ALAN JONES: Acting Prime Minister Julia Gillard has joined me. Julia, good morning.
JULIA GILLARD: Good morning, Alan.
ALAN JONES: Nice to talk to you. I'm sorry, but I must ask you about Belinda Neal. You're running the country now while Kevin Rudd's out of town. Have you spoken to Belinda Neal?
JULIA GILLARD: I haven't spoken to her directly, Alan. Obviously the Prime Minister's office, which is assisting me with my work this week, has been in contact with Belinda.
ALAN JONES: What do you make of these sorts of allegations?
JULIA GILLARD: Well I made it clear yesterday, I'm not happy about any of this. As Members of Parliament, whenever you're out in public, and it doesn't matter whether you think you're there for a public event or a private event, the reality is you're representing the Parliament. All of us have to remember that and I think this is now a hotly disputed matter where the facts are very unclear. We've got statutory declarations on all sides with all different versions but I think it does stand as a reminder to all of us that there's a standard that the Australian public expects us to live up to whenever we're out in public.
ALAN JONES: There's another issue here, I mean two other issues, I think. I mean firstly the victims, and it appears there were victims here - those who've argued that this behaviour did occur - are vulnerable people on limited income. They've got very few defences, they desperately need their job. The business needs desperately to stay in business. If they are afraid that politicians will exercise quote unquote “power” then they are in a very vulnerable position, aren't they?
JULIA GILLARD: Well I don't want anybody to be concerned about that. I mean this is a business where people go and buy meals and it's served to them by staff who are obviously trying to get about their jobs. None of this I think should be affecting the business. People should still be going there and enjoying themselves.
ALAN JONES: But if they felt threatened when they were performing their tasks then they'd be worried as to what it might mean in the end result.
JULIA GILLARD: I think that gets to be (inaudible) of all the facts that are contested here. I mean I know there are varying versions on all sides so I don't want to be assuming what did or didn't happen here when there is such a dispute over the facts.
But Alan I'm more than happy to say that as a general statement about politicians anywhere, anytime we should be treating the people who are dealing with us, whether they're there in restaurants, whether we're meeting them walking down the street, whether we're meeting them at community functions, we should be treating them with respect.
ALAN JONES: They are your paymasters after all, aren't they?
JULIA GILLARD: Well it's a democracy and everybody's got one vote and that's the great, great strength.
ALAN JONES: You're the Minister for Education, I mean bullying, according to research, 70 per cent of kids at school go through bullying at one stage. The abuse of power does represent verbal bullying. That's one of the concerns that seems to be at the heart of all of this.
JULIA GILLARD: Bullying is unacceptable. It's unacceptable in our schools and we've certainly talked to teachers and school principals.
ALAN JONES: It's illegal in the workplace.
JULIA GILLARD: As it should be, as it should be. And no one should be trying to exercise that degree of power over another person in an inappropriate manner.
But Alan, obviously in relation to this incident, we don't know what the facts are in the sense that there are now so many versions out there. Obviously, Ms Neal has made a statement about the matter. But for me, the thing that comes out of it is a reminder to all of us that there's a standard when we're out in public and we've all got to strive to meet that standard.
ALAN JONES: As the boss, though, just for one final question on this until we get to other things on policy but, you're running the country, you're in charge of the country, do you see it as your responsibility to call in the member of your team - there's one member of your team, the other person is a member of Morris Iemma's team - to call this person in to see whether their behaviour is consistent with what you expect of your team.
JULIA GILLARD: Well Ms Neal has made public statements about what she says happened on that night. She obviously rejects the allegations that have been made about her conduct on that night. What I would say to Belinda, what I would say to any member of the team is that people have to make sure that they're acquitting a good statement when they're in the public domain.
ALAN JONES: There is no reason it would appear for those people who were just serving plates and setting up tables to go into the detail of a statutory declaration that they have. Something must haven provoked that response, mustn't it?
JULIA GILLARD: Well what we do know is Belinda has made a statement in the public domain. People who were with her have now made statements. There have been statements from some of the staff involved. That's all out there. What my message is, very clearly, is whether it's to Belinda or any Member of Parliament, there's a standard. It's a standard I expect to see acquitted whenever in public.
ALAN JONES: And if they don't meet it?
JULIA GILLARD: Well it's a standard I think the community expects, and Alan you've pointed out, ultimately, the community is our paymaster.
