MITCHELL: Mr Rudd, good morning.
PM: Good morning, Neil.
MITCHELL: The asylum seekers, they are on a hunger strike, they're saying they'd rather die than go back to Sri Lanka. I notice you said you hadn't heard the plea from the little girl onboard the boat of asylum seekers, Brinda. I'd just like to play it to you and get your response.
CLIP: Please take us to your country. It's okay of it's not Australia. It's better if any other country takes us. We can't live in Sri Lanka.
MITCHELL: Tragic, isn't it?
PM: There are something like 40 million internally displaced or internationally displaced persons in the world today, 40 million right around the world. Each one of those plights is a tragic plight, that's the first thing.
The second is Australia proudly, since the early '50s, has been a signatory to the re-settlement provisions laid out by the United Nations High Commission for Refugees and the Refugees Convention. Since that time, this country, under governments of both persuasions, has taken in thousands and thousands of refugees from the world, as we should. The reason we did so was because of the horrors that came out of the last world war.
But we have an annual quota, and we work within that, as do the other 16 re-settlement countries. Our policy is tough, humane but fair. And for any asylum seekers, the normal processing arrangements undertaken by the United Nations High Commission for Refugees would occur in Indonesia or elsewhere for proper analysis of the case and for proper re-settlement if people are established as being bona fide refugees, and if not they're sent back home. That's why we have a Refugees Convention.
MITCHELL: Is this emotional blackmail?
PM: Well, look, I understand something of the plight of people around the world. There's been an awful civil war in Sri Lanka, and I understand what parents and children might say and might do, but we have a UN High Commission for Refugees. They have offices throughout Indonesia. They have re-settlement camps in Indonesia. They have processing, and we have a proper way of dealing with this.
It is quite dangerous for people to take to the seas. It's quite dangerous for people to fall into the hands of the people smugglers.
MITCHELL: But these people will be kept in camps for years, won't they? If they ever get to Australia it will be a long time off.
PM: Well, it depends on the case. It depends on the processing time by the UNHCR. As I said, put this into context: 40 million people around the world. We are visible to what's happening in this part of the region - 36,000 people last year arrived in Italy by boat from North Africa. This is happening around the world and the processing time depends on UNHCR staff, the details of the case, how quickly you can get through it, but we, together with those other 16 countries, then have re-settlement obligations.
MITCHELL: Australian's don't like being threatened. These people have threatened to blow up the boat, and now they're going on a hunger strike. Does that disqualify them from coming to this country, to engage in those type of threats?
PM: The provisions under the Refugees Convention just go to the individual cases concerned. That is, what's their background? Are these people in legitimate fear of death or the threat of human injury or persecution if they were to be returned to their homeland? And these are looked at in detail by UNHCR officials.
In terms of the tactics employed, you know, what really worries me, Neil, is sending out absolutely the wrong signal to people smugglers to throw people into boats which are often unseaworthy around the world, very bad for them, very bad for a proper processing of asylum seekers worldwide.
MITCHELL: But is there still a possibility these people could end up in Australia?
PM: Well, as with previous people who have arrived here, for example, as asylum seekers on boats under the Howard Government, 90 percent of those issued with so-called temporary protection visas ended up permanent residents of Australia. In the case of these, it would depend on which of the 16 re-settlement countries were allocated which group of people by the UNHCR. We're one of the 16, so I can't say yes or no to an individual, but we take responsibility whether it's in Africa, whether it's in Asia, right across the world.
MITCHELL: But given the threat to blow up the boat and now the hunger strike and other forms of pressure they're exerting, are these the sort of people you want in Australia?
PM: Well, I've said before, Neil, that I believe that it's right for the Government to have a tough, hard-line, but humane approach. The UNHCR processes, I believe, are fair. They've been around for a long time. These processes, nor the approach of the Australian Government, will be moved by any particular tactics deployed by any particular person.
MITCHELL: The hunger strike will make no difference?
PM: These individual cases should be processed on their merits, and that's what we have professional UNHCR staff to do.
MITCHELL: I interviewed another man yesterday, Alex, onboard the boat, who wanted to send a message to you, and I agreed to pass it on.
CLIP: Kevin Rudd, we are thankful of the fact that you have already taken many of our brothers and sisters into your country and given them a safe place and a haven for them to get away from the genocide back home. We are very thankful for that, and we are very thankful for everything that you have done for my Sri Lankan people, my Tamil people, so far. However, I just want to know that why was that the 260 passengers on this boat given the same opportunity that other passengers on other boats were given. Why are we being treated like we are not as humans and other people are humans? That's why we are concerned.
MITCHELL: Your response?
