Subjects: terrorism; Australian held by US in Afghanistan; access to IVF; tax reform; maternity leave.
E&OE...........
MITCHELL:
First today in our Sydney studios the Prime Minister. Mr Howard good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Neil. How are you?
MITCHELL:
Well thank you. Mr Howard, first this incident in Milan, an aircraft into a tall building, do you have any report on whether there';s a possibility of terrorism here?
PRIME MINISTER:
I have nothing other than what';s been on the news and that doubts that it is a terrorist attack. I might get something more this morning but I don';t have at the moment any information to suggest that it was a terrorist attack and I';m relying at present on news reports which said it was probably an accident.
MITCHELL:
I suppose like most people it would have gone through your mind.
PRIME MINISTER:
Absolutely. You associate a tall building and an aircraft forever with what happened last year in America and I think it went through everybody';s mind but I heard some early morning news reports when I was out walking this morning and they all suggested that the authorities in Italy believed it was an accident.
MITCHELL:
I guess it';s almost linked or it is linked to the area, an unidentified substance sent to Mr Costello';s office yesterday. Do we know yet whether that was a serious threat?
PRIME MINISTER:
The belief is that it';s not. I mean it';s very scary, very scary for the Treasurer';s staff who were exposed to it. But they';ve gone through the normal processes and it';s being analysed. The belief is that it';s not dangerous in a chemical sense but psychologically this kind of behaviour is appalling and of course it';s now subject to heavy criminal sanction.
MITCHELL:
Do we know what it was yet?
PRIME MINISTER:
No.
MITCHELL:
Any note with it?
PRIME MINISTER:
I';m not aware of one no, just there, which seems to be the pattern with so many of these but it certainly caused a lot of alarums and excursions in Canberra and people were quite properly emptied out of the Treasurer';s office and there was a detoxification process that';s gone through and it would have been very upsetting for his staff because that kind of thing you never know. Most of the incidents, in fact all of the incidents to date have been chemically innocent but psychologically very prejudicial but you never know when one might be the real thing.
MITCHELL:
It';s an evil thing to do isn';t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Absolutely hideous.
MITCHELL:
Is security satisfactory?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you can never have perfect security but it';s pretty tight. But Neil, you know it';s impossible to guard against lunatics isn';t it, people who behave in this malicious fashion, people who do that. I mean no matter what kind of security you have the number of mail articles for example is so large that it';s a practical impossibility to give a 100% guarantee that something like this can';t get through.
MITCHELL:
Yeah. Just still on the area another Australian arrested as a suspect terrorist, Mamdouh Habib, you';ve obviously been alerted to this.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I was briefed about it yesterday before the Attorney General.
MITCHELL:
What';s he alleged to have done?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there';s a suggestion that he trained with Al Qaeda. He';s in the custody of the Americans. He could go to Guantanamo Bay. We';re getting further information. We can';t say at this stage whether he would be liable for prosecution for the breach of any Australian law. Obviously he';ll be looked at. There';s no suggestion that there';s any direct link between him and David Hicks. The circumstances of apprehension are different. Hicks was apprehended I think around Kabul by the Northern Alliance and this fellow was apprehended when he was crossing a border and re-entered the country. But we';re looking at it and we';ll have something further to say when we can.
MITCHELL:
Presumably you';re looking to see if he was doing anything within this country?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, at this stage it';s too early for anything definite to be said.
MITCHELL:
Okay. Now the IVF situation with single women, will you legislate to stop single women and lesbians having access to IVF?
PRIME MINISTER:
We';ll look at it again probably next week. I think there';s a very strong likelihood that we will, that we will press ahead with that legislation. The High Court';s decision related to the action by the Catholic Bishops Conference and the majority of the High Court as I read the judgement ruled against the bishops because they didn';t believe they had any legal standing, that they weren';t a party.
MITCHELL:
It was more of a technicality…
PRIME MINISTER:
It was a procedural technical issue. We have received advice all along that there probably is a technical inconsistency between the Sex Discrimination Act and the state legislation allowing state governments to deny the IVF program to other than heterosexual couples married or de facto. We';ve accepted that and we said well we don';t think the Sex Discrimination Act was ever intended to prevent a state from limiting the availability of the program to particular groups in the community and that was the basis of our legislation. Now we';ll look at the matter again in the light of what';s happened but the policy that motivated our original decision, the policy issues haven';t really changed. We';re not talking here about discrimination. We';re talking about the rights of children.
MITCHELL:
I want to get you to spell out that policy…..
