WOOLEY:
Prime Minister, welcome to the programme.
PRIME MINISTER:
Pleasure.
WOOLEY:
Some United States sources, indeed, the United Nations, too, are saying that North Korea is a rogue state, which mightn't be a very diplomatic thing to say to them.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, you've got to deal in reality, and it is. It gave an undertaking to the world in 1994 in return for supplies of all sorts of things not to develop a nuclear capacity. It systematically undermined and repudiated that undertaking and it is, in ideology, a bit of a standout, but that doesn't mean to say it won't, in certain circumstances, behave rationally and behave out of a sense of self interest.
WOOLEY:
Is it your assessment? Do you believe them? Do you think North Korea has a nuclear capacity?
PRIME MINISTER:
The best assessment I can make on what I've been told is that they have the material to make a few weapons, nuclear weapons.
WOOLEY:
Might it be too late to stop them?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh look, I don't think anything is too late to be stopped. Certainly not.
WOOLEY:
They're not someone we're going to invade, are they?
PRIME MINISTER:
We don't have any reason to invade North Korea. We don't want to invade North Korea. We want to live and let live.
WOOLEY:
Is interdiction a fairly tendentious thing to venture into, do you think?
PRIME MINISTER:
What we're looking at is the possibility that we might prevent shipments of WMD and so forth going from North Korea. Remember that only last Easter, the North Koreans sent the Pong Su to Australia and it landed drugs. We're dealing with something that has a certain relevance and immediacy to Australia.
WOOLEY:
Do you think that Australians are likely to be involved in this interdiction, as we say?
PRIME MINISTER:
It's too early to say. We've agreed to take part in some exercises, so if we did ultimately decide to become involved, we would be ready to do so.
WOOLEY:
That sounds like the lead-up to Iraq, where we sent troops because we might want to use them.
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't ever apologise for getting ready for contingencies and neither you should. You mention Iraq. One of the reasons that we didn't suffer casualties in Iraq was that we sent our troops early and they were acclimatised.
WOOLEY:
PM, on Iraq, while you've been away, there is growing dismay at home that you may well have misled people on the reasons for the war.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I didn't. This all centres on the speech I made on 4 February to Parliament in which I quoted a judgment of the British Joint Intelligence Committee. The British still stand by that judgment. All of this stuff about uranium from Niger hasn't altered the fact that the British relied on separate documentary and non-documentary material to support that judgment. But in any event, that particular issue was not central to the intelligence judgments about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, but for the record, what I said on 4 February remains accurate.
WOOLEY:
You stand by that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I do.
WOOLEY:
We've had weapons inspectors, now we have the American army crawling through the place. No-one has found weapons of mass destruction. No-one has found a trace of nuclear weapons.
PRIME MINISTER:
I stand by what I said on 4 February. I stand by the fact that before we entered the war, we had a very strong intelligence assessment that Iraq had a WMD capability.
WOOLEY:
If intelligence is an imprecise science, then surely anything you tell us about the next dispute, this one, for instance, in the Korean peninsula, we need to take with a grain of salt, because it's informed imprecisely?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, you don't have to take everything with a grain of salt. I'm just stating the reality that if you wait until you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it could be too late.
WOOLEY:
You told me in an interview, much like this, not very long ago on the program, that your greatest fear was that these weapons of mass destruction, and maybe even a product of the nuclear program in Iraq, would be given into the hands of terrorists. That was a frightening scenario and I believed it. I've been feeling a little misled about that, a little foolish, bit of a mug, in fact.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, you shouldn't, because that was the view I had and it remains my view, that if rogue states are allowed to retain chemical and biological weapons and, even more dangerously, nuclear weapons, there is a danger, because of their behaviour, they will get into the hands of terrorists and that could have lethal consequences for any number of countries. There's nothing false about that proposition now. There was nothing false about the proposition when I made it a few months ago and I stand by it.
WOOLEY:
It remains the truth?
PRIME MINISTER:
That argument, of course it does.
WOOLEY:
The whole truth, as they say, and nothing but the truth.
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course it does.