PM: Well, the United Nations High Commission for Refugees has processing arrangements right across the region, including in many countries of origin, so my second response is this: is that, it is irresponsible for any Prime Minister of Australia to send out a message of positive encouragement to people smugglers in the region. It creates an industry, which, as I've said before, one of the vilest on earth, and secondly, it is potentially very dangerous for people putting their lives into the hands of such people. So I'm not going to be in the business of sending out messages to people smugglers in the region and more broadly across the world that somehow this is a legitimate trade - it is not. It is obnoxious and vile.
MITCHELL: How is what is happening here any different to what happened with the Tampa?
PM: Well, in the case of this particular vessel, of course, it has been interdicted by the Indonesian navy and the Indonesian authorities-
MITCHELL: At our request. At your request.
PM: In Indonesian waters. Well, the Indonesians cooperate with us all the time, and they have done so for a long, long time. Can I just make this point - we have had some 82 separate disruptions engaged in in the region, including in partnership with Indonesian authorities, going back a long, long time, so in that respect there is nothing particularly unique about one disruption or another.
What you had, of course, since the last election, is that we did make changes to the immigration law, for which we make no apology. We abolished the Pacific solution.
MITCHELL: But the Federal Police say that's one of the reasons that more people are coming. It's a ten-time increase this year. Ten times!
PM: Well, let me put that into some context, Neil. We've had boats arrive here every year for the last 20 years. In the period of the Howard Government, nearly 250 boats came to this country with nearly 15,000 people. After the Howard Government introduced their so-called silver bullet solution, temporary protection visas, arrivals went through the roof for the subsequent two years-
MITCHELL: So you deny it anything to do with your new policies?
PM: Well, we believe that our processes and policies out there on border protection are tough and they are humane-
MITCHELL: But are they leading to an increase in the number of people trying to get here. The Federal Police say they are.
PM: Well, let's look at how this actually works around the world - push factors. What has changed? Why have we just listened to, for example, two folk from Sri Lanka? There's been a civil war in Sri Lanka in the last 12 months. That didn't happen two years ago, three years ago, five years ago, seven years ago. Sri Lanka is where it is, off the Indian coast, in the Indian Ocean-
MITCHELL: Are you saying circumstances in Sri Lanka have worsened to the point that more people are trying to get here? It's nothing to do with your policies?
PM: What I'm saying Neil is that, and if you speak to our counterparts in the region they will say exactly the same thing - what are the big change factors? There's been a civil war in Sri Lanka, the extraordinarily violent military operation on the Jaffna peninsula, and the resultant displacement of a whole lot of people from that part of Sri Lanka. And the second thing is this: the United Nations Secretary-General, I think, said that 2008 or 2009 was the most violent year in Afghanistan, that there has been since 2001-02, so as a result, you've got new push factors. People exiting, but can I say, not just to this part of the world, but right across the world, and that's what we're dealing with.
MITCHELL: Does that mean you need to ramp up border protection further?
PM: Well, in the last budget we allocated an additional $650 million, which involves extra police resources in the region, police resources working in liaison with our counterparts in Sri Lanka, in South-East Asia and in various ports, similarly with immigration officials, similarly with our Defence cooperation, and similarly with customs officials. These are practical measures that you take, and we believe that these are stronger in terms of the way in which you handle things out there in what is a very difficult operating environment than what's been the case in the past.
MITCHELL: Will you look at a new visa class that could perhaps get these people off the boat and into the country more quickly while they're assessed? A new class of visa.
PM: Well, this, as I notice, has been put up the flagpole by our political opponents, and it seems to be a temporary protection visa by another name. I simply go back to the point this was introduced by the Howard Government as their silver-bullet solution in '99 but in the next two years we got nearly 10,000 people arrive in this country on nearly 100 boats. Now, can I just say, against any measure, there is not any evidence that that had any effect whatsoever.
MITCHELL: Well, ok, but I just make the point that it's increased ten times in the last year and the Federal Police are saying that's in part response to your policies.
PM: Well, can I just say, Neil, if you look at the period that I've been in Government, nearly two years, we've had something like 38 boats arrive with about 1,700-1,800 individuals. In the period of the Howard Government, nearly 250 boats, nearly 15,000 individuals. That's probably, on average, about 20 per year, and you know something? The push factors vary every year, in terms what's happening in the region and in the world. The key thing is to have a continued, consistent policy- tough, hardline, humane, fair. We believe we've got the balance right.
MITCHELL: It's just we've got a boatload of people sitting there, including kids and pregnant women, threatening hunger strikes, pleas, they're in a dreadful situation. Is this humane?
PM: The business of Government is tough. You always-
MITCHELL: You say it's humane. Is it humane?