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we do take the view that all things being equal children are entitled to the opportunity of both a mother and a father. Now I know through a whole lot of circumstances many children are denied that, parents die, parents separate, parents are unable or are unfit to discharge their parental responsibilities. But where you have a situation where you are deliberately creating a situation where a child will not have the opportunity of a father we think that';s bad policy.
MITCHELL:
Is it? Why is it bad policy? I mean it';s getting into a very difficult area of what is a good family.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think that the available evidence suggests that whilst not every male and female, a couple, not every traditional family arrangement is perfect, far from it. Many of them break down. But the evidence does suggest that children raised in the environment of having both a mother and a father are more likely to have happier, more fulfilled lives. Now that';s not to say single women don';t do a wonderful job. Most single women are not single women by choice, single mothers rather, are not single mothers by choice. They are single mothers by adverse circumstances – death, separation, unacceptable conduct, whatever the reasons are. But it';s really a question of looking at human existence and human experience and forming the view that we ought, other things being equal, give children the opportunity and the care and advantage and nurture of both a mother and a father. Now I don';t think that';s particularly conservative or revolutionary. It';s certainly not revolutionary, I don';t think it';s a particularly conservative or restrictive view.
MITCHELL:
Well perhaps outdated.
PRIME MINISTER:
I don';t think it is. I really don';t. What it';s outdated to say that it';s desirable that a child have the care of both a mother and a father?
MITCHELL:
Not desirable but to be an exclusive situation is perhaps outdated.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we';re not saying it';s an exclusive situation. There are plenty of people who through no desire or design of their own only have a mother or a father, or perhaps they';re denied both. But you';re talking here of a situation where from the very beginning you are saying the child can';t have a father.
MITCHELL:
Does the situation of a lesbian couple concern you more than a single woman?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I haven';t really sat down and sort of thought about that. I will but I don';t know that that';s relevant to the argument.
MITCHELL:
Well there';d be a lot of lesbian couples who';d want to use IVF to become pregnant.
PRIME MINISTER:
I understand that and I';m not into the business of attacking people';s individual lifestyles. That';s their business and people';s sexual preference is a matter for them and I don';t think should be the subject of discrimination. But we';re talking here about the rights of the child. The reason we have taken this attitude is not that we wish to discriminate against single women or lesbians. That';s not the reason. We';re looking to the interests of unborn children and I think the Government does have a responsibility to express a view, send a signal, as to what its beliefs about the kind of society we ought to be, or what that society ought to be. Now these are never easy issues. I think the last time you and I spoke we were talking about stem cells. I think we came out with a sensible position there that the community felt comfortable with, and I certainly felt comfortable with from an ethical but also from a scientific point of view. And I know there';ll be people listening to this program who don';t agree with what I';m saying but a lot of people will.
MITCHELL:
Would you allow a conscience vote on it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we';ll have a look at that.
MITCHELL:
Is the cost relevant here, the position. I';ve heard the argument put that if you have single mothers that increases the load on the single parents'; pension.
PRIME MINISTER:
I think there';d be some additional cost. I don';t think that is the dominant issue although there is a principle at stake here. You are dealing with a program that involves a very heavy taxpayers'; subsidy, the IVF program, and what we';re talking about here is we';re not talking about the federal government passing legislation which will prohibit single women or lesbian couples having access to the IVF program. What we';re talking about here is the federal government passing legislation to allow the states if they wish to give priority to couples, heterosexual couples.
MITCHELL:
You';ve made it fairly clear, your position is….
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh yes, I';ve made that clear, we think that states should have the right to give that preference, yes.
MITCHELL:
Steve, go ahead please Steve.
CALLER:
Good morning Prime Minister. I just wanted to sort of praise the Prime Minister for taking the decision he';s taken because ultimately we need to continue to have some decent moral values in this community and if the government doesn';t lead in that who';s going to?
MITCHELL:
Okay. Do you see it as a moral stand Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
I see it as something relating to the rights and interests of children. Look I';m always wary about sort of telling people, in fact I avoid where I possibly can telling individual people how to behave. That';s a matter for them. Nobody in this world is perfect and I certainly don';t see the role of the Prime Minister is to run around waving his finger at people telling them how to behave. But I do think when it comes to such a fundamental thing as the rights of children the Prime Minister ought to put up his hand and say this is how I think it ought to be. Now I';ll get a lot of flak, I';ll get a lot of support. But I';ve never been somebody who';s run away from taking a position. It';s the job of a Prime Minister from time to time to take a position. Now I put a lot of thought into the stem cell research issue. I had a lot of contrary views put to me and I came to a decision that I felt very comfortable with as a matter of conscience, and I';ve come to the same conclusion in relation to this. But I do need to talk to my colleagues in the Government about it and see where we';re going to go.
