Subjects: heroin shooting galleries; interest rates; illegal immigrants; student protest at Melbourne University; customs laws; Spy plane incident; industrial relations; Democrats' leadership; beer excise.
E&OE................................
MITCHELL:
Mr Howard good morning.
MITCHELL:
Good morning Neil.
MITCHELL:
Mr Howard, a legal decision in Sydney's opened the way for Australia's first legalised heroin shooting gallery. Is there anything you can do to stop that?
PRIME MINISTER:
No there's nothing at all we can do to stop that, nothing at all. It's entirely within the control of the state government. I don't agree with heroin injecting rooms or galleries but it's a policy decision taken by the New South Wales government. There's nothing legally we can do to stop it.
MITCHELL:
But how can they get heroin?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well presumably they will have capacity to get it without any assistance from us and that's their challenge. I mean I am not wishing the project..it's not something that I support. We won't amend the law to allow the importation of heroin. But when I say there's nothing I can do to stop it, there's nothing I can do to stop them setting up the facility. The question of where they get heroin from and how they handle things is a matter for them to deal with within the confines of law within New South Wales. I've made it clear that I won't do anything and the federal government won't do anything to relax federal laws to allow the importation of any substances.
MITCHELL:
If it's seen to work will you review your attitude to legalised..?
PRIME MINISTER:
That is a very hypothetical question and I doubt very much if it will be seen to work. I don't know what the measure of something like that being seen to work is. It sends..
MITCHELL:
Fewer deaths I suppose.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it sends a very bad signal. Perhaps some would argue that. Others might argue that to the extent that it makes the practice seemingly more socially acceptable it might encourage more people to take it up which could in turn lead to more deaths. I don't know.
MITCHELL:
In Victoria at the same time there's a suggestion, or a plan, for free methadone and other drug rehabilitation therapies for teenagers provided by governments. Do you think that's a good idea?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'm in favour of any measure taken by governments that can get people to break the habit.
MITCHELL:
Why just teenagers though? I mean if you're going [inaudible] everybody don't you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, well you're asking whether I agree with it. I'm just saying that even though it might be limited if it's going to help people get off to have it well that's a good thing.
MITCHELL:
Interest rates Mr Howard. The banks pass it on at once..the reductions on at once to new customers. They take longer with existing customers. Is that fair?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I don't think it's fair that there be any delay. Our banks are doing very well. They're very profitable. People should get the benefit of interest rate cuts as soon as possible.
MITCHELL:
Does that go both ways? What about the deeming rate for pensioners? When will you change that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we're examining that. There are a number of things we need to take into account in relation to that. You've got to remember that although interest rate cuts are very good news for borrowers, they're not such good news for investors and I want people who are living on investments, particularly retired people, to know that I understand very much that falling interest rates are not much joy for them. It does in many cases represent a bit of a squeeze on their incomes. I understand that.
MITCHELL:
The deeming rate is something you can do something about though. I should explain this is the rate which the government deems pensioners are earning interest at whether they are or not. If that stays high that's unfair to the pensioners. It should come down at once.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we're looking at that.
MITCHELL:
When's it due to change?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's being examined right at the moment.
MITCHELL:
One of the banks is due to change in June. Presumably it will be done before then won't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we would want to treat pensioners fairly as quickly as possible.
MITCHELL:
Do you know what the rate is now?
PRIME MINISTER:
Off hand I don't know.
MITCHELL:
All right. We'll find out. The trouble with illegal immigrants. Is the Government getting tougher with illegal immigrants? There's more riots, more problems, more powers to be given to the guards.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well this is a very difficult issue Neil. People resent people coming to this country unlawfully. But we are a compassionate society and we've got to look after people and treat them fairly. I reckon the authorities and the Immigration Minister Mr Ruddock are handling a very difficult issue in very sensitive balanced way. You can't accept people who come here illegally then getting away with trashing property and rioting and defying authority. On the other hand you are dealing with a lot of people who fled from very desperate situations who feel persecuted. Some of them have very strong cases to put. On the other hand if the message gets around the world that this country is easy to get into and almost impossible to be expelled from then you're going to attract more and more people and that's going to create a bigger and bigger problem and it's particularly unfair on those people who want to come to Australia legitimately and lawfully and who wait their turn in the queue, often for many years. And then they say what's the point of playing by the rules if you can get here illegally and then kick up a fuss and be allowed to stay.
MITCHELL:
It's reported that the guards will have power to strip search illegal immigrants including children as young as 10. Is that necessary?
PRIME MINISTER:
Neil, put like that it sounds stark and authoritarian. But if you are dealing with situations where people are using children in an exploitative way which sometimes occurs then I think that kind of thing is justified.
