HOST: The Prime Minister joins us now. Julia Gillard, good morning.
PM: Good morning, Fran.
HOST: Prime Minister, this NATO summit, will it formally agree to the 2014 timeline for handing over security, or transitioning, as we like to say now, to the Afghan national security forces?
PM: Fran, the focus of this summit is going to be on transitioning, to use your word, which of course means handing over leadership from international forces to Afghan-led forces. 2014 is the timeframe that President Karzai has indicated he wants and he wants to see Afghan leadership of security, but my message at Lisbon in the context of these NATO discussions will be that we've got to have transition place by place in a conditions-based way.
Our eyes shouldn't be on the calendar. They should be on the ground and working out whether the time to transition is right, whether the Afghan security forces are ready to take leadership transition over and particularly, are ready to take it over forever.
My message to the Parliament, and the same message will be taken by me to Lisbon, has been we shouldn't transition out, only to have to transition back in some time later, so irreversibility is very important.
HOST: I beg your pardon, does that you'll be arguing against a fixed 2014 timeline?
PM: I'm not arguing against what President Karzai has said. He has set an aspiration for his nation and his people and that's entirely appropriate, but we need as we move place by place to transition, to be satisfied that conditions are right on the ground and that will be at the centre of the discussions at these NATO talks.
In addition, I will be making the point that we've got to ensure our commitment to Afghanistan is one for the long term. I made the point when I spoke in the Parliamentary debate, when I opened the debate in the Parliament, that we are in the phase now of having security forces there and we're talking about transition to Afghan-led security leadership, but our engagement with Afghanistan and our support of Afghanistan will endure beyond that as we help build governance and as we help with aid and assistance questions, and I did make the point in the Parliament, too, that building a democracy there, I believe, is the work of a generation of Afghan people. So this is going to be a long-term commitment, but the shape of the commitment will change over time.
HOST: Just in terms of building the democracy, plenty of people who are living through the process at the moment say that things aren't looking good on that front. If I quote Malalai Joya, a former female MP in the Afghan Parliament, she says the situation in most Afghan provinces for women and girls hasn't changed and she's given up hope of any positive change at the ballot box.
PM: Fran, what I would say is we're making progress on security conditions on the ground. We are training the Afghan National Army. We are training police. We need to do that in order to have security go to the Afghan national people, Afghan leadership and the Afghan people obviously in security control of their nation.
There are aid works also happening, including building schools which educate girls, but the issue there is that is very donor-led, international organisation-led. Ultimately, that has to become the work of the Afghan people and Afghan nation, and then building democracy, obviously, is the work of Afghan people for themselves. We can assist by providing aid and support and advice about building governance structures, but ultimately it is the Afghan people who need to shape their democracy.
HOST: Back on the security front, there's a media report today claiming that NATO planners will ask for more Australian troops to fight in the Kandahar province - we're already on Uruzgan - after Canada pulls out its force next year. Have you had any formal or informal approaches about providing more soldiers?
PM: I haven't had any formal or informal approaches about providing more soldiers. As is on the public record both from me and from Defence Minister Smith, we are in discussions. We've agreed to provide some additional artillery trainers, so that has been agreed. There is a proposal about increased police trainers and we are considering that, but Fran, I've always said and I'm very happy to say again that the Australian Government believes that our contribution to Afghanistan is about right-
HOST: -So that'd be a no, if you are asked for more troops?
PM: Well, there's a question of mix, Fran, between, you know, who is doing what job and who is doing what kind of training, but in terms of the total level of the contribution we are the biggest non-NATO contributor. We have increased our contribution by 40 percent in the last 12 months, so we are doing a fair bit.
We're obviously prepared to talk about what's the right mix as we go through and train the Afghan National Army in Uruzgan, the province in which we're working and we also train police.
HOST: It's 8.12 on RN breakfast. Our guest this morning in our Parliament House studio is Prime Minister Julia Gillard.
Prime Minister, can we go to domestic issues now? Senators are demanding that you release the NBN business plan. We had Senator Nick Xenophon earlier telling us that every day the Government holds up the release of the business plan is a day the government's case is diminished. Will you release it next week as the Senate is demanding?
PM: Well, I'm very respectful of Senator Xenophon. Obviously, he's from South Australia and I'm an Adelaide girl, so you would expect me to say that, but I'm going to have to disagree with him on this occasion-
HOST: -Why?
