Subjects: Zimbabwe; Steve Waugh
E&OE...........
JONES:
Prime Minister, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, Alan.
JONES:
You've got your hands full, haven't you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh yes, it's a good outcome, though. It's against predictions. People expected there wouldn't be a suspension but there has been. It's for a period of a year and then after a year the suspension will be revisited but against the background of the Commonwealth agreed principles about democratic election, so it's a very good outcome.
JONES:
PM, a suspension from what?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it's suspension from participation in any of the councils or meetings or activities, generally, of the Commonwealth. You may think, what does that mean, what it means is that an international community of 54 countries is saying to Zimbabwe : your conduct in relation to elections is unsatisfactory, we don't believe the elections are carried out in a democratic fashion and unless and until you change that you can't expect to be accepted back.
JONES:
PM, Fiji was suspended from the Commonwealth, not from the councils, because of a coup.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, Fiji, I understand, was suspended from the councils of the Commonwealth.
JONES:
I see, I thought Fiji…
PRIME MINISTER:
My understanding, Alan, is that the treatment we have metered out, if I can put it that way, to Zimbabwe is broadly equivalent to what was done in relation to both Fiji and Pakistan. [Inaudible] was suspended altogether because there'd been a military coup but in practice there's not an enormous amount of difference. But I understand the response here is broadly equivalent to what happened in relation to both Fiji and Pakistan.
JONES:
Has there been any response from Mugabe?
PRIME MINISTER:
No. While I was at the meeting, when the agreement had been reached he was telephoned by the Nigerian President to inform him of the result. I would like to compliment the South African and Nigerian Presidents for the stand they've taken. They've stood up for the Commonwealth principles. There'll be some criticism, some flak perhaps amongst some of the African countries over this but a lot of African countries, incidentally, agreed with the stance that I took to the meeting and it overall is quite a good outcome for the Commonwealth and does give the lie to the idea that all of these things break down into a black-white divide.
JONES:
It does mean, though, at the end of the day, sitting down at the dining room table and the table's called the Commonwealth with a murderer.
PRIME MINISTER:
While you are suspended from the councils of the Commonwealth you can't attend meetings.
JONES:
Right. Your own Julie Bishop, who's a very smart lady as you'd concede, the Federal Member for Curtin, was on that delegation of the Commonwealth Observer Groups. She talked about her primary concern being the Ministry of Youth training programme. She said it was established 18 months ago and Mugabe realised that the Opposition Party, the Movement for Democratic Change, was emerging as a threat and so thousands of unemployed youth were trained, she said, by the police and the army in apparent military fashion. She said late last year these kids were deployed across the country. They carried out acts of violence, intimidation, abduction and torture under the cover of darkness. Has there been any attempt by you three to address that cruel and violent behaviour?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, in a number of ways, yes, and I'm aware of Julie's views because I spoke to her and the other three people who'd been in Zimbabwe, I spoke to them late last week before I went to England. What we've done today will put international pressure on Zimbabwe. What we have indicated is that unless there is change then Zimbabwe's isolation from the Commonwealth will continue. You've got to understand in a situation like this, short of invading a country, which we have no intention of doing, your options for bringing about change are limited unless, of course, you resort to sanctions and with a country as poor as Zimbabwe I'm not certain that sanctions wouldn't do more damage to the very people who Julie Bishop and you and I are all concerned about. It's always a challenging mix this, you rail against what occurs and then you say to yourself, what can I do to bring about change? And it's often a subtle mix of international pressure and internal advocacy.
JONES:
So that will…see, the point is that everyone will be saying, well, that's terrific but it won't change the Government and what is terrorism?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I suppose, the only that will change the Government is an internal change. I mean, nobody's advocating that we should go in and invade the country. We don't do that, I mean, that's…
JONES:
What is terrorism when you've got a war against terrorism? You see, I've got a letter here this morning, someone's emailed me from Zimbabwe and I won't go into the detail but just a couple of things that you as Prime Minister will be interested in.
I just broke down and sobbed uncontrollably for the sheer brutality of it all, killing and beating…
PRIME MINISTER:
It is a bad regime and let me make it very clear that the findings of the Commonwealth Observer Group of which Julie Bishop was part were adopted by myself and the Nigerian and South African Presidents. Now, that's quite significant to have the President of Nigeria and the President of South Africa agreeing with the Prime Minister of Australia that the conditions were not there for free and fair and proper elections. You may think, oh, that sounds very academic. It's not really because it's quite a significant…
JONES:
I know, I know…
PRIME MINISTER:
But listen, these things are not determined in black and white terms.
JONES:
He's still the President, he's still the President, today, tomorrow, next week.
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan, I
don't have a magic wand, I can't change…
JONES:
Well, could I just tell you what this person…
PRIME MINISTER:
But what I can do is use what tools are available to create pressure and we have certainly done that and we've done it in a way that a lot of people didn't expect.