PM: What is humane is us being fully party to the provisions of the United Nations High Commission for Refugees and the Convention and honouring our obligations, and you know something? The UNHCR has said that we are working quietly and consistent with the provisions which were signed up to by the Menzies Government in the '50s. That was not the case under my predecessor. So your question is about humane treatment - we do so in a manner fully consistent with the provisions of our international obligations. But you know something? These are tough decisions. No-one like to see anyone in pain, no-one likes to see anyone in difficulty, but my job as Prime Minister of Australia is to make tough decisions which are balanced, tough, fair.
MITCHELL: The Prime Minister's with me. Judy, go ahead, please.
CALLER: Good morning, Neil, Prime Minister.
PM: G'day, Judy.
CALLER: I would like to ask you to place pressure on that naval ship hanging off to remove the pregnant women and the children. They should not be forced to starve. That is inhumane.
MITCHELL: Well they're not part of the hunger strike. In fairness, the children, nobody under 21 or the pregnant women are part of the hunger strike.
CALLER: Okay, well that is fine then.
MITCHELL: Now, (inaudible), but they have been offered it. What do you think the Australian people want here? Do they want to let these people into the country or not?
PM: I believe that the people of Australia elected their Government to maintain a consistent policy which is tough but fair. The tough lies in what we're doing out there with our law enforcement authorities right across the region and in the air-sea gap between South-East Asia and Australia and the fair lies in us complying with our requirements under the UN High Commission for Refugees Convention.
MITCHELL: We'll take a break, come back with more from the Prime Minister, other issues, in a moment.
MITCHELL: The Prime Minister is with me. We'll talk one more call, then we're going to move on to other matters. Joseph, go ahead please.
CALLER: Good morning, Prime Minister. Good morning, Neil.
PM: Good morning, Joseph.
CALLER: I just want to ask from you, please help these people because you very well know what has happened in Sri Lanka for last six months. The people are dying there. I don't want to say how they are dying. They are dying and they are desperate to go to another country. It doesn't matter whether it is Australia or any other country. These people are not like, you know, people in Indonesia that are queue jumpers. They are not queue jumpers. They are the people, these people are desperate to come to this land, or to any other land. You can see the risks that they have taken. No mother, father will take that risk with this, you know, children that I have seen in the television, to come to this country. I am a refugee too. I ask you this on behalf of these people, to do something. The political situation is different. Please.
MITCHELL: Prime Minister.
PM: Well, thank you, Joseph, for your opinion, as put, obviously, with a whole lot of passion. Can I say two things? One is I'm acutely conscious of what's happened in the Jaffna peninsula in Sri Lanka in recent times. There has been a bloody civil war. That's why we, at a diplomatic and political level, including myself to the Sri Lankan President, actively engage with other countries to seek to assist the Sri Lankans in stabilising the domestic political situation to make it safe for the Tamils to remain in Sri Lanka. That's the first point.
The second is, however, in terms of helping people who feel or who are legitimately the subject of persecution, that is, they have a legitimate fear of persecution within Sri Lanka, to help them through the processes of the United Nations High Commission for Refugees. We don't want to encourage people smugglers. It's dangerous, and it's wrong.
MITCHELL: Joseph, you said you're a refugee. When did you come here, and how?
CALLER: In 1996.
MITCHELL: Legally?
CALLER: Yeah.
MITCHELL: Thank you very much for calling. A couple of very quick issues if I may, Prime Minister - National Australia Bank's made significant cuts to fees. I assume you'd like the others to follow?
PM: We would encourage competitive arrangements across the banks to help working families out there to the greatest extent possible. The NAB's led the way. I'd encourage the others to do the same, and you know something? There would be some modest cheering in the streets were it to occur.
MITCHELL: Ah, your bank guarantee gives you a bit of moral power there. Is that about time that came off?
PM: One of things we discussed at the G20 Summit in Pittsburgh was this: how do you coordinate the withdrawal of guarantees provided to banks across all the major banks worldwide? The problem is, if it's done in a haphazard way, you have the possibility of capital flight from one country to another. We therefore have to do this very sensitively and carefully. We don't want to pull the rug from under confidence. We don't want to pull the rug from under recovery.
MITCHELL: Would you agree an interest rate rise looks inevitable on Cup Day?
PM: Can I say, Neil, nice try. The function of the Prime Minister of Australia is not to speculate on future interest rate changes. That is the province of the Reserve Bank and the Reserve Bank board. But I've said consistently, interest rates will go up because they've been brought to emergency lows. I don't see any point whatsoever in trying to be cute with people about that. I've said this for months, because they've been reduced by nearly four percentage points, because of the impact of the global financial crisis, and as the Governor has said in his most recent statement, they are likely to be heading up.
MITCHELL: So if you're borrowing money, take care?
PM: Well, I think anyone who takes out a significant loan for a house, you've just got to do your sums, and you've got to understand where, to use the Reserve Bank Governor's term, historical norms of interest rates might be, and therefore make the calculation for the future.
