Subjects: Asylum seekers; inflation; David Hicks; Australia';s involvement in the fight against terrorism; Australian of the Year
E&OE...........
MITCHELL:
In our Sydney studio, the Prime Minister, Mr Howard, welcome back.
PRIME MINISTER:
Hi. It';s very good to be back, Neil. Did you have a holiday?
MITCHELL:
I did, a very good one thank you very much.
PRIME MINISTER:
Excellent.
MITCHELL:
Mr Howard obviously the asylum seekers are the issue this week. Do you accept now that these detention centres are not working?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don';t accept that. I don';t enjoy the fact that we have to maintain detention centres. I wish there were an alternative but…
MITCHELL:
Well, why do we need detention centres?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well because if you didn';t have detention centres you would be sending a signal to the rest of the world that it';s possible to come to Australia illegally and effectively stay here.
MITCHELL:
But couldn';t these people be kept in the community and cared for in the community pending a decision on whether they can stay?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes but that assumes it';s then realistic and easy to send them back and it isn';t.
MITCHELL:
Have any, in fact, who';ve been kept in the community escaped or absconded?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it';s not been the policy for some time to have other than mandatory detention. I mean, the policy of mandatory detention was introduced some years ago. It wasn';t introduced by this Government, it';s been around for a while and it was introduced and supported by the former government. There';s been greater pressure on the system in recent years because there have been more arrivals. Although in the last few weeks there have been fewer arrivals partly because of the measures that we took at the end of last year and to that extent it';s fair to say that the pacific solution, as it';s called, far from being a failure, has made some contribution towards the slowing down in the number of people who are coming to this country. In the long run, of course, the answer is to get a situation where people don';t endeavour to come here illegally in the first place.
MITCHELL:
But what do we do? I mean, we have, I think you';ll agree, an awful situation here. We have people on hunger strikes, we have children involved, we have kids with their lips sewed together, we have division, significant division in the community, is it time to review the policy of mandatory detention or is that really what you insist on doing?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we won';t be changing the policy of mandatory detention. It is terrible to have those things but all of those things are being done in order to induce us to change our policy. Do you really imagine that if a 8 or 10 year-old child begins to sew his or her lips together that a responsible parent would do other than stop him or her?
MITCHELL:
Of course not. I think it';s child abuse.
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course.
MITCHELL:
Do you agree it is child abuse?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the question of whether it';s legally child abuse is something that has to be determined by other authorities and I';m not going to…well, I';m not going to randomly brand people as child abusers. I don';t think it';s responsible of me to do that. But I do know this, that the children in the proper, positive care of their parents don';t sew their lips together, do they? I think all Australians, as an exercise in commonsense, understand that and that is presumably what motivated the South Australian child welfare authorities to do what they did. But, Neil, I don';t enjoy this position. If anybody thinks that the Government sees this as a huge sort of positive, of course we don';t.
MITCHELL:
[Inaudible]
PRIME MINISTER:
We would wish that we didn';t have this problem to grapple with but in the absence of there being both a humane and also policy effective alternative we will pursue and continue to pursue the policy of mandatory detention. We are satisfied that, consistent with the fact that it is a detention facility, that the people there are well fed, they have good medical attention. The Chairman of the group that went there, John Hodges, spoke about the conditions being quite good. He even mentioned air conditioning.
MITCHELL:
Well, what are the conditions there? Natasha Stott-Despoja says it';s a hellhole, other people call it a concentration camp.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, neither of those remarks is accurate. Both of those remarks are politically inspired. And John Hodges is a former immigration minister, he hasn';t been in Parliament for years. He led a group with a series of background and skills and their report is not critical of the conditions. They';ve tried to play a positive, honest broker role. I think you are seeing from people like Natasha and others just political grandstanding in a very difficult situation.
MITCHELL:
What can you tell us about what';s happening in there because there';s been conflicting reports? Initially we were told no children had lips sewn together, then they did have lips sewn together, there were hunger strikes, there weren';t. We';re now told the number of attempted suicide by hanging overnight. What do you know of exactly what is happening?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I can';t…I would have to get Mr Ruddock to give you chapter and verse. But I can say this that clearly there is a campaign which involves an incidence of self-harm. There is evidence, and this is why the child welfare people acted as they did in South Australia, there is evidence that children have been, as it were, coerced or involved or used in the situation. Just how many I can';t tell you, a number have been removed and the group that went in there yesterday led by Mr Hodges has reported positively on the conditions. Now, beyond that because I personally haven';t been there and I don';t intend to go there, I';m very confident that Mr Ruddock is across the situation. I think he';s an excellent Minister and he has my total support.
