SPEERS: Prime Minister Thanks for your time. You've called this a Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme but can you tell me when carbon pollution is going to start coming down in Australia, when is it going to stop going up?
PM: Well as you know this scheme is not intended for introduction until 2010, that's consistent with what we said before the election. We'll legislate our plan is by early 2009, implementation arrangements during the course of that year - with the object of it coming into operation in 2010.
So we're looking at a long term target of where Australia's carbon pollution levels slide by 2050. You will see it progressively unfold in that period of time.
SPEERS: Do you have in mind a date at which carbon pollution will stop going up and start coming down?
PM: Well this will depend entirely on the trajectory, that is the pace at which we have this scheme operate and that will be determined in the White Paper. And that will decide whether we have a shallower curve or sharper curve between now and 2050.
SPEERS: So you can't sit here and say within 5 years pollution will stop going up in Australia?
PM: You will have a clearer idea of that once we give the mid term targets of this scheme and that will be determined in the course of the White Paper. And the reason we haven't done that now is that we've still got some economic modelling to be done by the Treasury on that.
We're also still in the middle complex global negotiations. What we've said we'd do with this Green Paper is outline the design features of this Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme and consult the community and industry further on it.
SPEERS: But despite the advice of your hand pick adviser Ross Garnaut, you are compensating motorists for higher petrol prices and you are compensating coal fired power stations for some of the additional costs they face. But the whole point of an emissions trading scheme is to introduce and extra cost so who's going to bear the brunt here?
PM: Well the precise nature of support for the electricity sector of course will be determined during the course of our negotiations. As I said in interviews yesterday there's no blank cheque here. We'll need our coal fired power stations to adjust to a lower carbon economy.
SPEERS: And there will be job losses there do you think?
PM: Well they'll need to adjust to a lower carbon economy, I take considerable instruction from a report from the CSIRO recently which pointed to the net employment advantages for the Australian economy of bringing in a scheme designed to deal with climate change like this.
SPEERS: So there doesn't have to be job losses?
PM: Well you know the economy is constantly in a process of internal change and reform. Remember the great debate of the 80's and 90's about whether we should reform the economy or not. Engage in internationalisation of the economy and as a result of that new jobs are created in new industries which previously had not been considered before. For Australia clean green energy, for example, with a whole new set of industry and employment options and possibilities for Australia not just at home but for export as well.
SPEERS: You recently described working families as those earning up to around $80,000 a year but they are going to be hit by this and not fully compensated aren't they, families on $60,000-$70,000-$80,000 year?
PM: Well my job, David, is to respond to the scientific facts on climate change, the economic facts and what we need to do to adjust this economy over time. And of course there is going to be costs on the way through. I'm not going to look the Australian people in the face and say look this is cost free. It does have a costs lets just be up front and honest about that.
Mr Howard said the same last year and I assume Mr Nelson has an option for dealing with climate change which is cost free, has he? I'm not sure.
So therefore the key is to get the balance right, to make sure that we have a system which bring down our carbon emissions overtime against the target we have set for mid century. If we fail to act the economic costs for Australia are huge, because we are the hottest and the driest continent already.
Secondly when it comes to bearing the transition arrangements or the transition costs, obviously there are costs for industry which we will support on the way through and for households. Obviously the focus also for households are those on the lowest incomes, pensioners, carers and lower income Australians where we have said we will meet the costs which arise from the introduction of this scheme and for others that we will assist and we'll decide on the precise formula for that during the course of the next 6 months.
SPEERS: What I'm saying is there won't be full compensation for those working families on $60,000-$70,000-$80,000 year?
PM: What we've said for pensioners and carers and for lower incomes is we will meet those costs. For other households we have said that we will assist. And on top of that we'll also provide a mechanism to help families, to help household invest in energy efficient technology for the home. That is to draw their costs down over time. The precise formula around that we will settle on over the course of the next 6 months.
SPEERS: The Green Paper indicates that the average household costs I think is around $11 a week which would be more than $500 a year. Are you comfortable with working families paying that amount?
PM: Well remember the Green Paper doesn't define a carbon price, it simply says here the vehicle we're going to use. So therefore we've yet to establish the precise carbon price and that will come once we set mid term targets. So let's take this one step at a time.
SPEERS: But are you as Prime Minister comfortable with a $500 annual cost on an average household?
PM: What I am comfortable with is taking the responsible balanced course of action to deal with the interests of all Australians and all Australian households and our businesses and economy in the long term.
No one is coming up with a credible alternative course of action for the nation. You either stick your head in the sand and say ‘sorry all too hard, too politically difficult - not going to do anything about it' and then we wake up in 5 or 10 years time to discover the problem is much, much worse.