MITCHELL: What about the dollar? We're getting close to parity with the US. What does that say about our economy?
PM: It says that the international financial markets and currency markets globally, we regard it as a strong economic performer. I mean, let's go to a couple of quick points. This is the fastest growing economy of all the developed economies. Secondly, it's the only one to have avoided recession. Thirdly, at the second-lowest unemployment amongst the major advanced economies, we're the lowest debt, the lowest deficit. People look at that, they look at our export potential with the major economies of East Asia, including China. They say 'this is a strong place to be'. The problem is, the dollar goes up, makes it harder for our other exporters.
MITCHELL: So is it time to wind back the stimulus?
PM: Well, you know something about the infrastructure stimulus strategy that we've put in is that it's targeted and temporary. It goes up, it comes down. It was designed that way when we put it in.
MITCHELL: But is it time to come down?
PM: Well, the way in which it was designed is that by the time we reach the end of this financial year, two thirds of it will have been invested. And that's the way in which it's been staged, to put maximum injection up front, and to tail down.
MITCHELL: Are you looking at winding it back?
PM: No, we have said that the in-built, shall I say increase and decrease of it, is appropriately tailored to what is still a very uncertain global economic environment. As the Treasurer has said, continue to review our fiscal policy settings depending on global economic conditions.
MITCHELL: Australia Post is putting up the price of stamps. How do they justify that when there's a $260 million profit? You're the boss.
PM: Good question. I don't know.
MITCHELL: Looking at it?
PM: Yeah, I will.
MITCHELL: Ever smack your children?
PM: I think I would be absolutely misleading your listeners to suggest that I had not. I have. And the rule that's been applied in our family ever since they were tots is that if they're doing something dangerous they'll get a, you know, whack across the knuckles.
MITCHELL: Did it work?
PM: Well-
MITCHELL: They're still with us.
PM: They're still with us. But you know something, it's all things in moderation. I don't think, I think the key thing parents have got to remind is just be very mindful, if you're a parent, and you're sometimes feeling very angry, that is the time not to think about that. The key thing is a gentle tap on the wrists which is usually, if you know anything about two- and three-year-olds, the cause of the quivering bottom lip and the general collapse into tears. It usually registers the message that sticking your finger into that power socket is generally a bad idea, don't do it.
MITCHELL: Got a job for Peter Costello?
PM: Peter Costello, as I've said before, he's made a distinguished contribution to Australia and I'm sure we'll have a further discussion about what might be appropriate for him in the future.
MITCHELL: Hasn't happened yet?
PM: We've had some discussions, as he and I have said, after he announced his initial intention to step down. We've had further discussions, so I'm not misleading you on that. And, but, we've still got further discussions to go. I think, as I've said, in terms of certain international contributions he's made in the past, and other contributions, he's got something further to add to Australia. Not every good person is a member of the Labor party. Not ever bad person is a member of the Liberal party. Let's just get beyond, I think, that sort of simplistic way of looking at people's ability to contribute to our national life.
MITCHELL: And will you contest his seat of Higgins?
PM: Ah, the state organisation here in Victoria hasn't given me any advice on that.
MITCHELL: OK. And just quickly on the matter of health, I read that infections are 50% less in private hospitals - 50% less. Now, that's being used as argument to continue your rebate, but surely that says that in Australia there's two systems of healthcare. You've got money, you get better care.
PM: One of the reasons why we're determined to do everything we can for long-term reform of the health and hospital system nationally is we don't want that to unfold. We don't want there to be a first- and second-class health system in Australia.
I'm a big supporter of private health care system. I've always had private health insurance. I don't have any problems with all that.
Secondly, however, you've got to make sure that those depending on the public system have a continued world-class system and that's why, together with the Health Minister, we've been out conducting 58, I think, now, direct consultations with health, with hospital communities around Australia, including yesterday or the day before at Murray Bridge out in South Australia.
MITCHELL: And the buck is about to stop?
PM: As I said to you before, the buck stops with me on all this. I said before the election - dead serious about it - that we would bring down a report recommending options for the future of the reform of the health and hospital system. That's out there. We're road testing its 123 recommendations. We'll sit down with the Premiers and Chief Ministers end of year and I said we'll determine our policy position early next year.
MITCHELL: And speaking of health - how's the gut?
PM: Well, it was in a pain.
MITCHELL: Have you recovered?
PM: Yeah, I've been okay. I came back from the United States - I think the docs would confirm this - with a very acute stomach bug, as I gather a number of our travelling party, and that was not pleasant. Then, when I went off to have it tested, they discovered all these gallstones. So, what is the cause of my malady? Who knows, Neil? But I'm fine, fighting fit.
MITCHELL: Thank you very much for your time.
PM: Thanks for having me on the program.