MITCHELL:
As you say, if children have been coerced into this sort of action it is an appalling thing to do, will action be taken against those adults involved?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, my understanding is that advice is being sought as to whether that should occur. I don';t want to say it should or it shouldn';t because I';m not in a position to be a prosecutor and a jury in…
MITCHELL:
So that';s legal advice on whether to charge them, is it?
PRIME MINISTER:
That';s my understanding, yes. I';m not saying that';s going to happen and I';m not saying they should be because I don';t have enough direct personal knowledge to make that judgement.
MITCHELL:
Would it be a reasonable thing to say that if anybody is found to have coerced children into this sort of action we don';t want them in this country regardless of their claim to stay here?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I think people who are convicted of criminal offences, no matter where they come from, whether they come from Afghanistan or England or whatever, are not really wanted in this country.
MITCHELL:
So they';d be deported.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that';s a bit unrealistic because in some cases unless…you see, one of the difficulties here is you';re not dealing with deporting people to Japan or America or China or India where they would accepted back, you';re dealing with a situation where either a country can';t or won';t or may not take people back. That compounds the problem.
MITCHELL:
Well, what is the situation with Afghanistan? I mean, many of these people are Afghanis, they';re here fleeing the Taliban, the Taliban';s been replaced, can they go home?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that in a way is at the heart of the current dispute. One of the reasons why the processing of Afghani asylum seekers was suspended was precisely because the Taliban is now self-evidently gone. And we took the view, not unnaturally, that if the purpose of people coming here is because of a fear of prosecution from the Taliban and the Taliban has now gone isn';t it therefore reasonable that they look at going back or acknowledge that the basis of their coming here in the first place has changed. Now, you don';t have a changed situation overnight and, of course, Afghanistan is in an appallingly disorganised, chaotic, difficult, stressful situation and I understand that and we';re not unreasonable. What Mr Ruddock has now properly decided is that the new circumstances in Afghanistan, after the Taliban have gone, is now going to be put to the asylum seekers and they';re going to be invited to say whether that represents a change in their circumstances and that is part of the process which is now underway. But obviously if you flee Afghanistan because of a fear of persecution from the Taliban and the Taliban is driven out of Afghanistan, well that does change the circumstance and no amount of advocacy or pointscoring from anybody can alter that situation.
MITCHELL:
Are the people in this detention centre dangerous, dangerous to Australia?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, certainly not dangerous in a detention centre and not all of them, of course, are behaving in a hostile fashion. I understand anybody in detention feeling a sense of confinement and frustration, I understand all of that but we have a difficult position and we can';t just look at their circumstances in isolation from the entire context of illegal immigration to this country. And while we keep them there we have an obligation to feed them well, to cloth them and to give them decent medical attention and to do things that we can in a controlled fashion to give their children, and you can see that from some of the television shots of them at swimming pools and so forth, giving them some kind of enjoyment of life that children of that age around the world would hope to have. But this is a, I';ll say it again, this is a very difficult situation. None of us enjoys it. Anybody who thinks that we enjoy some kind of political charge out of this are out of their minds. We would like to see the problem solved. But the solution to this problem is not to throw up your hands and say, oh look, it';s all too hard, you can';t keep them in detention, we';ll let them into the community and somehow miraculously that will solve the problem.
MITCHELL:
You';re talking about alternatives. Here we have 10 of the country';s leading welfare agencies who are willing to take responsibility for these people. Free them, they say people will die if that happens. And these aren';t Mickey Mouse organisations…
PRIME MINISTER:
No they';re not Mickey Mouse organisations and I respect the work they do and I';ve worked with them very closely and will continue to do so. But, respectfully that is not a solution.
MITCHELL:
Why?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well because it will send a signal to the rest of the world for more to come. I mean that';s the whole point. If the mandatory detention policy is abandoned and…
MITCHELL:
Well that makes mandatory detention a form of punishment doesn';t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
No it makes mandatory detention part of a process of sending a signal to the world that you cannot, without let or hindrance come to this country illegally.
MITCHELL:
And if you do you';ll be punished by being put in detention.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well no you';ll be not punished but you';ll be denied the objective that you had in the first place and that is come to this country without lawful approval.
MITCHELL:
Obviously none of us want this to come to deaths, I guess that';s the potential of a hunger strike. If necessary, will these people be force feed?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we will do, I don';t want to make dramatic statements about what we';re going to do but self evidently we will do everything we possibly can to stop people effectively taking their own lives. But it has to be said again that people are engaging in self harm, it is being done to morally intimidate the Australian people and the Australian Government into a changing a policy. I mean that is the objective, this is moral intimidation.
MITCHELL:
Can we speed up further the issue of the visas, one of the faults in the Government';s argument seems to me that it has been a pretty slow process. Can it be sped up?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well part of the problem of course is that you';re dealing with circumstances were evidence is difficult to assemble and there was an interruption in relation to the Afghani';s for the reason I explained.