ALAN JONES: On childcare, you're promising $1.5 billion of taxpayer's money to lift the childcare subsidies from 30 per cent of the cost of childcare to 50 per cent. Why wouldn't a childcare operator cash in on this and just put up their prices?
JULIA GILLARD: Well because they know that the Government attitude is, very clearly, that we will be watching to see if there's any unfair pricing practices.
ALAN JONES: There's nothing you can do.
JULIA GILLARD: Well there are things that we can do to expand childcare supply. And people in the childcare market know that that's a powerful tool...
ALAN JONES: (inaudible)
JULIA GILLARD: Well it's not. We've got more than 1,000 childcare workers coming on stream. They're in training now. We're committed to delivering 260 new childcare centres. We're going to pay the TAFE fees for people who want to be childcare workers, got another 1500 early childhood educators...
ALAN JONES: So you're saying build government childcare centres near existing centres to provide some competition. Is that all you can do?
JULIA GILLARD: Well supply side measures do make a difference to competition. 260 new centres is a big supply side measure. Expanding workforce is also important. Childcare centres right around the country that would do more if they could get more workforce into them. We're saying we want to see a broader childcare market here and I think that would be something on the minds of childcare providers.
ALAN JONES: But from July 1, as you know, childcare fees are going to go up by six per cent or $4.20 a day. Now if the whole of the workforce asked for six per cent from July 1 we'd be up in arms.
JULIA GILLARD: I think we've got to remind ourselves of the starting points here Alan, which is we are changing the arrangements for childcare so that the rebate we give people goes from 30 per cent to 50 per cent. People are going to end up better off as a result of this move, that is, they will pay less of their childcare and the Government will give them more to pay their childcare fees ...
ALAN JONES: You would hope, it goes up, just for the benefit of my listeners, the rebate goes up from $4,354 a year to $7,500 a year on July 1. Why wouldn't an operator say “well I can have a slice of that now”?
JULIA GILLARD: Because we are saying to operators we will be monitoring prices. We understand that the genuine costs of providing childcare change from time to time, the costs of doing business in childcare go up, but we will be alert for any unfair pricing practices. The Government is delivering a range of supply side measures which are going to change the childcare market. That's something I think would weigh on the mind of operators, particularly when we've said in terms of the selection of providers for our new 260 centres that a track record of providing affordable care will matter for that selection and we've said we're prepared to canvass other options at the Government's disposal if we see evidence of unfair pricing practices.
ALAN JONES: I should point out for the benefit of our listeners, the Acting Prime Minister is sitting here without any notes at all and has no notice whatever of the nature of the questions that are being asked.
Can I ask you a question about university. Brett has written to me and I've had a stack of emails of this kind.
You need not look any further than the health sciences - medicine, pharmacy and dentistry. Apparently my daughter's UAI of 99.85 is not enough to secure a position in these courses yet we read daily headlines of skills shortages in these areas. For someone who's worked in health for over 30 years, I'd like her to look elsewhere for her career but she's determined to reapply. Who is responsible for limited opportunities to gain a position in these courses -the universities, the medical colleges or the Government? Or do we just continue to import people into these professions.
What's your response to Brett? I mean it's just ridiculous, isn't it?
JULIA GILLARD: My response to Brett is it is ridiculous and my response is everybody's got some responsibility. Government provides some of the funding for universities in the modern age, not all of the funding to universities. Certainly Government can send signals about new niches to have positions in skills shortages areas. When I was the Shadow Minister for Health, which Alan you will recall I was for a period in Opposition, I set a national goal that this country needs is that we are training enough medical workforce to meet out needs. There has been an expansion in the number of undergraduate places for doctors. We are going to expand further the number of places for nurses. We are obviously critically short of both.
The aim here should be not that we are always going to put ourselves in a position where we have to import people from overseas to staff our hospitals. We should be training enough to meet our own needs. Doesn't mean no one would ever migrate because people go overseas and they fall in love and all of that natural kind of stuff, but we wouldn't be desperately scouring the world to get people to come here.
ALAN JONES: Can I just make this point to you. The previous Government, the Howard Government, and now the Rudd Government, have talked a lot about the shortage of skills to the extent that they have I think inculcated into the minds of the electorate that we're talking about electricians and plumbers and people working in the mining industries. All the research suggests that we're short of professionally trained academically qualified people and yet we don't seem to be opening up university places to fill that void.
