MITCHELL:
Mr Howard, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Neil. How are you?
MITCHELL:
Well, thank you. Pauline Hanson first. Do you have any sympathy for her?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes.
MITCHELL:
Why?
PRIME MINISTER:
I can';t make a judgement on whether the conviction itself was justified or not. You';d have to have sat through the court hearing and heard all of the evidence. But, like many other Australians, on the face of it it does seem a very long, unconditional sentence for what she is alleged to have done. And you';re dealing here with the breach of a law which is not based on something which is naturally a crime. I mean, we have created the offences of… because we';ve created a law which requires the registration of political parties – years ago we didn';t require that in this country – but I can';t really comment on whether the conviction was justified. You';d have to have sat through the hearing. And I';m not really making an observation on that. But if you ask me, like many other people, I find the sentence certainly very long and very severe.
MITCHELL:
So the punishment outweighs the crime?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don';t really want to say more than that because I';m conscious of my position, but I think I';d be a piker if I didn';t express a view on it. And that is my view. The matter will probably come to appeal and then the courts will have to deal with it. But that is my view.
MITCHELL:
It is a crime against democracy though, is it not?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well can I talk generally about the issue of registering political parties? Can I just put aside her individual circumstances? I';ve always had some reservations about whether the requirement that you register political parties as justified as necessary, but we';re stuck with it now and I';m not suggesting for a moment that it be changed. And because we have public funding of political parties, there has to be proper accountability in relation to that. But some people would see the law as being somewhat technical because after all people who donated to her political movement were donating to support a particular cause, and they probably felt that they were supporting that cause rather than a particular formal expression of that cause.
MITCHELL:
I guess the reaction I';m getting, and PM I agree with you the sentence is extreme, but when you look at the sentence, it seems out of whack with some of the other sentences that are handed out, or even the treatment of some politicians who cross the line. Would you agree with that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well some politicians have been sent to jail before. I think the reality is that by and large politicians who break the law are quite severely punished. We';ve had, you know without going into names, we';ve had two former Premiers of Western Australia sent to jail. I';m not saying they shouldn';t have been, I';m not saying they should have been, I';m just drawing people';s attention to it. I think public figures when they break the law are normally treated fairly severely. I think the idea that they';re treated more leniently than other people is not justified by historical fact.
MITCHELL:
Do you agree that Pauline Hanson changed politics in this country and that she identified a section of the electorate that rightly or wrongly felt ignored, felt that the mainstream parties weren';t relating to them?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don';t accept that all of the mainstream parties were ignorant of their concerns. I lead a mainstream political party which I think has identified many concerns of people who felt a bit shut out of the political process. But there is no doubt, and I said this at the time, that although I profoundly disagreed with many of the views she expressed, in particular her views on Asian immigration and Aborigines, and I did make that clear at the time, I did understand that what she was endeavouring to articulate were concerns of some people who felt outside the political process. And I was criticised at the time for not going in, as people said, harder, but the reason I reacted as I did was because I do understand that people in the community don';t like being told what they should believe. They like to be able to make up their own minds. And there was a whiff of elitism developing in Australian politics whereby people were in effect saying to sections of the community, well look we don';t really think you are smart enough or mature enough to have a view on these important issues – just leave it to us and we';ll make up your minds for you. Well Australians are the last people in the world to be treated like that.
MITCHELL:
Do you think this will give new oxygen to Paul Hanson';s party or in fact turn her into a martyr?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, well it shouldn';t. I don';t think Pauline Hanson';s political abilities were high. I think her policies were ill developed and she did from time time touch prejudicial elements in the community but not perhaps to the extent that many of her critics suggested and she was subjected to an incredibly ferocious and vicious series of attacks at the rally she attended. I think in fact one of the things that drove up support for her was that television footage of having to be escorted through angry mobs chanting slogans and clearly coming from some of the more radical political fringes of Australian society. It shouldn't turn her into a martyr, I don't believe that should happen. I think that would be a wholly nonsensical outcome. Do I think it's going to drive up support for her political movement? No, I don't because the public identifies that whatever may have been the desire of some of them to listen to some of the concerns that she was articulating they found on further examination that she had no solutions. It's terribly easy to, in effect, say what you think is wrong and how you think you're missing out, but you've got to propound solutions and Australians are pragmatic people and, in the end, they say well okay what's your solution? How are you going to do it better? And it was in that department that One Nation manifestly failed and deserved to be rejected by the electorate and I don't believe that's going to be revived and it shouldn't be and I would be very surprised if it were.
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister, something else - the Sports Commission is threatening funding if Shane Warne trains with the national team while he's under the drug ban. Do you think he should be training with the national team?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I think he should observe in the full the conditions of the ban and I support what the Sports Commission has done. MITCHELL:
But withholding of funding if necessary?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don't believe it will come to that but the Sports Commission is upholding the code and it's taken the right stance and I support it.
MITCHELL:
Why? It's always been your view that the cricket should be left to the cricket administrators.
PRIME MINISTER:
But we're not talking here about cricket administration, you're talking here about the vision of Government funding and the code that we support. But the cricket administrators themselves have imposed the ban, haven't they?
