Subjects: ASIO raids; Bali; Bob Carr; US Patriot Act; Dennis Richardson; Iraq; banks; Governor-General; taxes; Australia Day.
E&OE...........
MITCHELL:
Mr Howard, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Neil.
MITCHELL:
What is your answer to Indonesia?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we have done what any country in our situation would have to do. We will naturally respond to any Indonesian concerns but what we have done is in accordance with Australian law and is in accordance with international law. There were reasons for those raids and I defend 100 percent what ASIO has done. It is essential in the national interest that ASIO have the capacity on occasions, acting within Australian law to do what it has done, and I find it amazing that people could seriously question the national need for this to occur. It is not targeting Muslims. That is ridiculous. These raids relate to investigations concerning individuals. People who claim that this is in some way targeting Islamic sections of Australia are just, in my opinion, deliberately trying to create a difficulty that does not and ought not to exist. We have no argument with decent law-abiding Islamic Australians any more than we have any argument with decent law-abiding Catholic Australians, Protestant Australians or atheist Australians or Jewish Australians. I mean it';s very interesting – many of the people who are saying that we';ve got to keep religion out of this are sometimes the first people to sort of say that the raid has been on an Islamic Australian instead of it being a raid on an Australian. MITCHELL:
Are you disappointed by the Indonesian reaction given that I thought we were working together in this area?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I haven';t seen all the detail of it. I';ve just heard a press report. I don';t think we should see an inquiry from the Foreign Ministry as necessarily being a strong negative reaction from Indonesia, but we will go ahead with what is occurring. As Dennis Richardson said yesterday, mere attendance at a meeting addressed by somebody would not have been reason enough for raids of this kind.
MITCHELL:
There is more information.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the reasons are sound. I can';t say more than that.
MITCHELL:
Do you know what they are?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I obviously know some things that I can';t talk about.
MITCHELL:
No fair enough. I mean ASIO wouldn';t necessarily tell you, would they?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh yes ASIO would be very up front with me, I can assure you.
MITCHELL:
I found it a little surprising Indonesia would complain given this is the country that said al Qaeda didn';t exist within Indonesia before the Bali bombing.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that may be strange, but look I don';t want to overreact to the Indonesian reaction. It may not be all that deep seated and we will be going ahead with what we think is in the national interest. And can I say that the cooperation between Australia and Indonesia investigating the atrocity in Bali has been very good. And I';m also very appreciative of the response to particular representations that we have put at a high level to Indonesia concerning the handling of the bomb site and other aspects of the investigation, and the Indonesian response to that has been very good.
MITCHELL:
How many raids have there been?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I';d have to… you know I can';t tell you the precise number at the moment. I';d need to get advice on that.
MITCHELL:
But it has been Sydney, Melbourne and Perth.
PRIME MINISTER:
There have been a number and there could be more, let me put it that way. I don';t want to hold myself to a particular figure because I might subsequently be accused by somebody, not you, of misleading the public.
MITCHELL:
Well what is your answer to the claim that they';re heavy handed, that doors have been smashed down, weapons have been carried, and the claim is that wasn';t necessary.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don';t agree with that. When you are carrying out an investigation and when you have a warrant to do it, you are entitled to anticipate that you could meet hostility, you could meet resistance, and in those circumstances I defend everything that ASIO has done.
MITCHELL:
Will there be any charges as a result of the raids?
PRIME MINISTER:
I can';t say.
MITCHELL:
Has there been any evidence of terrorism discovered?
PRIME MINISTER:
I haven';t had a full report on the outcome of the raids. I might not necessarily be able to say what is in that report when I do receive it, but I haven';t as yet received it.
MITCHELL:
I guess the point is – were they successful?
PRIME MINISTER:
I';m not going to say at this stage.
MITCHELL:
Is it correct that they were seeking sleeper cells of the JI organisation?
