Subjects: Illegal immigrants.
E&OE................................
MITCHELL:
In the studio with me the Prime Minister, Mr Howard good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Neil.
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister I believe the most asked question in the country this morning is will John Howard back down? Will you?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I won't. I believe that it is in Australia's national interest that we draw a line on what is increasingly becoming an uncontrollable number of illegal arrivals in this country. My starting point for that strong position is that this country is the second most generous in the world after Canada in taking refugees. I totally reject some of the international criticism that we are inhumane. Some of that criticism is coming from countries and from people who are far less generous in taking refugees than is Australia. On a per capita basis Australia takes more refugees than any country other than Canada. And we will continue to do that.
MITCHELL:
The UN Human Rights Commissioner Mary Robinson today has urged you to allow them to come on shore. She actually said to Australians look into your heart and put pressure on the Australian government.
PRIME MINISTER:
Australians have looked into their hearts far more genuinely than many other countries. And I repeat, apart from Canada we take more refugees per capita than any country in the world. So I say to our critics, we are humane, we are a country that has looked into our hearts. We have a long tradition of taking refugees and that tradition will be maintained. What we are saying though is that we are not willing unconditionally to take people who arrive here illegally. They are displacing people who's claims for refugee status are more meritorious than are theirs. It is a difficult issue. But we believe we do have to take a position in relation to these people that says we're just not going to go on accepting a situation where for practical purposes Australia is seen as a country of easy destination even if you do not have a genuine refugee claim.
MITCHELL:
It strikes me that there are two problems. One is the one you've outlined and that is the message, that is the policy for the future. The other is the short-term humanitarian issue of these people in not very good conditions.
PRIME MINISTER:
No Neil, Neil, clearly I don't want them to be on that ship any more than necessary although we have obviously relieved their position a lot. The medical position is nowhere near as originally described. We have provided a number of comforts and additional things, food, water, a good supply of medicines. We have a helicopter taking now additional facilities out. So clearly the situation remains unresolved for a number of days at least, perhaps even longer. And I have to make it plain that nobody should assume that this is going to be resolved overnight? These things never are. And there is a tendency for people to say once you have a, sort of a, how shall we say, something of a stand-off, a stale mate, people are saying well it's got to be resolved tomorrow. I mean these things are never resolved tomorrow. They always take a while. If they could be resolved tomorrow they wouldn't in a sense arise in the first place. And so, it is clear to me that it will not be resolved immediately. In the meantime we're doing everything we can to make their conditions as bearable as possible.
MITCHELL:
The longer it goes the worse those conditions become obviously.
PRIME MINISTER:
They do become more difficult.
MITCHELL:
Will that influence your thinking? The humanitarian issue of how these people are coping with the situation.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Neil, there are a lot of things that are obviously exercising my mind at the present time. I have a responsibility to the Australian nation to protect our national interest and our national interest is not served by the view being accepted around the world that people can come here willy-nilly. You just can't as a country and it is not fair either to all of those other people who want to come here and whose claims are judged by the United National High Commission for Refugees as being more meritorious. Every person who comes here illegally keeps somebody else out. And that is a humanitarian consideration. Some of the conditions in which refugees with more meritorious claims are living in refugee camps around the world are pitiful.
MITCHELL:
But those same United Nations officials are now saying Australia should take these people.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well some of those officials are saying that. And look, it is understandable that an official in the United Nations organisation would say well, the easy solution is for Australia to take them. I can understand them saying that. But I'm saying on behalf of Australia that we have been doing this now for a long time. The situation for us is getting worse. And we are not willing to go along with a situation where we continue to have to accept increasing numbers of illegal immigrants. I mean if we were to now announce after everything that has happened that we're going to take these people in do you seriously think, does anybody seriously think that we will have any chance of negotiating control arrangements with another country, with Indonesia. I don't believe so, I mean if we were to take them now what the world would say is well providing you hold out long enough and providing we put enough international pressure on Australia in the end because it's a warm hearted humane country they'll take these people. Now we are a warm hearted humane country but we want to make sure our warm hearts and our humanity are both extended to the most meritorious refugee cases in the world and the only way you can have that happen is for the whole assessment process of refugees and people who want to be accepted as refugees to be done by the international body. I mean we want these people assessed, their status assessed by the United Nations High Commission for Refugees and then on the basis of that assessment well so their destination will be determined.