[ad break]
MITCHELL:
The Prime Minister is with us in our Sydney studio. Louise go ahead.
CALLER:
Yes, hi Neil. I was brought up in a single parent home and I';m a 37 year old single woman. And I wouldn';t undertake IVF, purely because I understand from a child';s point of view that a father is fundamental to a family and also I think a single woman is thinking of herself, she is not thinking of the child, just as the Prime Minister said.
MITCHELL:
That';s interesting. Prime Minister, do you see it as a selfish act?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don';t want to get into moral judgements because this is a sensitive area and I';m not setting out to denigrate or offend people. What I';m setting out to do is to say that in all of these things, the rights and interests of the child should be paramount. And that is what Louise is saying, and I agree with her. I';m interested that from her experience and perspective, she should have reached that conclusion. And I do want to emphasise again that single parents, most of whom are single mothers, do an extraordinary job. Very few women in our community are single mothers by choice. Most of them are single mothers as a result of adverse circumstances. And they do a terrific job, and this is not directed at them. It again, as Louise said, it';s about the rights and the interests of children.
MITCHELL:
We';ll continue this debate after 9.00 with more calls. I';ll just ask about maternity leave Prime Minister. Will the Government legislate to make maternity leave compulsory?
PRIME MINISTER:
We';re not going to commit ourselves on the run to do that. We already have a lot of quite substantial benefits including the new so-called baby bonus which operates with effect from the 1st of July last year. It will provide a very significant level of financial help for mothers having their first child. We';ll have a look at the Sex Commissioner';s report. It';s a valuable report and I thank her for it. We';ll examine it very carefully. I';m not ruling something out, I';m not ruling it in either. We';ll just have a look at it and…
MITCHELL:
It';d be a very big step, wouldn';t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes and if you are to fund it out of the taxpayer';s pocket, well it';s going to cost money. If you are to impose it on employers, that will actually discriminate against some women because there could well be fewer women employees, no matter what sex discrimination laws might say because many small firms just won';t be able to afford it. There are a lot of things to be taken into account. We do have a low fertility rate in this country. Our fertility rate began to decline very sharply in the 1970s. We';re not alone.
MITCHELL:
That obviously concerns you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course it does. But there are a lot of ways you';ve got to tackle it. And it';s not just related to the state of our maternity leave laws, I mean obviously everything has an influence. But there are a lot of other factors. And it does concern me. I';d like to see it turned around. The evidence of other countries is that no one single financial inducement by Governments can turn it around. It';s due to a lot of lifestyle choices and factors that are taken into account by people when planning to have their children. And I think we need to have an understanding that there are different groups in the community. There are some in the community who see, women in the community who see their role as being predominantly that of, or their aim in life as having a career. There are others who see it almost exclusively in terms of being a homemaker. And there are others who really want to mix the two. And we have to build policies that recognise those three categories, rather than trying to impose a stereotype on the whole community.
MITCHELL:
Can I ask about a couple of other things?
PRIME MINISTER:
Sure.
MITCHELL:
Do you believe as the Defence Chief Admiral Barrie said that we could be on the verge of World War III?
PRIME MINISTER:
I';m not… I haven';t actually seen precise remarks that he made. I';m not, if you';re asking me, let me answer you separately from the context of what the Admiral may have said. But I don';t, no. I think the world situation is quite difficult and dangerous. I don';t see us being on the verge of World War III. You don';t have the trigger because you don';t have the clash of two superpowers. You have only one superpower now, and that';s the United States. To that extent, the world is a little more secure than it was during the Cold War. On the other hand, you have a number of very difficult areas such as the Middle East. Clearly the war against terrorism. Obviously the, although not quite of the same dimension, the tension between India and Pakistan. So there are a lot of tension points but I';m not that pessimistic, no. But I do think the world is more dangerous than what it was a decade ago, and it is as well that Australia';s domestic economic strength is what it is because it means that we can play a more active and effective role in that very difficult world.
MITCHELL:
Pretty frightening stuff coming from the Head of Defence. I mean…
PRIME MINISTER:
I';m not sure of the context in which he said it, but you';re asking me my view. No, I';m… well I';ve stated my view.
MITCHELL:
Okay, now tax reform.
PRIME MINISTER:
Mmm, tax reform.
MITCHELL:
Well, yeah you said it was tax reform. But the tax take is up, up significantly. How does that equate to tax reform? 31.8% GDP up.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you';re talking there about Federal and State?