PRIME MINISTER:
I';d rather not say exactly what they were seeking but I can say this – that there is a generic concern that there could be sleepers, to use that once again very generic expression. I can';t really say more than that. It's a situation where I don't want to use alarmist language, I don't think that helps anybody. On the other hand, I don't want to understate that not only as a result of what occurred in Bali, but now ever since the 11th of September last year, there has been a different atmosphere as far as possible terrorism in Australia concerned. And this country is at risk. It could happen here. The likelihood of it happening here is greater now than it was before the 12th of October and everybody should be aware of that. And we have to as a nation respond in a firm resolute way, but in a way that respects the traditional liberties of this country. And I take the opportunity again to say that this is not targeting Islam in Australia. There are several hundred thousand Australians of Muslim faith and they are part of our community, they should be respected. And in return, they should continue, as they have in the past, to behave as part of our community as well.
MITCHELL:
Is it a time that traditional liberties in this country have to be reassessed?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't think the fundamentals should be reassessed, no. It is not a time to do that. And in a way, if you do that too much you are conceding victories to the terrorists. I think it is a time to look at whether all of the laws we have are strong enough. You can deal with this problem without overturning the fundamentals of a free society, but we may have to put up with some greater inconvenience or some tighter laws than we might have tolerated in a different age.
MITCHELL:
Is it a matter of…?
PRIME MINISTER:
That has been the experience in America and Britain. And I noticed for example on the other side of politics, in Australia the NSW Labor Premier, Bob Carr, has said that he strongly supports measures in laws like the American Patriot Act and the United Kingdom anti-terrorism legislation. Now, my recollection without at this stage looking at those pieces of legislation is that they contain provisions which are stronger than what the Australian Parliament has thus far allowed to be legislated here.
MITCHELL:
Do you think stronger provisions will be necessary in this country?PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I have said that we would be looking at all the laws and I've also said that we would like the ASIO legislation passed as soon as possible. It is in before a Senate committee or going to a Senate committee. We haven't got it through the Senate yet and I think that's a shame. And we'll be continuing to press very strongly for it to go through.
MITCHELL:
Do you liken the situation we're in to a war?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't want to use that language. I don't feel that it's a comfortable analogy. I think this is a conflict of a different kind. When you say war, you think of armies, and you think of air raids, and you think of naval battles - that's what we understand the language to mean. This is a conflict of a very different kind and we have to use different methods. And we have to recognise that there is a worldwide character to it. Dennis Richardson said yesterday that he was sure that al Qaeda was involved in the Bali bombing and we also have to recognise the ultimate nightmare of course would be for terrorists to get their hands on weapons of mass destruction.
MITCHELL:
He also said that he believed if they did, they would use them. Do you agree with that assessment?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I do. I mean, these people are fanatics. They don't care about anybody else's life; they don't care about their own lives. You are dealing here with a new level of evil and human depravity that has no regard for individual life or life at all. And when you're dealing with who are outside the normal canons and constraints of human behaviour, even evil people as we normally encounter them, have an instinct to self-preservation, a selfish instinct to self-preservation - these people don't. And I have no doubt that if they got their hands on weapons of mass destruction, they would have no scruples about using them, none whatsoever.
MITCHELL:
Do you agree also with the head of ASIO that terrorist attacks will hit Australian soil soon?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think there is real danger of that. Yes, I would like to believe that there wasn't, but I think you have to say that… I just can only use my language, everybody uses their own language in these situations, and my language is that it could happen here.
MITCHELL:
Do we need a new Minister, a special sort of home security minister as was introduced in the United States and I think the UK?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, at this stage, I don't think so. Bear in mind in the UK, the national Government is responsible for all… has the responsibility for all police things, which in a federation we don't in Australia. Look, I've got an open-mind about the bureaucratic structure, but the name of the department, or having another minister… I mean, you don't solve these things by bureaucratic and ministerial rearrangements. You solve them by having good intelligence agencies and having cooperation between the Commonwealth and the State governments and I';m pleased so far about that cooperation and I hope it continues and for my part I will not hesitate to enlist the aid of the State governments where necessary. I know that they will work with me because they told me at the meeting we had at the day of the National Memorial Service in Canberra. But as to whether you rearrange the departments, I have made significant change already. I';ve located the coordination arrangements between the Commonwealth and the State in my department rather than the Attorney General';s department. It';s not a criticism of him, it';s just logical it should be within the department of the head of government.
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister is it fair to say the Australian people need to trust their security forces at the moment?
