Subjects: George Pell; Iraq; Canterbury Bulldogs
E&OE...........
LAWS:
On the line from Canberra is our Prime Minister, John Howard. Prime Minister, good morning and thank you for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, John. It';s good to be on your programme.
LAWS:
Thank you. Good to have you, Prime Minister. Just very quickly on the issue of George Pell because I know you';re limited on what you can say here. What was your reaction when you heard the news?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, like everybody I was very surprised. I';ve said something and it';s been widely reported. I don';t want to add to that. It was a judgement I made based on my assessment of the character of the man. I can only repeat that he';s done the right thing standing aside. The church has done the right thing in establishing an inquiry and we';ll just leave it at that.
LAWS:
How was he when you talked to him? Or didn';t you talk to him?
PRIME MINISTER:
I did speak to him on the phone yes, I mentioned that last night. He was calm and firm. We didn';t talk for very long. I';d heard what he had to say on the media, but having made the comment I have, I';m not intending to say anymore. The judge will investigate the matter in full. It';s right that he stand aside and it';s right that there be a full independent inquiry by this judge and I';m sure he';ll do a thorough job.
LAWS:
Yep. You';ve been criticised in the past by some for being apparently eager to immediately back people in situations like this, the Governor General being a case in point. I mean, you immediately backed the Governor General. Now it seems you';ve immediately backed George Pell. Do you think you';re ever hasty in that sort of thing?
PRIME MINISTER:
I did what I, I said what I believed. I believe from time to time as somebody in my position you are called upon to make judgements about people that they can be right and they can be wrong. But I think it';s only appropriate from time to time you make personal judgements and that';s what I';ve done. If I';m proved to be wrong, well that';s my embarrassment and that';s my problem. But I';m not somebody who runs away from taking a position and expressing a view about people. In relation to the Governor General, what I did on that occasion was to make a judgement, correct in my view, that the circumstances did not warrant my recommending to the Queen that he be removed from office. That was not an opinion that enjoyed majority support, I suspect at the time, I don';t know what the position is on it now but…
LAWS:
The same.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, you could be right John.
LAWS:
I think I am.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don';t know. All I can say to you in all candour is that I thought about it carefully and I reached a conclusion. And it';s my responsibility to reach a conclusion and when I reached that conclusion I articulated my reasons for it. Now this job requires some difficult judgements on occasions and in the case of the Governor General it was a difficult issue. I';m firm in the view that I took, that';s of course quite separate and apart from my total detestation of any kind of child abuse and child molestation. I find it repugnant to every essence of my being.
LAWS:
Yes, I';m aware of that. When you say you could be right and you could be wrong, you have been wrong.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I';ve been wrong about a lot of things, we all have. We';re human.
LAWS:
I mean, you';ve been wrong when you';ve supported people that really shouldn';t have had particularly your support.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I guess I have… I';m 63 and I';ve been in Parliament for 28 or 29 years. I';ve made my errors of judgement and I';ve also been correct on occasions, but that';s life. I owe the Australian public the candour of my views on different things.
LAWS:
Sure. On to Iraq, speaking about being eager, do you think you might have been a bit eager to talk up war against Iraq?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don';t believe I talked up war at all. I hope military action against Iraq is not necessary. And one thing that would make it unnecessary would be if Iraq were to comply in full with the Security Council resolutions on weapons inspectors.
LAWS:
It seems that that';s not the way George W Bush looks at it. Has he shown you any hard evidence to support a renewed attack on Iraq? Has anything really changed in the last 10 years?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think one of the things that has changed very much is that because of the attacks on the 11th of September last year there is a deep seated sense of vulnerability within the United States. There is a sense in America now, a deep sense, that because of what happened last year something like that could happen again, it could be a lot more destructive and one of the things I';m sure influencing the Americans is the fear that if weapons of mass destruction, or worse, are in the hands of people who are hostile and indifferent and indeed embracing terrorism towards the United States, there could be a further attack. I think that';s the psychology as far the Americans are concerned. I don';t believe that they have made a decision. I';m sure they haven';t made a decision and I believe they have many processes to go through before they ultimately do and I said a while ago that I thought on the balance of probability they would do something, that was my view and it remains my view but I don';t think anything is likely in the immediate future and I think there';ll be a lot of debate, a lot of processes gone through, and one of the things that will happen is there will be debates in the Australian Parliament on this issue.