MITCHELL:
Even at 10 years old?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it depends on the circumstances Neil. I mean look, you can ask me a question like that in those sort of emotional terms and it does sound severe. On the other hand if children are being used by people to conceal things and those things might do damage to people who are only doing their job in trying to protect the community maybe you might have a different attitude.
MITCHELL:
Do you think Australia's being seen as hard hearted with this? There's the incident with the Pakistani man, the self immolation. Is Australia being seen as hard heartened around the world and if it is does that concern you? Is that the message you want.?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Neil I don't think Australia is being seen as hard hearted around the world. The incidence of people doing desperate things in order to bring about a particular immigration result, that's something that other countries have had for generations. I can remember when I lived in the United Kingdom very briefly in the 1960s that kind of thing would occur in relation to people. And I think we are too ready to put this country down in the eyes of the rest of the world. I don't think we're seen as hard hearted. Do you know we take after Canada the most number of refugees of any country in the world on a per capita basis? We take more refugees per capita than any country other than Canada. Now that is not the behaviour and the projection of the image of a country that is insensitive and hard hearted.
MITCHELL:
I guess you'd then wonder if we're seen as a soft touch. I mean is it one or the other?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I mean you asked me a moment ago if we're seen as hard hearted, now you're saying we're seen as a soft hearted. I think what you've done is to highlight the dilemma and the extraordinary difficulty. Because there really are two points of view on this. There are those people in the community who think that people should be able to come here willy nilly in any fashion and there are many others who believe very strongly that it's too easy to come into this country. And we're trying to balance those. We want to be a good international citizen, we are a decent society that treats people according to the rule of law, we always will. But we're not going to become a soft touch to the rest of the world and I don't think other countries expect us to be.
MITCHELL:
Fair enough. We'll take some calls for the Prime Minister, Paul go ahead. Yes Paul.
CALLER:
Oh hi. Yeah I just wanted to ask a question about something that came out of the occupation of Melbourne University yesterday.
MITCHELL:
I should explain to the Prime Minister students occupied one of the buildings of Melbourne University. I'm told a couple of hundred thousand dollars damage, 70 arrests.
PRIME MINISTER:
And a very constructive contribution to learning.
CALLER:
Well I was one of the students passing by underneath, and I got a copy of a letter that was distributed there. It was a letter from David Kemp to Alan Gilbert.
MITCHELL:
That's the letter stolen by the students.
CALLER:
Yeah well the letter outlines that the Government isn't prepared to find a fund, capital development pool funding, for the University's proposed restructure of the Institute of Land and Food Resources. And I was just wondering if this has got anything to do with the upcoming federal election and the Coalition trying to secure regional votes and not wanting to have any redundancies in regional areas?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I would have thought perhaps the occupation of the university had far more to do with making a political point than anything David Kemp has said in that letter. Look it clearly hasn't. I think the occupation and those sorts of pieces of behaviour, always lose more support than they gain. And they're quite unacceptable. We've just put $3 billion into a package which is designed to back Australia's ability in areas of science and innovation. We're going to put a lot of money into postgraduate degrees, we're going to create something like another 22,000 science and mathematics places in universities. We're putting more resources into education, not less, as the students demonstrating at Melbourne University seem to be saying. I mean we're putting more resources into education at all levels, not less, and I can't for the life of me understand how they think they gain anything by doing $200,000 worth of damage. I mean that only hardens attitudes in the community against providing more resources, and I think that's a pity because we need to provide more resources for education.
MITCHELL:
Thank you Paul. And I should say we'll be looking at that issue later in the programme. From my information the damage is atrocious. Andrew go ahead please.
CALLER:
Yes good morning Neil and good morning Mr Howard. My question is in relation to strip searching, in particular children possibly as young as 10. This, does a strip search constitute, is it an inspection of the body? Or do they actually probe the body for drugs or something like that. Because obviously there's an issue with a young female or a young male under the age of 10 years of age being actually physically probed. I just wanted some clarification of that from you Mr Howard.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I would have to get some very careful formal advice before I tried to give you a strict definition. I'm not going to try and do that. But I will try, if you leave your name and address I will try and get a strict definition because these things are sensitive and I don't want to try and give a description that may not be accurate and then held to account for it later on. Somebody popping up in a few weeks time with a transcript of what I've said and said ah you've misled the public. Well I'll get some strict, careful advice on this. I understand that it can mean slightly different things according to circumstances and I know there is a sensitive attitude taken by customs officers engaged in searches.
MITCHELL:
What would be your attitude to cavity searches.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well my attitude is that I'm going to find what the strict definition is and then I'll let you know.