PRIME MINISTER:
They do. That';s not to say like all human agencies they are not open to scrutiny and criticism. They accept that. Dennis Richardson knows full well that when you have something like this there';s always a lot of scrutiny, scrutiny of and interest in the agencies. But I';m satisfied at their level of competence and commitment. That doesn';t mean to say they can';t do better, it doesn';t mean to say that you mightn';t have different arrangements and I don';t have any in mind at present but I think we are well served. But gee it';s a very hard job because you get acres of raw intelligence everyday and you have to analyse all of that and you have to make judgements.
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister we';ve discussed this issue many times since September 11 and your approach has always been a very moderate one. You certainly don';t want to be alarmist. I don';t think you';re being alarmist now but I would suggest that your language today is up a notch, is even more significant in the way you are discussing the dangers to this country.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I';m saying what I think. There has been no time in my political life that I';ve owed the Australian people my candour and my openness more than I do at the present time. I';ve always tried on every issue to be open with people but I am more worried now than I was. There is a pattern. I agree with Dennis Richardson that Al Qaeda was almost certainly connected with the bombing in Bali. It was well planned, it was ruthless, it was cruel, and it';s taken the lives almost certainly of up to one-hundred Australians and that is a terrible thing and it is very close. We are an open country and we pride ourselves on that. We have to some how or other find a balance between the preservation of our traditional and historic openness and friendliness with the need for greater security. And it';s a huge challenge.
MITCHELL:
We need to take a break. I hope you won';t take this as a gratuitous political question but I would argue that there is a need for stability in the community at the moment and the foreseeable future and I would ask whether that will be part of your consideration when you make a decision on whether to stay in the job next year?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think the best way I can answer that is to say that because I don';t have anything to add to what I';ve previously said about that issue I will always try and do what is in the best interests of the Australian community. I feel very committed to serving the people as much as I can at present, I really do. But that, by the way, should not be construed as in any way varying from what I';ve previously said. And right at the moment we have to all work together. This is a very big national challenge. That doesn't mean to say there can't be room for ongoing legitimate political debate in a democracy. I';m not trying to, sort of, expropriate patriotism, I';m not doing that. I don't believe in that. I believe in being patriotic and articulating my own love of country but others can do that who have, and just as passionately, who have different political views. I don't think that this is a time for people to try and do that.
[COMMERCIAL BREAK]
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister, Iraq - still international affairs - given that you've been in Mexico and you've been speaking to the American President, are we closer to action do you believe?
PRIME MINISTER:
The Americans still want a tough resolution. George Bush told me that he wants to settle this peacefully. The military resort is the last resort. And he is working very hard indeed to get a Security Council resolution that will work, that will flush out Saddam Hussein and make sure that the weapons of mass destruction are themselves destroyed.
MITCHELL:
Okay, on to some other issues and it may seem almost trivial by comparison but they are of interest. Westpac profit, another huge one - that's ANZ and Westpac profits just keep going up - fees up 17%, Westpac. They're not listening to your calls of restraint the banks, are they?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that's a hard question to answer because I do believe in profitable banks because profitable banks are stable banks and stable banks are good for depositors. I don't want a country where banks are sailing close to the margin as far as profits are concerned. But having said that, it does put a particular obligation on the banks in relation to the drought. And I want to echo very strongly what John Anderson has said on that. There is a real obligation on Australia's banks to help our farmers through this drought. MITCHELL:
There's been much more speculation about interest rates lately, obviously because the decision's coming. What is the economic impact of this era of uncertainty that we've been discussing this morning?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I think what it does is have some effect on all confidence around the world. It has less an effect on confidence in a strong economy but just as the 11th of September had some effect, quite a big effect, in the United States the Bali outrage will have a lesser effect in Australia because remember it didn't occur in Australia, although it has sadly and dramatically affected many thousands of Australians directly and indirectly, it affected all of us, but it's not quite the same as having the blast in Melbourne or Sydney.
MITCHELL:
You knew Sir John Kerr, obviously.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes.
MITCHELL:
Gough Whitlam, I see, has described him as a drunk, says he was dried out twice and he had to apologise to the Queen for appointing him. Did he have an alcohol problem in your view?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I didn't…look, can I just say that John Kerr has now been dead for a number of years. I don't want to say anything uncharitable about Gough Whitlam.