MITCHELL:
Okay, well we have several calls for you Prime Minister if you don';t mind. Ron, go ahead please.
CALLER:
Oh Prime Minister two things, one how is it that even after the Taliban were defeated New Zealand managed to in fact deal with 135-138 Afghani';s mainly refugees, illegal or otherwise, and have given them permanent status in a very quick time indeed were as we have been,to say the least, slow. And secondly if I can just ask for somebody who has a number of friends with children from England who have overstayed their visas it is said that between 50 and 100,000 are in that sense illegal, overstayed, what steps will the Government taken…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we always - from time to time steps are taken to send people out of the country who';ve overstayed their visas, I mean you talk about circumstances of your friends, I mean I don';t know the particular circumstances of those and I therefore can';t be heard to comment on that. But generally speaking steps are frequently taken by the Immigration Department to send people back, I mean I periodically get people coming into my office asking for help which I';m not able to give them saying well look you know I';ve had this wonderful person here but his visas run out but he';s doing a terrific job for me and he';s been told he';s got to go home. And that includes people may I say from English speaking countries so this idea that we';re sort of turning a blind eye to people who are English speaking and getting into people who aren';t English speaking is not right.
MITCHELL:
What about the New Zealand argument?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the New Zealand argument, you';re talking there about the people on the Tampa and the processing of the people, the processing of the other people from the Tampa is taking place at Nauru it';s not taking place in Australia.
MITCHELL:
And why is happening quickly?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that';s something I';d have to discuss with the UNHCR and the IRM.
MITCHELL:
Nathan, go ahead please.
CALLER:
Prime Minister first of all can I say that with Australia Day approaching I';m glad that Aborigines didn';t have a policy of mandatory detention for illegal immigrants. Can I ask why it takes so long to process these people, surely the cost of keeping them in mandatory detention would be offset by putting on additional staff to process the applications.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah but some of the people in mandatory detention you';ve got to remember are people who have been judged not to be entitled to refugee status, but we';ve been so far unable to arrange a return of those people to the country that they left. You';ve got to remember that.
MITCHELL:
How many are in that situation?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look I don';t know off hand but a number are that situation. But can I just repeat again that the processing has been slowed down because of the changed situation in Afghanistan.
MITCHELL:
Do you feel Prime Minister that Australia is being seen internationally as cruel and hardhearted because of this?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don';t think it';s been seen internationally as cruel and hardhearted by people generally. We get criticised in the media internationally as we do in Australia. The information I have from our diplomatic posts around the world is that there';s a lot of understanding in other countries of the difficulty Australia has. You';ve got to remember that Australia is an island continent and in that respect it';s quite different from many other countries.
MITCHELL:
This is causing division though isn';t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
I beg your pardon?
MITCHELL:
This is causing division within this country?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh I don';t think it';s causing any more division than you get on a whole lot of issues in which people feel very strongly. I mean of course people feel strongly about it, people feel strongly about it on both sides. The difference is that those who criticise the policy, many of them, not all of them, carry on as though they have a monopoly of morality on the issue, that there';s really only one moral outcome. It is a difficult issue and I invite the critics to think through the logical consequence of abandoning the policy of mandatory detention…
MITCHELL:
One of your own people…
PRIME MINISTER:
Can I just finish, they tend to look at this in terms of the people who are in mandatory detention at the present time without understanding that if the policy has changed that will enormously increase the pressure for more to come because they will know that eventually they will get into the community.
MITCHELL:
One more call before we move onto other matters, Rachel go ahead please.
CALLER:
Oh hello, yeah I';m outside Maribyrnong Detention Centre, I';ve been on a hunger strike for 24 hours and I';m just going to ask the Prime Minister how dare you say that refugees are illegal when the Australian Government signed the United Nations Convention in 1961 which stipulates that no refugee should be persecuted if they arrive to a country without papers. What you are doing is whipping up racism, it is whipping up xenophobia and is whipping up hatred about for the people who most need our help and assistance, and frankly there';s 24 million people in the world, refugees in the world…
MITCHELL:
Okay Rachel, we';re into a statement, is there a direct question?
CALLER:
Yeah my question is how can you lie so blatantly, so inaudible)?
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I';m not lying and…
CALLER:
So do you deny that we signed the United Nations Convention?
PRIME MINISTER:
Am I going to be allowed to answer this question? I listened very carefully to a statement.
MITCHELL:
Yes go ahead.