PM: NBN is the biggest infrastructure project this nation has ever undertaken. The Government has received an extensive business case. It's more than 400 pages. It obviously contains some very in-detailed work and we are going to put a fine-toothed comb through it. That's what we are doing now and we have said we will release the business case in December. I believe it's absolutely proper and absolutely appropriate for the Government to be there with that fine-toothed comb.
HOST: Is it absolutely proper and appropriate for the Parliament to have oversight of the business case for the biggest infrastructure project ever undertaken? Isn't that appropriate?
PM: The business case will be released publically, Fran. Obviously, some matters are commercial-in-confidence matters, but the business case will be released publically, will be there for all to see, but as a-
HOST: -But why is it taking so long? It's hard to get beyond the impression that this is a Government trying to avoid scrutiny. You've got the business plan, you've had it for more than a week now. You've got another week in which to get across it. You could bring all the resources of Treasury, Finance, Broadband departments to help you get across it. Why does it need to take so long?
PM: Well, firstly, Fran, we're talking about a document of, obviously, great weight and technical description of more than 400 pages. I am leading a Government that is going to be very careful, very methodical and is going to take that approach to the oversight of the National Broadband Network and we are doing that now.
Yes, the business case will be available publically. It will be available publically in December, and Fran, of course, I anticipate when it's available publically we will see debate about what's in the business case. I mean, after all, Tony Abbot has said his political mission is to destroy the NBN, so he will be there trying to take a word or a figure out of context and distort that in the public debate, so all that is in front of us.
We'll have that public debate and the business case will be there, but the Government will work its way through carefully and we're doing that now.
HOST: It's a dangerous roll of the dice for you, isn't it? The NBN was a policy which attracted a lot of support from the Independents, got some of them over the line in terms of supporting you. You're inviting a backlash here by not releasing when they want to see it.
PM: I believe, whether it's inside the Parliament or beyond, Australians want to see government being careful, being prudent, looking at the details, crossing the 't's, dotting the 'i's. That's the kind of Government I want to lead. That's exactly what we're doing with the NBN.
HOST: Talking about crossing 't's and dotting 'i's, the Government looks like it's going to face a battle in the Parliament over the health reform deal that Kevin Rudd signed off on with the states earlier in the year. The Coalition has confirmed it will oppose the legislation next week in part because it seems as though some of the guarantees you made in that deal about the states handing over 30 per cent of their GST in return for the health overhaul is unravelling. They're being asked to sign over much more than that.
PM: Fran, that's completely untrue. Every word of that question - completely untrue. The health reforms were always predicated on GST hand over. The average figure is a third of the GST. It has always varied from state to state-
HOST: -That's not what we understood at the time, that it was an average.
PM: Well, Fran, that was very, very clear - very clear in the COAG discussions, always understood by the states, and there was public commentary about the matter at the time, so the third was the average across Australia and individual state figures vary, depending on how much they spend on health and their per capita GST, but let's be really clear about this, Fran: what Tony Abbott is now saying he will do is he will wreck in the Parliament a reform that is going to give 1,300 additional hospital beds, 6,000 more doctors, 2,500 more aged care beds.
Australians want more hospital beds. They want to be able to see a doctor more easily. So many communities are just crying out for more doctors and people are well aware in communities of the shortages that they can face of aged care beds, and it's Tony Abbott that wants to take those things away from Australians. That's what he's saying in saying that he will oppose this Bill - wrecking health reform for his political interest, not concerned at all, for one moment, about the national interest and about community members that want those hospital beds, want those doctors and want those aged care beds.
HOST: It's 8.17 on RN Breakfast. Our guest this morning is Prime Minister Julia Gillard.
Prime Minister, you've agreed to bring forward the next ALP national conference by six months, in part to facilitate debate on gay marriage. That's still more than a year away. How do you think you might keep a lid on this debate until then? Can you wait that long, really?
PM: Fran, I determined to bring forward the ALP national conference. It was my view that it's appropriate. We're a party of government and a party of ideas. In order for us to be a party of ideas, that we have the national conference early in the life of the Government.
Many times, national conference has been held quite close to the election. Inevitably, that means national conference is more about election scene-setting than people being able to come and bring their ideas. I believe the Labor Party is a party of ideas, and people should be able to express them and debate them and the national conference is the right place to do that-
HOST: -And then will you respect them?
