JONES:
Prime Minister, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, Alan.
JONES:
Prime Minister, what do you make of this language of vilification that continues?
PRIME MINISTER:
I find it amazing in one other respect and that is I see people saying - oh yes, we're glad that Saddam Hussein is gone. Well, I just pose the simple question - if what the coalition did was wrong according to these people, how else do they think Saddam Hussein would have been removed? What, by somebody issuing a press statement? The whole idea that you could bring about regime change, the whole idea that you could provide the hope and the opportunity for the people of Iraq that has been provided without taking the action that was taken is ludicrous. And it would be better if some of these people remained silent for their own credibility because it was a challenging operation and it is, as you say, the case that the military side of it has been quite brilliant, and it's a tremendous tribute to the leadership by the Americans but also by everybody else that have participated, including our own people who given the relatively small numbers have impressed everybody and rightly so, including of course this morning the great delivery of those medical supplies into the hospital at Baghdad - we decided to do that on Friday and we were able to witness it being delivered overnight.
JONES:
7 000 kilograms [inaudible] of medical supplies, that's a lot...
PRIME MINISTER:
Absolutely fantastic and there are two more shipments on the way. Now, this is an Australian operation, did the whole thing ourselves, it was incredibly dangerous landing at that airport and congratulations to the RAAF, in particular, for what they've done.
JONES:
I don't want to pursue [inaudible] take you once more and then we'll leave the subject. But one journalist said on Saturday about you - Howard in his own way is every bit a despot as Saddam was. How do you react to that sort of stuff?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh well Alan, I'm used to that sort of thing, particularly from some journalists, after a while you get rather inured to that kind of criticism. I thought that was pretty over the top but I don't know that I would dignify it by saying anymore.
JONES:
Simon Crean said that Australia's involvement in Iraq has made us a bigger terrorist target.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I have never supported that view. It's the view of others that what has been signalled to terrorists as a result of this action is a determination of the civilised world to go after them and to defend themselves against potential terrorist attacks. Now, I can't guarantee that there won't be further terrorists attacks - almost certainly will be somewhere in the world. And I can predict now that the next time there's a terrorist attack, the perpetrators will say it's in reprisal for what America and the coalition did in Iraq - I want to predict that right now - whether that is the case or not, that is what will be said. My own view is that in the medium to longer term what has happened has made the world a little safer from terrorism, that doesn't mean to say I can guarantee there won't be further terrorist attacks somewhere.
JONES:
But we were fed weren't we, with this diet of the fact it was going to be a bloody campaign, we're going to get bogged down...
PRIME MINISTER:
Every single major prophecy of gloom was not realised. There was not the street to street fighting; the 1100 oil wells were not set on fire; there was not millions of people displaced as refugees; there were not scud missiles fired at Israel. Now, there are four things and, whilst I don't want in anyway to sound callous because when you talk about human life the loss of one is a tragedy, the casualties on the coalition side have been mercifully light. We don't have hard information on the Iraqi side, some of the signs are that the casualties there, given the size of the Army, may have been lighter than anticipated and if that is the case then that also...
JONES:
And nothing compared with the casualties over the last 23 years of Iraqi people...
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh, well of course and the same thing with the civilian casualties.Of course there were. But you have to put that in the balance against the tens upon tens of thousands who have died in different ways as a result of this regime.
JONES:
PM, have you spoken to President Bush about the pictures of looting and anarchy that's seemed to overtaken parts of Iraq, because of course under the Geneva Convention the obligations on the occupying powers are to protect and provide for the people of the occupied country. The level of protection and provision seems to be substandard at the moment.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I haven't over the weekend, no I haven't. We talked late last week about some other things before the outbreak of that, but our view about the need to get that under control has certainly been communicated. And look, they are very aware of that, there is an obligation. The collapse of the civilian authority was so sudden and so rapid in Baghdad. There has been a vacuum. It must be remembered that this kind of thing has occurred in just about every other country where there has been a major political upheaval; it occurred in parts of eastern Europe with the implosion of communism; there are signs overnight that looting is subsiding and there are signs overnight that the American and British military are beginning patrols in partnership with some locals. Now, the problem is that the local police, many of them were very much part of the apparatus of Saddam Hussein's state and many of them have disappeared through fear of reprisals. It will be a period of considerable confusion and plundering that will unfortunately be an element. But I believe that as more and more American forces, in particular, with the arrival of the elements of the fourth infantry division get into Baghdad, the situation will come under greater control.
JONES:
It's an old part of the world though, isn't it? I mean some of the royal tombs are the richest sources of art and archaeology in the Middle East after the temple of Tutankhamen. It is important to try and preserve these archaeological...
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh, it is a... that country is a treasure trove of artefacts of its, some have described it as the cradle of civilisation, it's where our numbering system and other things that we take for granted came from, the Tigris, Euphrates Valley. So, it is a very ancient country and it's a very ancient and important culture and everything should be done to preserve that.
JONES:
Given that the coalition have control of Baghdad Airport, you mentioned this morning about the medical supplies that have been unloaded and well we sent the C-130 that left Richmond yesterday and, of course, I know that 50 000 tonnes of Australian wheat was unloaded in Kuwait last week, and I know you've redirected $83 million, I think it was $83 million...
PRIME MINISTER:
$83 million, we're putting $38 million out of $83 into the UN (inaudible) appeal and then we're going to spend the other $45 million on other humanitarian...