PRIME MINISTER:
The Prime Minister's Asian tour is part of his contribution to the war on terror, recruiting and encouraging support in the region. But it's a war that doesn't appear to be going well. During the Philippines leg of his journey, the authorities there carelessly allowed a notorious terrorist to walk out of prison and in Indonesia, a bomb exploded in the parliament building. Meanwhile, on average, an American soldier is killed every day in Iraq and there is near chaos in Afghanistan. Then news this week that Saddam Hussein appears to be alive, as probably is the man who precipitated the war on terror, Osama bin Laden. What have we gained? What progress have we made in this war on terrorism?
PRIME MINISTER:
You ask where have we got. We've certainly got rid of the Taliban and changed the regime in Afghanistan and that was the harbour from which the Al Qaeda attack on Washington and New York was launched. That's a pretty significant advance. We've removed Saddam Hussein, but, more importantly, in a sense, in all of that, is that nobody said the war against terror was going to be over quickly. I have said repeatedly a number of things, that I can't guarantee there won't be terrorist attacks against Australia or Australian citizens. What I can guarantee is that I will do my level best to reduce the likelihood and to provide protection.
WOOLEY:
On your Asian tour, from the experts and the leaders you talked with, what sort of role are they expecting Australia to play?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, they welcome Australia's role.
WOOLEY:
They think it is a legitimate interest?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we bring enormous cash aid, for example, to north Asia. We have a close relationship with Japan. We are seen, understandably, to have a very close relationship with the United States. Korea is a great trading partner. We have a good relationship with the Philippines and, very importantly, we have a strong relationship with China. China is, in many respects, the key to North Korea.
WOOLEY:
And even China thinks we have legitimate interests this far into the North Pacific area?
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course, of course. For a nation of our size, we do have a capacity to work above our weight. I won't say punch above our weight. It sounds too belligerent.
WOOLEY:
We are not punching above our weight?
PRIME MINISTER:
We are not punching, what we are trying to do is solve problems.
WOOLEY:
We are not spreading ourselves too thinly? You will return to Australia in time to see the embarkation for the Solomons?
PRIME MINISTER:
The Solomons is our patch. I'm sure the Australian people will understand if the Solomons becomes a failed state it is a haven potentially for terrorists, drug-runners and money launderers. We don't want that on our doorstep. It is in Australia's interest — forget about any other country for the moment — it is in Australia's interest that the Solomons not fail. That's why we're going to get involved and that's why we have significantly changed our policy. What we're doing in the Solomon Islands represents a very significant change in policy.
WOOLEY:
What's the good news, if any, that you come back from this trip with? Is there any ground for optimism?
PRIME MINISTER:
The very good news, well, we've won some extra coal contracts into the Philippines.
WOOLEY:
I was thinking about security.
PRIME MINISTER:
Coal — trade is jobs, is employment, is living standards, and, you know, delivering living standards of a high order to the Australian people is a responsibility of mine.
WOOLEY:
I just wanted to know, whether at this stage in our war against terrorism, whether you feel we have any more grounds to sleep more soundly, more easily, than we did a year-and-a-half, two years ago?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I've always said it would be difficult. I think what this trip has underlined to me is the continuing challenge and the continuing difficulty. It has also underlined that because of the greater cooperation between our police and intelligence agencies, we have a better basis to work with countries in our region and I have taken from visiting these three countries, the total determination of them at the highest level to work with us in the war against terror.
WOOLEY:
Are they as committed as you are to this cause?
PRIME MINISTER:
I believe they are, yes. Because they understand if terrorism is allowed to get a stronger grip in those nations where it does now have a grip, then it's bad for their future.
WOOLEY:
This is a battle that will go long beyond your tenure in politics?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm not thinking of it in my terms. I'm saying to the Australian people it is going to be a long fight. We have to keep it in perspective. We are still a very protected, stable country, but you can't, when you're dealing with a shadowy international enemy that behaves outside the normal constraints, I can't give any guarantees there won't be attacks in Australia. I would be less than honest if I tried to.
WOOLEY:
Prime Minister, thank you very much.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]