PRIME MINISTER:
I';m not lying, you';re not a refugee until you';ve established a refugee status and that is the reason for me talking about somebody being an illegal immigrant, there';s nothing dishonest about that and can I say that these claims that we';re whipping up racism and xenophobia because we';re trying to keep control of our immigration policy is, with respect, typical of the, I think quite over the top hysterical attacks that are being made on the Government';s policy and I don';t think incidentally they';re views that the majority of the Australian people hold. I think the majority of the Australian people resent the fact that some in our number are traducing the reputation of this country for being an open tolerant society that is more generous to refugees than most other countries, has people from more diverse sources then just about any other nation on earth and in the last 30 or 40 years has implemented and maintained and will continue to maintain an extremely humanitarian non-discriminatory immigration policy. And I think there';s a growing resentment in the hearts of the great majority of the Australian people about these constant attempts to denigrate the moral fibre and the moral standing of this country.
MITCHELL:
Okay thank you Rachael.
[COMMERCIAL BREAK]
MITCHELL:
The Prime Minister';s in our Sydney office and to those callers to ‘traduce'; is to speak evil of something, to malign.
PRIME MINISTER:
I';m sorry.
MITCHELL:
No. You';ve been doing a bit of reading over the….
PRIME MINISTER:
I have actually but I didn';t pick the word up from those books, the six books I read.
MITCHELL:
Six?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah I';ve been very busy.
MITCHELL:
Just quickly Prime Minister, a couple of things. The National Institute of Accountants wants the government to consider a tax deduction on Ansett frequent flyer points which are now worthless of course. Is that a possibility?
PRIME MINISTER:
No. There are greater priorities with great respect for tax deductions, and I have to say we can';t really look at that. Sorry.
MITCHELL:
Inflation. Are you changing your view on the economy this year?
PRIME MINISTER:
No. It was a bit higher than forecast but there were some one off seasonal factors particularly in relation to the price effect of vegetables and so on,but no.
MITCHELL:
Are you satisfied that David Hicks, the Australian who was captured in Afghanistan fighting with the Taliban, is being properly handled, receiving his proper civil rights?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes. I think once again he';s in detention. He knowingly joined the Taliban and Al Qaeda. I don';t have any sympathy for any Australian who';s done that.
MITCHELL:
Isn';t he entitled to a trial? I mean [inaudible] assuming he did it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well he';s entitled to….well I don';t think there';s any….there';s not much argument about the fact that he joined the Taliban. I don';t think there';s any real argument about that. He';s entitled to be treated humanely and consistently with norms of good international human rights. That means he';s got to be properly fed, he should not be subjected to torture, he should get proper medical attention.
MITCHELL:
Do you want him back into this country?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think it';s a question of determining precisely what his legal position is and that as the Attorney General has indicated is not easy. There';s debate about whether he';s a prisoner of war or an illegal combatant. Prisoners of war incidentally are normally held until the war is over. I don';t know how long the war against terrorism is going to last. At the present time he remains, is likely to remain in Guantanamo Bay. I';m not saying he won';t come back to Australia. And continue to assess his legal position.
MITCHELL:
Just speaking of the war being over, is there any indication yet when Australian troops might return to Australia?
PRIME MINISTER:
Not from Afghanistan. They';ve made a big contribution and there presence there is very much appreciated by the Americans. There';s still a lot of mopping up to be done in Afghanistan and as unfortunately was the case with the trooper whose foot was very badly damaged and he lost a couple of toes it is very dangerous and people should remember in all of the talk about the rights of Mr Hicks and others, think of the danger that the Australian SAS are subjected to and I don';t think people should lose sight of that fact. It is still a very dangerous operation and those men are representing all of us there and they are Australia';s frontline in the fight against terrorism.
MITCHELL:
Australian of the Year, good choice?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it';s always a good choice. I don';t make the choice. It';s made by the committee and I can';t speculate as to who it may be. It will be announced quite soon. But I';m very happy with the choice. I';ve been happy with the choices of the committee. The committee made a great choice last year in relation to Peter Cosgrove. It';s made great choices on earlier occasions. And I think it';s made a very good choice this year.
MITCHELL:
So what were the books you read while you were on holidays?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I read Samuel Honeyman';s Clash of Civilisations which is a book that came out about five years ago and talks about the clash between different civilisations around the world. I read Geoffrey Blainey';s Short History of the World, that wonderful book by Barbara Olsen, the wife of the American Solicitor General. She died in the plane on September 11 that crashed into Pennsylvania, and I also read Frank Morehouse';s Grand Days.
MITCHELL:
You';ve read Gallipoli?
PRIME MINISTER:
I';ve read Gallipoli. It was actually the first one I read out….
MITCHELL:
Not one detective thriller….
PRIME MINISTER:
It';s a great book. Well Grand Days is hardly a detective thriller but it';s a work [inaudible].
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister, thank you for your time.
[Ends]