. Thank you very much for this opportunity, look I would like to ask about the Government';s response to some statements that were made, actually yesterday on 666 by the PNG Ombudsman stating that PNG wants more aid from Australia but there is no more corruption in PNG than there is any other country, was his words from memory. Now I certainly don';t pick on that as one isolated incident, but what I';d like, really like though, what I';m getting at is what';s the Government doing about ensuring that the sustainability of the strengthening projects that go into all our aid projects to see that money is actually used to the benefit of the people and to actually strengthen the institutions, but then that it';s maintained after the expenditure.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that';s a very good question and we are doing quite a lot. It';s no secret that we have adopted a firmer policy in relation to requiring high standards of governance and an absence of corruption in return for a maintenance of our aid, we';re being quite upfront about that. I';m not going to talk about individual countries, except to make the point, perhaps I have should have made this point in answer to the previous question, that in 102 years of Federation in this country at a federal level we have been remarkably free of corruption, both in the political process and also in the bureaucratic process. There have been some allegations and some issues but overwhelmingly the federal political system in Australia has been very free of corruption, and that is something maybe that the previous caller might tell her children, and that is in very stark contrast to many other countries, including countries that have a very long tradition of democracy. Now in relation to PNG I';m not going to talk in particular about PNG except to say that I';ve indicated to the Government that we want to talk about our aid programme in general terms. We want to talk about the need for Papua New Guinea to respond to the legitimate requests of international financial institutions about the importance of strengthening where we can in a constructive way the governance procedures in that country. Now I don';t want to put it any higher than that at this moment but…
MAHER:
Are they receptive to that Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well let me put it this way, we are in discussion but the important thing is that we are quite resolved to maintain the new approach that I articulated.
MAHER:
What efforts are being made to rebuild fences with PNG after that rebuff this week when Alexander Downer…
PRIME MINISTER:
I don';t think, I think it';s stating it too strongly to say that fences have to be rebuilt. The important thing is that we are a long standing friend of PNG, we want to continue to help the people, we want to make certain that the assistance we do give is wisely used and we obviously want to see that the people of Australia get a proper return on what after all is their money.
MAHER:
Well talking about fences being rebuilt, literally Prime Minister, the day after the fires here in Canberra you toured some of the worst affected areas, you saw the devastation. Have you had the opportunity to go back, to see how the community is rebuilding?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I haven';t physically revisited the places that I visited earlier this year, but I get very regular reports and of course I spend a lot of time in Canberra, as I am now, and I do talk to people quite a lot and we have of course provided, under the natural disaster arrangements, quite a lot of financial assistance and we';ll go on doing that. We made our first payment under the relief arrangements in June, of $3.3 million, and then as further requirements under the natural disaster arrangements are required we';ll continue to make those payments, we';re putting $7.3 million to assist in the rebuilding of the Mount Stromolo observatory, half a million dollars for tourism promotion, and $1 million to upgrade a sawmill at Hume and to enable more value added processing of timber from overseas. We';ve also put in place a programme, now finished, where earlier this year local businesses affected by the bushfires were able to apply for small grants under our $2 million small business bushfire relief programme. So, this is an addition to the money we gave of course, I think half a million dollars, to the relief appeal. I was very moved, as all Australians were, by the devastation, and I think the people of Canberra have rebuilt very effectively, and we continue at all different levels, at a bureaucratic level, as well as a ministerial level to be in very close contact with the local government here to assist.
MAHER:
In terms of future land management, there are a number of inquiries under way at the moment as to what should happen, in that area I suppose, the interface between the suburbs and the bush. Do you have any thoughts of that? I mean this is the bush capital of Australia, you';re the Prime Minister, what would you like to see happen?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there';s a couple of things, I would like to see the COAG bushfire inquiry go ahead, it was held up last Friday when I thought eight people behaved rather childishly by walking out and that meant we couldn';t talk about that and we couldn';t talk about indigenous child protection and we couldn';t talk about a national energy policy. I';ve written to the six Premiers and two Chief Ministers – or I';m sorry, I';m writing to them today – asking for confirmation that they will fully involve themselves in that COAG inquiry. Look I think there is an issue to be debated in this country about, as I think you call it, the interface between the bush and the outer suburbs. Like every other Australian, I like as many trees and as much bush as possible around and I can understand why people want to preserve that. I also understand that you';ve got to be realistic about potential fire hazards. I think you';ve got to be realistic about backburning, and you';ve got to be certain that you balance conservation with protection. And we do need a debate in this country about that, and I don';t think it should be conducted with one group on one side screaming that they';re the only people in favour of the environment, and another group saying they';re the only people in favour of effective bushfire control policies. You';ve got to have a sensible compromise and I hope that we can do that.
MAHER:
We began our discussion this morning Prime Minister with mentioning the big issue just after you were elected in 1996, and you may be sick of it but I know that there is still a lot of people in Canberra…
PRIME MINISTER:
I understand that.
MAHER:
… who wonder whether you will ever decide to move into the Lodge, and especially now that your children are growing up and leaving home.
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, my children have grown up. They';re young adults. Everybody knows more or less what their ages are. And our daughter is marrying shortly, so that';s obviously the case. Louise, I understand that a lot of people in Canberra disagree with my decision to spend more time in Sydney than any former Prime Minister. I';m not the only Prime Minister incidentally that has spent a lot of time at Kirribilli House. Quite a number of my predecessors spent extended periods of time during their prime ministership, and I';m not criticising them for that, but I don';t think anybody should run away with the idea that some of my predecessors didn';t spend quite a lot of time there.
MAHER:
Not many have been Prime Minister as long as you though Mr Howard.
PRIME MINISTER:
I do have… well one who spent quite a bit of time there was Prime Minister for quite a period of time. But look, I do have an electorate in Sydney and I therefore have reasons perhaps that one of my Victorian-born or West Australian-born predecessors mightn';t have had for therefore spending a little more time in Sydney. I divide my time between Kirribilli House and the Lodge. I think, without doing any sums on it, I would certainly spend far more days of a working week in Canberra, weekdays in Canberra, than I would in Sydney. As to the exact numbers, I don';t have them offhand. I';ll answer your question very directly. I think I';ve made a decision that enables me to do my job effectively. I must pay regard to the views of the people of Canberra, but I also respect the views of other Australians who live in different parts of our country. And I don';t find in other parts of Australia an unhappiness with the fact that I divide my time in that fashion. And of course, I spend an enormous amount of time in neither Sydney or Canberra. I spend an enormous amount of time visiting, as I should, other parts of Australia because I';m the Prime Minister of the whole country. I';m not Prime Minister of Canberra or Sydney.
MAHER:
So the answer is no.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I mean I';ve explained my position. I respect the views of people who disagree with my decision, and I just simply say to them that I do spend an enormous amount of time in Canberra. I don';t believe it has impaired my capacity to do my job. I think I have an understanding and a sympathy for the interests and needs of Canberra. I think I have demonstrated that on important occasions, and we were talking about one of them just a few moments ago. But I also have an empathy and sympathy and interest in the needs and aspirations of people who live in the big cities, as well as the smaller cities and the rural areas of this country, and I try and balance things around.
MAHER:
Prime Minister, thank you for spending so much time with us this morning. We';ve really appreciated it, and let';s do it again.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]