MITCHELL:
Yeah but would you have an attitude towards it being done, regardless of definition should there be cavity searches?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well my understanding is that in some circumstances that does occur, but it only occurs in particular and exceptional circumstances, but I want to get more information on a strict definition of what is involved here before I try to answer that question in more detail.
MITCHELL:
Andrew thanks for calling. Mr Prime Minister just looking at the Age, I don't know if this is accurate, it says body cavity searches will be prohibited, so.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that was my, I mean I understood it was going to be done very sensitively but not withstanding the respect I have for the Age's accuracy on things like that, I'd like to check it out.
MITCHELL:
Fair enough. We'll take a break, come back with more from the Prime Minister.
[commercial break]
MITCHELL:
Mr Howard, the spy plane incident - China and the United States - given that Australia has pretty good relations with both countries, is there any role for us to play here?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, if there were I wouldn't be talking about it. I'm not suggesting at this stage there is but it's a difficult issue. It's an accident. It was an unintended incident. I understand the Chinese sensitivity but I also understand that the Americans are quite entitled to ask for and expect the return of their aircrew and their service personnel. It's not as if it was a deliberately provocative or unfriendly act. I mean, we all know these sorts of.well, it's been widely rumoured that these things go on and it's not as if the plane was trying to do any damage to China's air space or Chinese property.
MITCHELL:
Was it in Chinese air space or not? There's a debate about that.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it's my understanding that it wasn't.
MITCHELL:
Three matters to do with Ministers - Wilson Tuckey, did he use the 'f' word in Parliament?
PRIME MINISTER:
I wasn't there. I don't know. He withdrew. I made it clear that I don't approve of any use of that language by anybody in Parliament. The incident's closed as far as I'm concerned. He did withdraw and the Speaker dealt with it and that's it.
MITCHELL:
Michael Wooldridge, well, in a sense, being suggested that he's guilty of a form insider trading by passing on information, will you investigate that further?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the facts as given to me don't disclose that at all.
MITCHELL:
Well, that's the allegation.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes well, the Opposition makes allegations all the time. This Opposition makes all sorts of allegations and if they have some evidence, well, let's have it. But at the moment they're on a fishing expedition. Michael has clearly denied the allegation and I don't see any reason for any further investigation because there's nothing further to investigate.
MITCHELL:
Peter Costello, would he be a good Opposition Leader?
PRIME MINISTER:
He's not planning on that and I'm not planning on it either.
MITCHELL:
I understand that but he's raised it, he's raised it.
PRIME MINISTER:
I want him to be a very good Treasurer and he is a very good Treasurer and my aim is for him to go on being Treasurer in my Government up to the election and after the election if he wants that job in a third Coalition term Government.
MITCHELL:
If he wants the job, you'd move him if he didn't, would you?
PRIME MINISTER:
He has the right to decide. But I want to make it, hang on, I want to make it perfectly clear, I think he's doing a fantastic job as Treasurer and as far as I'm concerned he can be Treasurer in a Coalition Government for as long as he wants.
MITCHELL:
And he'd be a good Opposition Leader.
PRIME MINISTER:
Look it's a completely hypothetical question. I'm very focused on doing good things in Government for the rest of the year and on winning the election. It's going to be tough but I'm still very positive and upbeat.
MITCHELL:
Do you think it's turned around a bit for your in the past couple of weeks?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I think what's happened is that people have started to focus on the choice. They've started to say, okay, we've belted the Government around now unremittingly for three months, but gee, if they're not there we've got the alternative and they start to think of wall-to-wall Labor governments. You know if Labor wins at the end of this year you will, I think, for the first time perhaps since World War II - I'd have to check that out precisely - have a Federal Labor government and Labor governments in five of the six States.
MITCHELL:
And what does that mean?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that means, for example, in the area of industrial relations you will have an unrivalled opportunity for the unions to move in and demand of Labor governments changes backwards in relation to things like union power, people being forced to donate to unions even though they don't want to belong to unions, and the removal of individual agreements, the forced entry of unions into workshops, particularly small businesses, where they're not wanted. You see, if you have both a Federal Labor government and a State Labor government, they have wall-to-wall power to legislate and I think that is an horrific prospect for particularly small businesses around the country. And I think one of the things that's happened over the past couple of weeks is people have begun to contemplate - because Labor's ahead in the polls and people are talking about the possibility of a change of Federal government. I always believe in being upfront about these things. At the end of the year you'll either have a re-elected Coalition Government led by me or you'll have a Labor government led by Mr Beazley. Now, people have got to focus on that choice and what it means. And they're not only thinking about the things I've just mentioned - the menace of blanket wall-to-wall union power pushing a Labor government around - but also, of course, they remember the high interest rates, the 17% interest rates, the $85 billion of Government debt and the 11% unemployment.