LAWS:
But there weren';t going to be.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, it wasn';t going to be a debate, I wasn';t going to make a statement in this two week period. That';s the only thing that I rejected when Mr Crean wrote to me.
LAWS:
It seems however that the Americans are prepared to put it to their Parliament before they made a decision.
PRIME MINISTER:
But their parliament is quite different from ours, their parliament does not include George Bush. And the leader of the Democrats in America - the Democratic Party - can';t question George Bush in Congress. A lot of Australians perhaps don';t fully understand the difference between their system and ours. Our system is a lot more immediate and accountable and I am subject to questioning everyday parliament sit. The Leader of the Opposition can get up and say will you please tell me this about Iraq etc. Now that doesn';t happen in America and the congressional hearings that they';ve had have been quite once over lightly sort of hearings, they';ve not been ones that have questioned any of the senior people in the administration and no doubt further down the track that could occur. But I will ensure that there is plenty of opportunity for parliamentary debate on this issue and I don';t just mean in the event that a firm decision were taken to commit Australian forces. I';ve made that clear this week, I don';t shy away from debate on the issue, I didn';t believe it was appropriate for me to make the detailed statement that Mr Crean asked for during this two week period and that is what I rejected.
LAWS:
Okay. Just onto something perhaps not quite as important as these major world issues, but as a Dragons supporter, and you are, what do you think should happen to the Bulldogs?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I have to say that in deciding what the penalty is, the administrators of the game have got to have one thing and one thing only in mind and that is the welfare of rugby league. And the decision that best promotes the health and the strength of rugby league, not only in Sydney but around Australia, has to be uppermost in the minds of people. Now there';s clearly been a very blatant breach.
LAWS:
Very.
PRIME MINISTER:
And you know I don';t say that in any sense of vengeance. They';re a wonderful team, a wonderful team Canterbury and I';m very very sorry this has happened and I feel very sorry for their supporters and if I were every Saturday, as it used to be at Belmore Oval or if I were an every weekend supporter of the Bulldogs, where they play now, I';d feel very let down and very angry. Now I think whatever decision is taken what has to be in mind is the welfare of rugby league and rugby league has taken a terrible buffeting over a number of recent years.
LAWS:
It has and it was just picking itself up this year.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think if you look back over the history of rugby league in the early 90';s it was really rising very strongly, then it had the split, then it had the very bruising experience for the followers of that club of South Sydney. Now I mean the South Sydney thing was quite remarkable in that people showed great loyalty, great tribal loyalty towards South Sydney, quite remarkable, far greater than I thought likely and great credit to them. And it was quite heroic what they did. So I';m very careful not to give too much advice to sports administrators, I don';t give advice to the Australian Cricket Broad about the tour of Pakistan and I pass on information and they make the decision, equally I';m not going to tell the NRL what I think they ought to do, I just expressed a view in reaching a decision they';ve got to ask themselves one question and one question alone, what is good and right for the game of rugby league.
LAWS:
Just finally, if the Bulldogs stay there, if Canterbury stays there and goes onto win the premiership with the form they';ve shown so far, 17 matches in a row at one stage, you';d think they';d win, it';ll be a pretty hollow victory wouldn';t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well this is one of the things that I think the rugby league has got to take into account. I mean you can';t allow something like this to go unpunished.
LAWS:
No you can';t.
PRIME MINISTER:
You just can';t, I mean it just takes a mockery and we have exhortations constantly to the young about cheating and so forth and I mean there';s a salary cap, is a salary cap, is a salary cap.
LAWS:
That';s the (inaudible).
PRIME MINISTER:
That';s the reality.
LAWS:
Okay Prime Minister thank you very much for your time as usual, good to talk to you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]