MITCHELL:
Yeah.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, well we don';t control the State tax take. I don';t think the Federal tax take is up by… what figure did you use? I don';t think it';s up to that. I thought the Federal tax take was in… was in the middle or the low 20s…
MITCHELL:
It is arguable…
PRIME MINISTER:
I beg your pardon?
MITCHELL:
It depends whether you put the GST into it as well.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, if you';re looking at all taxes, I mean that 31 figure, I';m not…
MITCHELL:
Well you took $22.5 billion more… more last year. So that';s up.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you always take a lot more because you, you';re coming off a higher base.
MITCHELL:
So where';s the tax reform?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh well, because income tax is lower. I mean just…
MITCHELL:
But we';re paying more.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, but hang on. Just because the dollar amount is higher doesn';t mean to say you';re paying more, because you';re earning more money. I mean if you were earning…
MITCHELL:
It';s $22.5 billion up…
PRIME MINISTER:
If you were earning $100,000 this year and you were only earning 50 last year, of course you';re paying more tax this year. Doesn';t mean to say you';re more highly taxed though. The more highly you earn, you can… you';re earning more money.
MITCHELL:
The Commonwealth took $175 billion in taxes, which is up $22.5 billion which is… I don';t know what the percentage is, but it';s well ahead of inflation.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well maybe it, the reason for that is there are more people in work.
MITCHELL:
That';s a hell of a lot of people in work.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, well I';m, I';d really have to deconstruct that figure before pleading guilty.
MITCHELL:
Yeah, but the principle – 31.8% of the GDP goes in tax. Is that too much?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I mean, in isolation, yes. Given the things that we have to do, no. I mean it';s always, nobody likes paying tax. I understand that. But everybody wants better schools, better hospitals. They want a strong defence force. And it';s the job of the Government to balance all of those things. And it';s a constant tension, and it ought to be too, because Governments ought to be under the hammer all the time to keep taxes down. And I think, you know, I think it';s a perfectly legitimate thing for people in your position to pursue.
MITCHELL:
Will we be paying more tax after the Budget?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh well, you';d better wait until the Budget comes down but the record of this Government and this Treasurer and this Prime Minister is not a record of Governments and people who put up taxes. In fact we have a very good record of not putting up taxes. When we have a number of election undertakings to…
MITCHELL:
But those figures have been going up ever since you';ve been in Government.
PRIME MINISTER:
But Neil…
MITCHELL:
When you took over [inaudible]
PRIME MINISTER:
You';ve really got to talk about the discretionary rates that we control. I mean the level of activity in the economy and the mix of activity in the economy can have an influence on the aggregate tax take in nominal dollars.
MITCHELL:
[inaudible] were below 30% when you took over, and it';s now 31.8%.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look, I mean if you look at the percentages. The top rate of income tax now, for what 80% of the community, is 30 cents in the dollar. It used to be much higher than that. We have a higher tax free threshold now. We';ve even achieved some reduction in the very high marginal rates, not as much as we would have liked to. We were stopped from doing it, going further by the Labor Party and the Democrats. Now, we did bring in a GST, which for all the teething troubles in certain areas, is now bedded down. I hardly ever get a complaint about the GST now. I';m not saying it';s perfect, and that might provoke a flurry of phonecalls to your station, but I do think people have accommodated to it and it is a far better system.
MITCHELL:
I';m just arguing that it hasn';t worked because the tax take';s gone up, when it was supposed to go down.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the purpose of the GST was to shift, well there was a number of purposes. One of them was to shift the burden away from personal income tax, and we';ve certainly achieved that to some extent. Personal income tax burdens are lower. We have certainly achieved a long term strengthening of the revenue base for services offered by State Governments. And State Governments are going to be, and Peter Beattie acknowledges this because he said it a few weeks ago, they';re going to be much better off as a result of the GST. They';ll be able to spend more money on things like education, schools and hospitals.
MITCHELL:
Just… just finally too, there';s a bit of a word around Canberra. Now, Peter Costello did a great job as a stand up comic the other day. But there';s a bit of a word around Canberra that Tony Abbott is firming as a likely replacement for you. Have you heard that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Good try. No.
MITCHELL:
Haven';t heard that?
PRIME MINISTER:
No. Look I, can I just say on all of that, I';m too preoccupied with all the things I want to do in Government.
MITCHELL:
Have you discussed it with Peter Costello yet?
PRIME MINISTER:
I haven';t had any discussion of that kind with Peter.
MITCHELL:
Do you think you will, or will it just happen?
PRIME MINISTER:
What?
MITCHELL:
Your replacement.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good one, Neil.
MITCHELL:
Is that it? Thank you for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Have a very nice weekend.
[Ends]