JONES:
So given that the coalition are in charge of the airport, it ought to possible, shouldn't it, to get the kind of aid and services that are needed fairly readily into Baghdad?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it should be. The only qualification I put on that is not a qualification of will. But bear in mind that there is still sporadic fighting in various parts of Baghdad and Marines and American regular soldiers, GIs, are trained to do that rather than other things. But I think it ought to be possible to get more and more aid in and quickly, and the fact that we were able to get our Hercules in so quickly and get it out safely is an indication that it can be done.
JONES:
The United Nations have come out of this badly, have they not? Can I just ask you a question which the public don't understand. Why should France, say, be on the Security Council in 2003 with a population of 60 million and not say Brazil with 176 million or Japan with 127 million or even Indonesia with 230 million? Do you need reform of the United Nations in the light of what happened prior to the Iraq issue?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think you do need reform, but getting it is another matter. France is on the Security Council as a permanent member because France was [inaudible] power at the end of World War II. If you were starting it all over again, the most obvious omission is Japan, and then you would have somebody from South America. But I would like to see reform of the United Nations. I think but asking the French, or indeed any other permanent member of the Security Council, to voluntarily surrender their seat is a major undertaking. But that's the reason why France is there, and I think it does distort. You should have Japan very much so. There should even be a case for putting a country the size of India on, and perhaps looking at having three levels on the Security Council - the permanent members, the rotating members and some permanent members that don't have a veto, as some kind of intermediate step so it's a far better expression of world opinion.
JONES:
Indeed. Look, last week here there was outrage in this city. You'd be aware of all this. These Greenpeace activists seem prepared to use divers or some form of boom line to impair the progress of HMAS Sydney and potentially damage its propellers. Now you don't need to be too smart to know that would be sabotage. And under section 24AB of the Crimes Act of 1914, your Commonwealth Act, the intent to commit sabotage and the possession of articles to commit sabotage, which Greenpeace obviously possess, is a crime punishable by imprisonment for 15 years. Why doesn't the Federal Attorney General and the Commonwealth DPP institute such proceedings in breach of the Crimes Act against Greenpeace activists?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Alan, as it happens I'll be seeing the Commonwealth Attorney General this morning at the opening of the Commonwealth Law Conference here in Melbourne. I'll ask him. I don't know the answer to that. I'm not aware of the precise status of any legal proceedings involving these people, and therefore I'd better not comment, but I'll ask him.
JONES:
Okay, thank you for that. See treason, as my listeners have pointed out, is the violation of allegiance towards one country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it, or by consciously or purposely acting to aid its enemy. The sabotage of HMAS Sydney, the attempted sabotage, would fit into that category. Why have these laws if we're not going to impose them against people who plainly are acting against the national interest?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I concede you have a very valid question. I don't know the answer to it, and I will have to find out for you. And I will, and I'll let you know.
JONES:
PM, last week there's some good economic figures here demonstrating that the Australian economy has done very, very well over the last any number of years. But the tragedy in all of this is that there are many people who keep saying that they don't share part of that wellbeing. I mean there are 162,000 primary carers around Australia responsible for the 24 hour care of someone, but they have no respite whatsoever. Is there room in the social policy that you're evolving with the Government, to be able to do something for these people?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Alan, I hope increasingly there is. I believe that people who provide 24 hour care are amongst the least saluted heroes in our community, especially parents who have adult children who are severely handicapped. The strain on them is enormous and I do hope that there are some more things that we can do for them.
JONES:
There are 23,000 disabled people Australia-wide who have no adequate accommodation. They're still in homes where mothers and dads have to lift and look after them. I'm told that many of those mums and dads are elderly.
PRIME MINISTER:
They are. They are, and more respite care... there has been some more respite care provided for them but there does need to be more, and I can't but agree with you.
JONES:
Just in relation to the SARS crisis, which I suppose highlights also the need to reform the United Nations so that you can get an international response to it, if you get another plague devastating the tourism industry, when that happens of course the travel agent, the airline, the cafes, the restaurants, the gift shops, the hotels, are in big trouble. Are you aware of that crisis and has the Government got a role? I mean basically what they're saying is - can't we get someone to promote tourism to get people here, to save that industry.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Alan, the answer to... I am aware of that, very much aware of it, and it's an issue that the Government has talked about in the past few weeks and we continue to examine in the context of upcoming events. But as far as getting people here is concerned, while ever the SARS scare is on, people won't travel. The impact on the domestic tourist industry is differential. There are some parts of the Australian domestic tourism industry that are doing better than ever before, I have to tell you. I was in Tasmania the week before last and every single person in the tourist industry told me there that that state is experiencing the best boom conditions for tourism it's ever had. That is one side, but I'm not saying that's universal. But there are, when you have an international scare like SARS, it has a big effect on the airlines and those parts of the industry that cater for overseas travellers, but domestically for reasons that are obvious - in other words, people stay home - it can often be a boom.
JONES:
Just one final thing. You've read your Daily Telegraph today, telling us all that your Government is the highest taxing Government ever - paying $31.1 billion a year in hidden levies and taxes, and 17 hidden taxes. How do you answer that charge?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I haven't read my Daily Telegraph this morning [inaudible] I'm in Melbourne.
JONES:
Oh, sorry.
PRIME MINISTER:
But I can tell you that obviously if you look at nominal dollars, then every Government is the highest taxing ever because the nominal amount of dollars collected always rises. I don't accept that on proportion, (inaudible) comparisons we are. I don't accept that charge. In fact, when you take into account the taxes that are being abolished as a result of the introduction of the GST, that's a palpably false claim.
JONES:
Prime Minister, I'll leave it there because you've got to go, I've got to go, but I would appreciate if you have a word with the Attorney General and I'll let our listeners know in relation to that Crimes Act and how it applies to the behaviour of last week.
PRIME MINISTER:
I will Alan.
JONES:
Thank you for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]