MITCHELL:
Well yeah, but the cricket administrators decided he could train and in fact he is training with the Victorian team.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, you've asked me my view and I've given it. I mean…
MITCHELL:
Was the Government asked to approve this line of approach?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I wasn't asked to approve it, but then I don't get asked to approve everything that… the action was taken by the Sports Commission and I back the Sports Commission.
MITCHELL:
Do you think he'll come back, Shane Warne?
PRIME MINISTER:
What, into Australian cricket?
MITCHELL:
Yeah.
PRIME MINISTER:
I hope he does because he's a great cricketer.
MITCHELL:
This will keep him out a bit longer.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there was a ban for a year…
MITCHELL:
Oh yes, but he's not going to walk in one day after the ban…
PRIME MINISTER:
I do understand that. I mean, you can't have something in relation to a ban like that and not uphold it.
MITCHELL:
You're off to the Solomons next week?
PRIME MINISTER:
I intend to visit the Solomon Islands on Monday. Why? I think it's right that I go and visit the police and the Australian military personnel and others who are there. They're doing very important work for Australia and it's important that I go there personally and say hello to them and thank them and also meet the Prime Minister of the Solomon Islands Allan Kemakeza, and Nick Warner the leader of the intervention force, and Ben McDevitt, the Federal Police and the military people. It's…
MITCHELL:
How long will you be there?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm only going for a day, I'm just going in and out on Monday. And it's just an opportunity to say thank you, well done, your country's behind you, you're doing a good job. Because it's gone so well, everybody just assumes it's a cakewalk, it's not.
MITCHELL:
Do you think it still will be long-term?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh, I think the police presence will be long-term, yes I do. We hope before too long, and I'm not putting months or weeks on it, we hope before long to see some military draw down, but the police are likely to be there for quite some time.
MITCHELL:
Calls to the Prime Minister in a moment if you'd like to speak to him - 9696 1278. Just while we're on international relations, is there any possibility that Australia will need to send more troops back to Iraq?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we don't really have a capacity to do that. We're pretty well committed elsewhere. We didn't, when we withdrew our forces we didn't precisely know that we might be needed in such large numbers in the Solomons. We have just under 800 personnel in the Iraqi area now and we certainly don't have plans to send more. We did indicate right at the very beginning, that is before the war started, that if we did become involved it would be upfront at the sharp end during the military campaign. But we did not have a capacity to provide a lot of peacekeepers on a long-term basis. Now, I made that very clear to President Bush right at the beginning and the Americans have always understood that.
MITCHELL:
It is taking longer to settle down than might have been expected, as is proven by the bombing this week.
PRIME MINISTER:
Not necessarily. I think people are making that assumption. I mean, that bombing was appalling and it indicates that the terrorists hate everybody. I'm surprised that some people have argued in newspapers and elsewhere that what that terrorist attack which claimed de Mello's life demonstrated was that in some ways there were a greater UN presence, that the terrorism would subside. I thought what that terrorist attack indicated was that they don't really discriminate, whether you're an American or an Iraqi or a Brazilian UN official, they just try and cause maximum disruption. I mean, what the terrorists are trying to do is to prevent the reconstruction of Iraq. They don't want a democratic Iraq, sure they hate the Americans and they hate the Coalition but they also hate the United Nations.
MITCHELL:
What is the significance of Chemical Ali being arrested overnight?
PRIME MINISTER:
Huge. He was regarded… broad analogy stretching back to Nazi time. He was sort of in a way the Heinrich Himler of the Saddam Hussein regime, the most feared person and somebody who was responsible for the 5000 Kurdish deaths through the use of chemical war weapons, the only recorded example, as I understand it, of the use of those kinds of weapons against civilians.
MITCHELL:
We'll take a break, come back with more for the Prime Minister, including your calls, 9696 1278.
[commercial break]
MITCHELL:
12 to nine, the Prime Minister';s with me, I have a number of things I';d to raise with him, please make your questions or comments quick. Mick, go ahead please Mick.
CALLER:
Yes good morning, I';d just like to say I sense a bit of sympathy in Mr Howard talking about Ms Hanson, but I';d also like to say a lot of people forget all the other politicians in the past, Mr Colston and Mr Russ Hinze, everybody seems to forget all the things they were doing and it seems to be a witchhunt against Ms Hanson.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well if I can make it very clear, she was prosecuted under the independent legal system of Queensland for a breach of Queensland law, the Queensland Government had nothing to do with the prosecution, it wasn';t inspired politically. I';ve read this suggestion that it was a witchhunt by the mainstream political parties, it wasn';t, my party had nothing to do with the prosecution, I didn';t seek a prosecution of her, she was prosecuted by the independent prosecution authorities of Queensland in accordance with the processes of Queensland law. And I';ve been asked what my reaction to the conviction and the sentence is and I';m giving you my honest reaction. But this suggestion that in some way there';s, you have the evil hand of the Liberal Party and the Labor Party reaching into the judicial system to bring about her conviction is just nonsense. But that doesn';t alter the fact that I react as I have expressed myself in relation to the level of the sentence.