MITCHELL:
About John Kerr or Gough?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don't want to say anything uncharitable about a living person who formerly occupied my position. I really…you know, Gough's getting old now and I really would rather, I've reached the stage where I don';t really want to have a go at him but heaven's above, there has to be an end to this lack of any semblance of charity. I mean, what is served by dredging up claims like that. I mean, I don't know whether they're true or false, I just don't know, but I mean, what in the name of anything is served by that.
MITCHELL:
Our own Governor-General is under criticism at the moment, Dr Hollingworth, not drinking or anything but do you think that in this environment it would have been preferable if went to the Melbourne Cup as a message?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look, I don't know. I mean, that's a matter for him, what his diary is. But can I just say that the criticism of him in relation to his visit to the Middle East has been very unfair. He couldn';t have gone to Bali in the first few days, neither could I for that matter, we';d have been in the way. I mean in the first couple of days what people had to do was to evacuate the wounded. And it would have been an unnecessary and improper diversion of man power on the ground to have visits by the Governor General or the Prime Minister. And the other point people seem to miss in the criticism, I don';t think the public misses it and I think the critics of the Governor General miss it, is that this involves the murder of up to 100 Australians overseas, it was not an accident, it was deliberate murder and the thought seems to have been there that than in some way the Governor General should have gone to Bali instead of me or before me, or something. Now I';m not quite sure what people are getting at but this is an issue that involved my going there because there were decisions to be made and the public naturally expects their political leader, in this case I say leaders because I included Simon Crean with my party when I went to Bali, being there, and I think people are just taking the opportunity to have another swipe at the Governor General. I mean I don';t think, if he hadn';t been going to Egypt, let me put it this way, I';m not sure that …, I mean he certainly wouldn';t have gone to Bali in the first few days because I';d have told him it was inappropriate.
MITCHELL:
I must say I had been one of his critics and I was a bit disappointed that he was saying that he wasn';t going to the Melbourne Cup because he wanted to be on call for the Bali victims, to me that was using the Bali victims…
PRIME MINISTER:
Look as I say I';m not going to get into adjudicating on his diary. But in relation to going to Bali I think those who have got it in for him are taking advantage of the circumstances and will continue to do so to have a go at him.
MITCHELL:
(inaudible) report in the Financial Review particularly tax hit on the rich, $1 billion in taxes from 24 people, that';s a hell of a lot for each individual, $1 billion and 24 people. Will they be charged?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the law will be applied, but I don';t have a say in that, neither does the Treasurer. The Tax Commissioner administers the tax law under the act and he';s quite outside our reach as far as individuals are concerned. All I can generally say is that everybody should contribute their legal obligations as far as taxes are concerned, they should pay what they';re meant to pay under the law and if everybody paid what they were meant to pay we';d all pay a bit less.
MITCHELL:
Divide 24 into 1 billion, that';s a lot of money being avoided there.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well…
MITCHELL:
More to come?
PRIME MINISTER:
The message is that it';s not being avoided.
MITCHELL:
Not now. More to come?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well if it';s due I hope so.
MITCHELL:
Okay, can I just ask you, sort of back to where we started in a sense, Australia Day this year, I';m sorry next year, it strikes me as going to be perhaps one of the most important we';ve had.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes.
MITCHELL:
There is a need for and there';s an urge for I think a sense of nationalism, a sense of pride, a sense of community, all those things that we';ve talked about. Do you agree that Australia Day next year will need a particular focus and should perhaps have an additional effort from the people of Australia?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think it will happen, what the Bali atrocity has reminded us again is that in our own way we are a deeply patriotic and nationalistic people. I';ve always believed that, but we express it differently, we express it in our own Australian way and I believe that the Australian mateship, culture, the sense of nationalism, pulling together at a time of crisis, the outpouring of compassion and emotion as well as the maintenance of the traditional laconic tough image we have of ourselves, I mean all of those things came out, I don';t think you will need to confect or manufacture a greater interest in Australia Day at the beginning of next year, I think it will happen automatically. We are a deeply nationalistic people and I think that';s a tremendous thing and our sense of unity and national purpose transcends other differences at a time of challenge and, sad though the events were, that is a deeply reassuring reality.
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister thank you for your time.
[ends]