MITCHELL:
Can I ask you about the Democrats, we'll have a decision today, are you happy to work with Natasha Stott-Despoja?
PRIME MINISTER:
I will work with whoever the chosen Leader is.
MITCHELL:
Are they still the fairies at the bottom of the garden, do you think?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I found in relation to my dealings with Meg Lees that she was a person of honesty and candour who could be relied upon to keep her word. She disagrees with me on a lot of things. I mean, I understand that the Democrats are significantly to the left of the Coalition on industrial relations. I mean, they won't help us reform the unfair dismissal laws that would give relief to small business and in the views of small business generate 50,000 more jobs.
MITCHELL:
Well, would it change dealing with Senator Stott-Despoja?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh, I think it would probably be more difficult.
MITCHELL:
Do you?
PRIME MINISTER:
In relation to things like industrial relations, probably yes. Although, the negotiations that we did have several years ago were with Cheryl Kernot. When she was Leader Peter Reith negotiated with her. Of course, she doesn't want to own up to what she agreed to then now that she's a member of the Australian Labor Party and is forced to toe the union line.
MITCHELL:
It's reported you had dinner with a group of Melbourne businessmen at Ron Walker's home last weekend. Obviously we don't intrude on a private meeting but what did you take away from that, what's the message you get from business?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the message I get from business generally is that things are still very strong, although, the building industry, particularly housing, went into a nose dive last year and is now starting to come out of that because of falling interest rates and the doubling of the home grant for new homes.
MITCHELL:
We've got another clothing manufacturer announcing its closure here today, Supreme Three. It's on top of Bradmill. I think there's 300 people at Supreme Three. That's not healthy.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, look, but Neil, even in times of great buoyancy you will get firms closing down because of changed market conditions. And I hope that the workers there are well looked after. We have a safety net scheme if any of their entitlements are at risk. And I again call on the Victorian Premier to match us dollar for dollar in relation to that scheme. It puzzles me that you have State Labor governments like Mr Bracks' and Mr Carr's that won't join us in providing a safety net for workers. What they want to do is put a new tax on small business to fund these sorts of things. What we're doing is providing a safety net out of general revenue and it would be twice as generous if the State governments would join us. But to my great surprise State Labor governments won't do that.
MITCHELL:
It's reported in The Age today, Kerry and Kay Danes in Laos say that they're being asked for money to get out. They've asked, pleaded with the Government to step up pressure, the Federal Government.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we're certainly doing that. I mean, our very clear message through the Foreign Minister is charge them and deal with them through the proper processes of the law or let them go, and we're going to continue to increase the pressure. It's a very sad circumstance. They are getting regular consular access. They have mobile phone contact with their children in Australia and we're continuing to push very hard on a diplomatic front.
MITCHELL:
The beer issue, now that's obviously blown a hole or another hole in budget planning. Do you feel that was your responsibility? It was based around, in the end, an argument about what you said about the price.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the history of this is that all the documentation said that the 1.9 applied to packaged beer. We never said in the documents we put out that it applied to draught beer. And one of the answers I gave on a radio programme was ambiguous, I've said that, and on the basis of that the brewers ran a quite ferocious campaign. I mean, it was perhaps, you know, we didn't like it but if the Labor Party and the Democrats had said, look, we want the excise cut in future but, no, that wasn't enough, they wanted us to refund money that had already been collected. And if we hadn't have struck a deal with the Democrats then the result of the Labor Party's approach would have been that we would have refunded the money to the breweries.
MITCHELL:
What are all these holes going to do to the budget?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we have less money to spend on other things. I mean, the Labor Party obviously believes that refunding excise already collected is more important than spending that money on things like education and health. Although, as a result of the deal I've struck with the Democrats, no thanks to the Labor Party, that refunded money will go into a foundation to fight alcohol abuse and petrol sniffing, which is, if you're going to refund it, I'd rather put it into that than refund it to the breweries.
MITCHELL:
Mr Howard, here's an opportunity to tell everybody in Melbourne first, who's going to be the Governor-General?
PRIME MINISTER:
There will be an announcement made about that at the appropriate time, in the appropriate way. And the person to fill the position will be a very distinguished Australian.
MITCHELL:
When will it be made?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm not going to speculate about that.
MITCHELL:
Fair enough. Have you seen the speculation in the papers today, the list of people?
PRIME MINISTER:
I read the papers thoroughly.
MITCHELL:
Have they got the list right?
PRIME MINISTER:
There are a lot of interesting stories in the papers.
MITCHELL:
A woman.
PRIME MINISTER:
There are a lot of interesting stories in the papers.
MITCHELL:
Thank you very much for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Okay, Neil.
MITCHELL:
Bye, bye.
PRIME MINISTER:
See you later.
[Ends]