JULIA GILLARD: The shortages in the vocational education and training area are profound. We are short of all of those traditional tradespeople - electricians and plumbers, we're short of people to work in construction, we're short of people that work in mining. We are also short, and you are right, of some very important university educated professionals and we're making new investments to take some pressure off there...
ALAN JONES: Can I just make the point that, sorry to interrupt you there, for the decade 1996-2006, which I read last year by the Australian Bureau of Statistics, demonstrates that most job growth in Australia for that period occurred within industries that required - their words - “trained professionals with university qualifications.” Now we've got to do something.
That brings me to the next question. I have been inundated with emails asking why people can't be allowed into university if their parents pay. I mean why (inaudible) other parents are allowed to buy a second car or a holiday home, but the responsible parent says “well, listen, you didn't make it because you did cadets and all sorts of things at school. We're prepared to invest in you, we don't expect any dilution of university standards and we're going to pay for you go to go university, to be full fee paying.” Why when we've got this shortage don't we allow parents to do that?
JULIA GILLARD: Because that hasn't been a measure that's expanded the size of the system. I think we've got to remember what's happened with universities in this country. Way back when, they were small very elite places. They turned into being big educators of Australians, mass education institutions under the Hawke and Keating Governments - people would remember the Dawkins reforms. Yes, we are...
ALAN JONES: Dreadful.
JULIA GILLARD: Well, it's certainly...
ALAN JONES: (inaudible)
JULIA GILLARD: Well it certainly gave a lot...
ALAN JONES: Dumbed down the standard (inaudible).
JULIA GILLARD: Well, Alan I'm not going to agree with that but it certainly gave many more Australians an opportunity to go to university.
Yes we are short of some university trained professionals, we've been short of doctors, short of nurses, short of engineers and short of people who have studied maths and science. The Government has taken steps to address some of that. We've got incentives to study maths and science, undergraduate medical palaces are already...
ALAN JONES: But why couldn't someone at university, an overseas student, Julia, pay to go to an Australian university, and a parent can't pay for their own child to go?
JULIA GILLARD: Well can I reverse the question which is why is it fair for someone who doesn't have money but who gets a better score to miss out because someone else's parents can afford to pay? Now I'd like to see access to university done on the basis of merit and I'd like to see access to university open enough so that we are meeting the skills needs that we have for this country...
ALAN JONES: But the skill needs are for professional university qualifications. Not everybody you know develops at the same time. And if your son or daughter was a late developer and you had confidence that they would pass the university requirements, you'd say well we don't want any help from the taxpayer, we're quite prepared to pay for our child to go to university, just like a European person can pay to come to Australia or an Asian person can pay to come to Australia.
JULIA GILLARD: If your son or daughter was a late developer then they could of course do a mature age entry, but the history of full fee paying places in this country has been that it's about putting people with dollars in front of people with talent. Now I'm not suggesting that everybody who's gone into a full fee paying place didn't meet the academic standards to get there - universities maintain their academic standards. But there has been evidence that people have paid for a place and got in when someone with a higher score who couldn't pay missed out. I reckon that's unfair, that's not the Australia way,
ALAN JONES: So we knock them both off?
JULIA GILLARD: No, the Government is phasing out full fee paying places and increasing the number of ordinary university places. So we're not shrinking the system - there will be new HECS funded places as they're referred to in the trade, people who can go to university under the normal arrangements, but we are going to phase full fee paying places out of the system.
Alan, I think what you're pointing to is that over the last ten years or so we have seen our universities neglected. They are very much under pressure. If you talk to a university vice-chancellor they'll tell you that. That's why we've got the Bradley Review of Higher Education to say what do we need to do to have our universities as a world class system for 10, 20, 30 years into the future. Whilst we're making new investments - and we're making a new investment of $500 million this year - that is before the 30th of June, this financial year - universities will be $500 million better off than they were before.
ALAN JONES: All right, there's several things I want to cover with the Acting Prime Minister. We'll just keep going on this. Could I just refer you to the statements by Kevin Rudd before the federal election when he said a Rudd Labor Government will publish the annual results of individual primary and secondary schools on national reading, writing and numeracy assessments for students in grades three, five, seven and nine. Publication of school performance information will form an integral part of Federal Labor's plan to improve literacy and numeracy. Now you seem to be saying that those results will not be published generally, will only be available to parents who have a child attending that particular school.