MITCHELL:
You say we're a warm hearted country and a humane country but the international reaction is not just Mary Robinson, I mean we've been described as an arrogant white fortress and an international bully, do you believe that this is harming Australia in the eyes of the world?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well some people are critical of us, others are more understanding I noticed maybe on the other side of politics of me but I notice the British Home Secretary Jack Strawn who's a member of the Labor Government remarked that he empathised with our difficulty and described some of the difficulties that he had. well in the end people will always have different views about these sorts of things and I think the great bulk of people around the world who have some experience of these things will understand the dilemma which is faced by Australia.
MITCHELL:
Is there any circumstance under which you would allow these people to be landed in Australia, treated and then perhaps go to other countries. Is there any circumstance under which you would allow them to land in Australia?
PRIME MINISTER:
Our position is that they should not be allowed to land in Australia. We are in discussion with a number of countries, I did speak to the United Nations Secretary General last night. Not in the sense of calling in the United Nations but there is a United Nations dimension to this. I respect him a great deal, we worked together very closely at the time of East Timor and he's a man who I think brings a great degree of dignity and high intelligence to an extremely difficult office and I engaged him and we're going to talk again and we have a number of other diplomatic discussions and initiatives under way. We are seeking ways and means of resolving the thing consistent with our interests. Now.
MITCHELL:
If other counties will take these people will you land them in Australia and treat them and then.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't want to speculate about what might happen if other countries agree to take these people and to process them. And the key thing is that they have to be processed, they have to be assessed, they have to have their claims for refugee and asylum status assessed. What we have been arguing for all along is an international order where by people who want to come to Australia can have their case assessed and the relative merits of their refugee application assessed, that's what we're asking for. We're not saying to the world we won't take refugees, we are saying to the world we want to take those most necessitous refugee cases and we are prepared to shoulder our burden and I repeat the second most generous burden sharing contribution in the world is made by Australia.
MITCHELL:
If other countries are willing to take some of them would we take some of them from this ship?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well what has to happen in the first place is that their status has to be assessed, I mean our position is that we will always take a share of refugees, whereever they come from and irrespective of their race, I repeat that irrespective. And I'm concerned that there have been some suggestions in some of the commentary about this which has been critical of me and the Government that there's some element of racism and there is no element of racism because we take people from every where in the world. If they have a case and up to the limit of our quota, I don't mind where they come from, I don't mind what their religion is, or if they have no religion, we cannot have a situation where people can opt to come to this country without going through some kind of refugee assessment. And as a nation we are entitled to say that to the world and that is what I'm defending.
MITCHELL:
You have spoken, you have attempted to speak to the Indonesian President several times and as yet have not, is she avoiding you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'm not saying she is but she's not yet been available to speak to me.
MITCHELL:
Does that surprise you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, not entirely. I don't, I felt from the very beginning, this is based on knowledge of Indonesia's position and Indonesia's attitude that it was going to take a great deal of persuasion to get them to take these people back. I mean I believe that they should have been returned to Indonesia because that's where they came from and they left Indonesia on an Indonesian vessel with an Indonesian crew and they were.