MITCHELL:
I should mention we';ll be talking to Pauline Hanson';s son after 9 o';clock. Prime Minister, today the inquiry on the intelligence into Iraq';s weapons of mass destruction, in fact it started about half an hour ago. Are you expecting a bit of a going over there, we';ve got Richard Butler, Andrew Wilkie, kicking it off. Do you think anything will come out it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I mean I think we all know Mr Wilkie';s view, but he will give evidence and as far as Mr Butler is concerned, well I don';t think he had access to any of the intelligence material on which the Government';s assessments were based, he wouldn';t have been entitled to it and I don';t think he would have, I';m sure he wouldn';t have.
MITCHELL:
Do you think anything will come out of this?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don';t know, that';s a matter for the committee but if you';re asking me do I remain of the view that the assessment we made in relation to Iraq';s weapons capacity at the time was justified, yes. We didn';t ask that the intelligence material be distorted, I made, and my colleagues made, a bonafide judgement based on the assessments that existed at the time and in fairness to our intelligence agencies we have to keep reminding ourselves that intelligence can never provide absolute proof, all intelligence can do is to make assessments and indicate likely scenarios and possible or probable outcomes. But they can never say we are absolutely certain that the following is going to happen, I mean if you waited for that kind of assessment you';d either never get it or by the time you got it it would be too late.
MITCHELL:
If I may rather, a couple of other things quickly, the health area, is there any movement towards settling this dispute with the States? I take people getting very frustrated by this, we pay federal taxes, we pay state taxes, and then we see a health system which, well everybody seems stretched for a dollar.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think one of the problems with this whole debate is that governments and political parties, and I';m sorry to say on both sides over the years say different things at different times. The truth is that although our health system has a lot of imperfections it is still fundamentally very good, and it';s much better than the health system of any other country that has been drawn to my attention. For example in the last New South Wales election the New South Wales Premier said that health care in our system is better than it';s ever been.
MITCHELL:
Why don';t we get rid of the dual bureaucracy? Why don';t you just take it…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don';t think I';ll make a huge funding decision like that on the run Neil, I mean. Part of the problem here is the split responsibility, whenever you have split responsibility for an area of policy you always get debate and argument, but it';s a huge thing, the public hospitals system of this country have always been run by the states, and what we';ve done on this occasion is that we have offered to increase our funding by 17 per cent in real terms, it';s a $10 billion increase and we';re asking the states to match that increase and so far none of them have indicated they will.
MITCHELL:
Well we have reports today that the radiotherapy area, there';s still not enough radiotherapy for cancer patients, which is tragic.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I heard those reports, I don';t know whether that';s accurate or not, I just can';t answer that question, I haven';t had the time since I heard it to find out. But it is part of the problem that if there';s a dual responsibility and there';s a tendency that you do get exchanges, but I think we all do ourselves a disservice if you, in the name of political pointscoring, we talk down our health system and I have to admit that over the years both sides of politics have done that, particularly at a state level, and I say both parties, they have arguments over hospital waiting queues and difficulties in emergency wards and so forth. Now of course there are deficiencies but you look at the health system of the United States or the health system of the United Kingdom or Europe, I would rather get ill in this country than one of those.
MITCHELL:
$24 billion in credit card debt by Australians, does that concern you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well part of it does, the size of it, but another part of it is that people feel confident about their capacity to repay debt because they';re living in a climate of low inflation and low interest rates. We have in a sense become the victims of our own success and prosperity, this is a bit like the issue involved with house prices. One of the reasons that houses have become more valuable is that interest rates are so low people can afford to borrow more to buy better houses. I haven';t heard anybody complain about the fact incidentally that their houses are more valuable, they think that is an indication of prosperity and wellbeing.
MITCHELL:
What do you think of this black artist Richard Bell wearing a t-shirt that says “white girls can';t hump”?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it';s tasteless.
MITCHELL:
Racist?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look it';s tasteless. I prefer the old fashioned word tasteless. I think we should have more taste.
MITCHELL:
There would be outrage if it was a black person…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don';t want to get, I think that kind of thing is tasteless.
MITCHELL:
Okay. When you were a child, did you ever dress up as Superman?
PRIME MINISTER:
Not Superman no, I don';t think so.
MITCHELL:
Who were you Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
I can';t remember.
MITCHELL:
We';ve got super heroes banned in childcare centres.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that is just ridiculous, it';s like you know prohibitions in some centres of Christmas carols and all that sort of thing. I mean that is political correctness gone mad.
MITCHELL:
But you didn';t run around thinking you were Bob Menzies, do you remember…
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, probably some other person, but I don't think particularly Superman. But I certainly had plenty friends who were like that, and my own children did and we had super hero parties when our children growing up, Wonder Woman and Superman and Batman and all that sort of thing, why not? For heaven sake. I mean we are losing control of reality, I mean what is wrong with this?
MITCHELL:
I can';t see anything wrong with it. Thank you very much for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Okay.
[ends]