JULIA GILLARD: No, we're very determined to deliver the pre-election policy. In order to do that we've got to make a set of arrangements with our State and Territory colleagues. We've made the first bit of those arrangements. So it's just the first step and the first step is for the Federal Government to get the school by school testing results. We will also of course want to make sure parents get them - parents are the ones who are desperate for this information. But we have made that first step, the Federal Government didn't even get that information. Now that's not the whole of what we're going to do, it's not the whole of what we're aiming to do...
ALAN JONES: According to New South Wales...
JULIA GILLARD: But it's the first step along the way.
ALAN JONES: Queensland and New South Wales, I understand, will only provide you with these results on the condition that they're not published.
JULIA GILLARD: Well we're going to keep working with our state and territory colleagues. We need to work with them. We want to deliver our election...
ALAN JONES: But you mightn't be able to.
JULIA GILLARD: Well we're determined to deliver our election promise and I've made it very, very clear when I've met with the education ministers right round the country, we come together periodically as a ministerial council, I've made it very clear to them that the Federal Government will be delivering its election promise. Yes we understand that requires agreement with the States and Territories, but they wouldn't want to underestimate our determination to get this job done.
But I am pleased that even before negotiating the new schools agreements and some big things that we've got in the pipeline for schools, we've been able to take a first step and that first step is to say that the school by school information will be at least provided to the Federal Government. That's something that's never happened in the past.
ALAN JONES: Just one final question on that, do you say that Queensland and New South Wales will provide you with these results? I'm under the view that you won't get them from Queensland or New South Wales unless you say they won't be published as league tables.
JULIA GILLARD: No I'm not interested in the business of league tables.
ALAN JONES: Well basically letting everyone know the results of individual schools...
JULIA GILLARD: What I'm in the business of is getting performance information out there which tells you the whole story about a school, not just one little bit of the story.
ALAN JONES: You're saying you wouldn't be publishing it (inaudible) publish the annual results of individual primary and secondary schools on national reading, writing and numeracy assessments.
JULIA GILLARD: As part of comprehensive performance information, so that's going to be one bit. There are other things that we want people to know about how our schools are performing. We want to make an agreement with our States and Territories so the whole lot is there for people to see. We understand...
ALAN JONES: Just interrupting, it's eight o'clock but we will stay with the Acting Prime Minister. Sorry, just finish this one.
JULIA GILLARD: We understand that it's not just testing results that people want, they want the whole story, we want the whole story to be out there too, school by school and we're working with our State and Territory colleagues to deliver that. But we've taken the first step and I think that needs to be acknowledged.
ALAN JONES: Industrial relations - you also said it was a big play in the election. Forward with Fairness - again you can't get the states to fall in line with that.
JULIA GILLARD: Well we're delivering Forward with Fairness, we've delivered the first bit of it by getting rid of the ability of employers to make Australian Workplace Agreements which had cost a lot of families with ripped off pay and conditions. We're going to deliver the rest of Forward with Fairness in our substantive industrial relations bill later this year. We're talking to the States and Territories about making sure that there is a uniform system for the private sector. They've got coverage, the States, of people who work...
ALAN JONES: And New South Wales want to hang onto their coverage.
JULIA GILLARD: Well we're having that conversation but we are determined to deliver Forward with Fairness and when I met with my ministerial colleagues who do industrial relations including the New South Wales Minister, they all endorsed Forward with Fairness.
ALAN JONES: But my understanding is that State and Federal Industrial Relations Ministers have agreed to a set of principles for a national IR system that that model of yours is dead and the States, mainly New South Wales, haven't agreed to implement it. They want, the States want to continue to operate their own state based systems, all of them.
JULIA GILLARD: The document you're referring to is the third page of the communiqué from when the Ministers last met and page one says they re-endorsed Forward with Fairness. That's Labor's plan, it's what we promised the Australian people, it's what we're going to deliver and the State Ministers have endorsed it.
ALAN JONES: Just back to schools, quickly on this computer thing, I get a stack of correspondence, principals writing to me to say, because your promise was that you'd put a million computers or more than a million into schools and that every student nine to 12 would gain access to their own computer. Now principals are writing to me saying it's turned into a shambles. The hidden costs are going to have to be born by us, that is the schools or the families or the State. And they're saying to me well the promise was just provide the computer. All the other stuff - the infrastructure, the refiguring of the schools and maintenance is going to have to be provided by the States. Is that right?