SPEERS: But you are clearly reluctant to say that your working families are going to have to pay, and they are?
PM: I've just said earlier in this interview that this thing is not cost free. I've said that for industry and I've said so for households. I've also said that because we want to get the balance right that we'll be providing support on the way through for those on lowest incomes and additional forms of support for other households. Particularly on expensive questions like how do you introduce effective energy efficiency technologies or appliances in your own home and that's another area where we will be doing further work.
But we don't intend to just walk away from families and say look your on your own here. The way in which this has been crafted is to provide as much practical support on the way through, and this Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme any cent which is earned from it as a result of selling permits, every dollar, every cent, is spent in support of either households or industry to adjust to a lower carbon economy.
SPEERS: Petrol will be one of the key battle grounds here, now Minister Penny Wong said yesterday and I quote “we're effectively giving Australian motorists 5 years notice, before there a likelihood that the price impact will be felt in petrol” end quote. Is she right?
PM: Well of course the whole idea of giving some predictability to the future is that motorists will be able to say well look, longer term it may be smarter for me to move to more fuel efficient or hybrid vehicles for example.
SPEERS: But your not going to keep that offset forever are you?
PM: Nice piece of verballing there David
SPEERS: Well the question, your not going to keep the off-sets forever are you. It wouldn't make sense?
PM: What we've said is we'll review it after three years and we intend to. Remember...
SPEERS: It would be silly to keep it forever?
PM: We will review after three years and...
SPEERS: The oppositions saying keep it forever.
PM: Well the oppositions saying anything. The Liberal party say what they want everyday, it's a new script everyday. Remember last year they were against emissions trading. On the eve of the election they decided they were for it, we get to this side of the election they are against it again. No one know where the Liberal party stand on this at all.
My course of action, responsible course of action, is to find a balanced way through what is a very hard debate for the economy and for households. But the cost of inaction is huge.
SPEERS: As you know the Coalition is saying you've gone too far, the Greens say you haven't gone far enough, particularly on petrol. How negotiable is your position on that, are your prepared for a battle in the Senate on that, are you going to stick to your guns on the position you've laid out?
PM: Well we will be attacked from both the left and the right. I mean we are already, but what I think the Australian people are looking for is leadership which is balanced, responsible and measured in dealing with the challenge for the entire economy and we don't intend to walk away from that.
On the Senate, I think there's going to be a huge national spotlight trained on the Liberals. Are you going to be responsible partners in this countries long term economic future or are you just going to walk away and play opportunistic short term politics?
SPEERS: Sounds like a double dissolution slogan Prime Minister?
PM: Another nice piece of verballing on your part David that's twice I the one interview.
SPEERS: Is that a possibility or is that completely out of the realms?
PM: We've put out a Green Paper, well put out a White Paper. We'll put exposure draft legislation out for the community and for business to see.
We intend to be completely transparent about what we're on about here. And you know something; we are going to cop criticism. But I think we go back to the starting point. That is I've got a responsibility to act and the Liberal party, because they will control the numbers in the Senate themselves also have a responsibility to guard this nations long term economic future and to be consistent with the principles which people like Malcolm Turnbull articulated less then 12 months ago about their core hardline position in support of emissions trading. Or sorry, that was just their pre-election position.
SPEERS: Just quickly Prime Minister your meeting the Pope today. The apology issue, the victims of sex abuse within the church. How important is an apology from the Pope in your view?
PM: This is a matter for the church and I respect the internal judgements of the church. I don't stand outside the church and provide them with public lectures in terms of how they should behave. I've noted carefully what his Holiness has said in the United States. Obviously that was a source of great comfort and healing in the United States. I'm like all Australians very much looking forward to what the Pope has to say here in Australia as well, as I am to my own conversation with the Pope later this morning.
SPEERS: The church is concerned about Australia possibly providing overseas aid for abortions in other countries. What is your latest thinking on that?
PM: Well there is a debate about the adequacy of support for family planning processes in other countries through the Australian development assistance program. Obviously this is an area of big concern in the developing world about how you provide appropriate assistance. As with all aspects of development assistance policy it's under continuing review.
SPEERS: Have you got a personal view on that?
PM: I'm not quite sure where either the Foreign Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary Bob McMullen is up to on these matters yet. The key thing is to make sure you've got effective policies.
SPEERS: Your view is going to be important though?
PM: Well the key thing is to make sure you've got effective policies which deliver the policy outcome on these questions. And what's that? Being serious about the millennium development goals, being serious about effective population management policies around the world and appropriate family planning. But we haven't drilled into the detail on that and I've got to say one of the reasons for that is we've had a few other things on. One of which has been climate change.
SPEERS: On that note Prime Minister thanks for your time
PM: Thanks for having me on the program