PM: -so I've determined to have it, you know, fairly soon in the life of the Government, so it will be at the end of next year.
HOST: If the conference agrees on a new position on the issue of gay marriage, to support the notion of gay marriage, will you support that in the Parliament?
PM: Let's be clear about the role of the national conference. party of ideas, setting our platform, and then it's the Federal Parliamentary Labor Party, led by me, that determines the steps we will take to bring that platform to life, so we will be keeping those historic roles. That's absolutely right, that elected representatives should have that responsibility, but I do want to see people come to national conference and debate ideas and obviously we will have a debate about same sex marriage, but I think we will have debates in a wide number of areas, and I think that's a good thing.
We can be a party of ideas and a party of government at the same time - on with the job of governing, delivering our vision of Australia whilst we are also debating ideas at our national conference.
HOST: On this particular debate, is your mind set on same-sex marriage, or would your position on that, if your Caucus and your national conference change its mind?
PM: Fran, I've made my position clear. I do believe that in our society, with our heritage, with our traditions, with our history, that marriage has a special place and special definition, so I've been very clear about that, but I will also being saying to party members at our national conference that it is the right forum to be debating ideas about this topic and more broadly.
HOST: Prime Minister, last week in a speech you called for more time to get reform done. How much time do you need?
PM: Fran, in that speech I was making the point that media commentators frequently write that they want to see long-term, profound reform in our country. They say that, perhaps, in their Monday column, and then by the Saturday column they're saying 'why haven't you got it done yet?', and I was simply making the point -- profound, long-term reform can't be turned around for a 24-hour media cycle, a weekly media cycle, or even in the online environment for a 15-minute media cycle.
Long-term reform takes patient work and we will do it, and if you look at governments past and if you look at the opening up of our economy that the Hawke and Keating governments did, that was achieved over years, not over 15-minute news cycles and a couple of sound bites, so I'm just asking people to do a reality check. You can't ask for structural reform to our economy on a Monday and then toss your head on a Saturday because it's not done by then.
HOST: Did you raise expectations yourself, though, when you took over and declared that Labor had lost its way when you took over the leadership and you promised to fix three big policy issues - mining tax, a price on carbon, and asylum seekers - before the election, most of which still have a lot of friction within them. Did you raise expectations about getting reform done quickly and I quote one of your MPs, Doug Cameron. In the newspaper today he's quoted as saying that he's concerned Labor's taking too long to introduce its reforms.
PM: Well, I don't agree with that, obviously and each of the areas you nominate, we are on a path that will take us where we want to go. Look at the path we are on with pricing carbon - working through with the multi-party climate change committee. This is a major structural reform for our economy to make sure that we continue to prosper in what will be a lower-pollution future. We are working through with that committee. We've said we'll get that work done during the course of next year. That's appropriate. These things take methodical work. They take leadership and I'm very happy to be providing both.
HOST: And just finally, Prime Minister, the commentary about the 24-hour news cycle is one you've made a few times now. Do you think the speed of the media cycle today is making it harder to govern, or harder to govern well?
PM: I think it makes it harder to have deep conversations. The reality is you can announce something quite important at 10 o'clock in the morning and because people are reporting it instantaneously, even as you're saying it by tweeting and the like, then by midday journalists are back saying 'right, we're over that now. What's the next story?'
Well, explaining what we need to do to ready our economy for the challenges of the future like making it a low-pollution economy, like dealing with the infrastructure challenges of building the NBN, take more than five minutes of explanation, so Fran, maybe it will mean that from time to time you and I argue about things, but I'm going to stick on the course of saying I've got a vision for this country. I'm going to get about, day-by-day, step-by-step, delivering that vision. I'm not going to be spooked by media commentary into thinking I need to cobble something together for a 15-minute news cycle.
I won't be diverted from the course I've set for myself, and that is I want to see this nation, with a strong economy that's ready for the challenges of the future, I want to make sure we're genuinely giving opportunities to all Australians to prosper and succeed. There are too many kids, too many people who miss out today. We are going to be working on delivering better education, better health, better government for all to make sure they too are included in the life of our nation.
HOST: Prime Minister, thank you very much for joining us on breakfast.
PM: Thanks, Fran.