JULIA GILLARD: We're working in partnership with the States but we've made available enough money per unit cost which means for States like New South Wales which have good purchasing arrangements a proportion, indeed a substantial proportion - around 40 per cent of the funds we're making available - can be used for the deployment costs of computers. But we are assisting with that. We want to work in partnership with States.
ALAN JONES: The maintenance, the adequate and safe power points and security, a traditional classroom's got to be redesigned. Who's going to fund all that?
JULIA GILLARD: Well, Alan I think let's just take one little step back. We are going to invest now it is $1.2 billion in the Digital Education Revolution. Before we made that promise and came to government ready to deliver it, States and Territories and schools round the country were doing what they could to introduce computers into classrooms. Now there's an additional $1.2 billion to help them with that task of bringing the Digital Education Revolution...
ALAN JONES: (inaudible) teach us everything about computers. Are you going to pay for the professional development of teachers, are you going to pay for the software that's needed to run them, for the curriculum support that's needed for them, are you going to pay for that?
JULIA GILLARD: We're going to invest the $1.2 billion, that's what we promised. In relation to the first round of funding which we've made available, the first $100 million in a state like New South Wales, a substantial proportion of that funding can be used for deployment costs, the sorts of costs that you're talking about. We are going to keep working with the States and Territories as to the best possible partnership for the rest of the fund.
ALAN JONES: Are families going to be up for money here?
JULIA GILLARD: No, this is about putting an additional $1.2 billion into the...
ALAN JONES: Maintenance, installation costs, will you pay for those? Technical support, will you pay for that? The hardware, the supporting hardware, the networking, the professional development. Will the Federal Government stump up the money for that?
JULIA GILLARD: We'll work with States and Territories in delivering the lot. We are going to have computers in settings where they can be used. States and Territories were spending money on computers before the election of the Rudd Labor Government. We don't expect them to down tools from that task. We expect them to work in partnership with us on the delivery of this Digital Education Revolution.
Schools wanted computers. Before the election of the Rudd Labor Government they were struggling with that. We are now standing by with $1.2 billion, the first $100 million of it going out by the 30th of June this year to help them realise their vision for making sure that kids have access to computers for learning.
So we're working on it, it's a new resource and the money that we're making available in the first round in New South Wales, for example, a proportion of that money can certainly be used for all of the associated costs which you're pointing to.
ALAN JONES: Just one final thing, and I don't want you sort of disappear through the roof here, but there's talk that the Foreign Affairs Minister Stephen Smith has signalled that India's refusal to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty could be overlooked and that we could be selling uranium to a non-signatory country. Indeed the Times of India claimed only a matter of days ago that Australian officials had softened their stand on the issue of last month's meeting of the nuclear supplier's group in Berlin. Your election promise was to ban exports to India as long as it refused to sign the treaty. Do you envisage any circumstances under which that ban would be lifted?
JULIA GILLARD: Well I know Stephen Smith is obviously dealing with this matter principally as Foreign Affairs Minister. I think the Government has made very clear its attitude here and we've made very clear our attitude about nuclear disarmament matters generally. Indeed one of the things that Kevin Rudd has been doing in Japan, visiting Hiroshima, dealing with the issue of nuclear disarmament. We're very clear on our policy settings here. Stephen is working on it. We're obviously working with a substantial democracy in our region with India and those talks will continue.
ALAN JONES: But is there, in the long run, will the Rudd Government find a way of seeling uranium to India?
JULIA GILLARD: Well I'm content to let Stephen Smith continue to work on the issue as Foreign Affairs Minister. He obviously is very aware what the policy is - the policy we announced before the election. He's stepping through the diplomacy and I think we should let him do that.
ALAN JONES: Thank you for coming in. It's always very beneficial for listeners to hear the kind of detail that you always seem to be on top of, I commend you for that and we'll talk again soon. Thanks for your time.
JULIA GILLARD: Thanks, Alan.
ALAN JONES: Thank you for your time. The Acting Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister for Education, Industrial Relations and I don't' know what else - what else?
JULIA GILLARD: Social Inclusion.
ALAN JONES: I don't know what that means. Julia Gillard.
JULIA GILLARD: Thank you.
ALAN JONES: She's going back to hot water. There you are, there's a little lesson. What's the hot water about, she's drinking hot water, she's turned all Bob Carr on us.
JULIA GILLARD: I'm trying to drink less coffee. I'm not sure that the hot water is the most satisfactory substitute but I'm sure it's doing me some good, Alan.
ALAN JONES: I would hope so. Good to talk to you.