JONES:
No, quite right but I just want to share this with you because it's frightening. This woman's writing, and she's there, she said:
It's evening and our workers have all been chased off the farm, our dogs are still locked up in our house or killed in our home and farmyard looted. This is a carbon copy of what happened two years ago. We have to believe that God has a plan for our beloved country and we continue to pray. Today I allowed myself the total breakdown of all defences, together with our wonderful friends, black and white, urban and rural, I cried and cried and cried. Tomorrow I will be strong again and so will my family, friends and countrymen and women. But for those of you in the wings please help us avoid continuing genocide and ethnic cleansing, whatever you want to call it, we are on the brink.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that's very moving and I can understand your reaction and I believe that what we've decided to do today will add to the pressure to stop the conduct that's bringing that about but I can't say that we can stop it overnight, nobody can do that.
JONES:
It's just awful to have a bloke like this. I mean, we used to rail against Idi Amin and so on. I mean, Julie Bishop said this was an election that was fatally compromised before a single vote was cast.
PRIME MINISTER:
I agree with that and it's her report that the three of us have agreed with today.
JONES:
Right. So are you confident that there be any kind of … [inaudible] you're sending as an international leader a message to all these people in Zimbabwe that have just been denied freedom, denied democracy and many people denied their life, starvation, the bloke's turned the country into a basin of starvation, inflation's at 160%, unemployment at 60%. What message are the people of Zimbabwe getting from you, the international leader?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the message they are getting is that we agree with their view that these elections were not conducted fairly. We agree with them that there must be change. We are willing, to the limits of the capacity we have at a diplomatic level and through an organisation like the Commonwealth, to bring about change and improvement in that country. Now, that is not going to solve their problem overnight but there's nobody around who can and you have to use a variety of measures and pressures and diplomatic approaches in order to bring about change.
JONES:
Did you announce, though, that Zimbabwe would get another $2 million in aid. I mean, what's to stop Mugabe?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that's going to the very…I mean, you just read out a letter from somebody who's suffering. Now, you've got to worry about providing humanitarian aid. It's not going to Mr Mugabe, it's going to people who are suffering.
JONES:
People who are dispensing the aid.
PRIME MINISTER:
It's going to go in a way that it gets to the people who are suffering.
JONES:
Should our Australian Cricket Team be playing in a country…we want on and on about South Africa and wouldn't allow our cricket team to go there, cricket team going to this, Mugabe says, see, the world's coming to our door, they…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, there are discussions, I understand, taking place between the Cricket Board and foreign affairs about this. There are real difficulties about that tour going ahead.
JONES:
Right and so what do you put the score out of 10 of the chances of being there?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, there are real difficulties, Alan.
JONES:
The other thing is, you're a cricket tragic you've said before and…
PRIME MINISTER:
It was Mark Taylor that called me…
JONES:
I don't mind somebody being a cricket tragic.
PRIME MINISTER:
I plead guilty.
JONES:
Right. We have a magnificent cricket captain and arguably one of the greatest captains this country's ever seen. He's already been humiliated with the removal from the one-day side simply because we lost a one-day series. Now there are reports in London, not in Australia but sourced from Australia, that this bloke's going to be moved sideways as the Australian Cricket Captain. Now, you're the number one cricket supporter, what do you think about Steven Waugh being…
PRIME MINISTER:
I haven't heard that. I think he's been a magnificent captain. And can I also say, as a matter of principle, I don't believe in having different selection principles for test and one-day cricket. I'm not going to get into who should be in which team, given that you do have these separate approaches but as a matter of principle I would have essentially the same team.
JONES:
But they're talking about shifting him out of the Test side. I mean, if you were the selector for the cricket Test side, the Test side, would you be picking Steven Waugh as captain?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think he's a great captain, I'd always pick him.
JONES:
Good on you. Just one final thing, Prime Minister, you're away, you come back to problems, there are suggestions today here, in the newspapers here and all yesterday, that the Department of Finance had Senator Heffernan's documents checked in 2000, Tony Abbott told the Parliament that the document had previously gone to the Special Minister of State. If, as is being said today, the Department of Finance twice investigated claims that Justice Kirby misused cars and if they found no material to back up those claims and if the Department of Finance found that those Comcar dockets, as apparently was the case, were bogus and if, as you have constantly said, Senator Heffernan is your friend, can't it be argued that you, as Prime Minister, have taken your eye off the ball?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, but I can't get into all of the detail of that. I haven't read the morning papers in Australia, Alan, I haven't and I'm not going to try and answer that sort of question.
JONES:
Right, but you did table some stuff in the Hansard which now they're saying had previously been found to be bogus.
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan, Alan, I tabled a letter from Senator Heffernan, I didn't table anything else.
JONES:
Did you know of this material being investigated?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't even know what material you're talking about. No, Alan…[inaudible]
JONES:
Okay, it's unfair, fair enough, fair enough.
PRIME MINISTER:
I mean, you know, I haven't…you're asking me a very complicated [inaudible] reference question based on press reports that I haven't seen and I'm not going to answer that.
JONES:
Does that end the meeting of the delegation and so are you on your way home or is there anything further?
PRIME MINISTER:
The meeting is over but tomorrow I'm seeing the Foreign Secretary, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister and then I'll be coming home on Thursday evening.
JONES:
Okay, thank you for your time this morning.
[ends]