MITCHELL:
But you don't have any great hope that she will.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the indications are very plain that Indonesia doesn't want to have them back. I don't think Indonesia's justified in taking that attitude because these people came from there and they were allowed, I mean people are passing through Indonesia, I mean the flow is from middle eastern countries to Malaysia to Indonesia and then they get on boats and leave Indonesia and sail for Australia. I mean that is the normal pattern. Now I'll endeavour to in different ways put our view to Indonesia and we've done that and the two Foreign Ministers have spoken at great length but the question of whether the President chooses to speak to me is a matter for her. It doesn't completely surprise me and I'm not going to overreact to it and I don't think anybody else should put any great significance on it at the moment. Plainly they're not inclined to take this boat. I've suspected that from the very beginning and I think most people who have observed the scene would know that even those who, like the Opposition, have been calling on things to be resolved with a telephone call which is unrealistic would know that as well.
MITCHELL:
We do know of a situation where Indonesian officials are quoted as saying that they will use if necessary their Navy, they will use war ships to turn this ship away, now isn't that something that needs to be addressed?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't know whether that's true, I'm not going to react to that. We have established quite a good basis of discussion with Indonesia over the past few months and I'm not going to react to that.
MITCHELL:
Is this a good sign of Australia's friendship with Indonesia though, when there's an issue such as this and the Indonesian President is unavailable to discuss it with the Australian Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think you have to understand that our relationship was fundamentally altered a couple of years ago over East Timor, I think everybody knows that and I don't, of course, apologise for anything we did there. We did absolutely the right thing. But we're now in a situation where plainly our relationship is different and I don't think we should have unreasonably high expectations but, equally, I'm not going to overreact every time I see something in the newspaper because that will only make it more difficult to slowly build a more positive relationship.
MITCHELL:
Does the instruction for the Tampa to leave Australian waters still stand?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes.
MITCHELL:
Is it correct that the Arunta will arrive soon, has on board a crew which could, if necessary, take over the Tampa and sail it out of Australian waters?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the Arunta is arriving in the area quite soon. As to what might happen in the future regarding the movement of the Tampa, I don't want to comment.
MITCHELL:
If the Tampa leaves Australian waters under any circumstances what does it achieve, if she just leaves the waters and sits there just a little bit further out, what does that really do to solve the situation?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, from a long-term point of view what is needed is an arrangement for the people to be taken somewhere and processed and having their refugee status determined and that country can't be Australia for the reasons I've outlined because they don't have any right to be in Australia, and that's generally accepted that they don't have any legal right to be in Australia. The point you ask is whether the Tampa going outside our territorial sea line, what does that achieve? I think that demonstrates a point about the assertion of our sovereignty over our territorial sea line or territorial seas. But I don't want to get into speculation about what may happen in the next day or two in relation to the Tampa.
MITCHELL:
Do you accept that what the shipping company says that the Tampa is not seaworthy to travel with this number of people on board and it would, in fact, be dangerous?
PRIME MINISTER:
I get conflicting advice on that and I heard some reference to that conflicting advice on radio this morning. I have varying advice on that.
MITCHELL:
Does that concern you? Surely that's a key to it, whether we are requiring the ship to travel when it is not safe.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, my advice is that nothing we've asked of the ship thus far has been unreasonable or unsafe.
MITCHELL:
Is the hunger strike continuing on board?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm told not and I'm also told that the medical condition of the people on board, in all the circumstances, is quite good.
MITCHELL:
Do you believe the Captain has been lying to the people?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I can only say this, that all of the information we got after the ADF doctors went on board regarding the medical conditions was quite different from what the Captain represented. There weren't 10 people unconscious. There were four people with dehydration, eight or 10 with light sprains and one with what was called a mild fracture - none of them needing medical evacuation, all of them treated by the doctor, adequate medicines, adequate medical supplies now on board to meet all of their requirements.
MITCHELL:
Is the main priority in your mind the health and welfare of these people on the ship or if not, what is?
PRIME MINISTER:
We have a number of priorities and one of them is that. The other one is to protect Australia's borders and to defend our right to decide who comes to this country and in what circumstances.
MITCHELL:
Do you expect this to be resolved - well, I'll go back a step. When this emerged on Monday, did you expect it to continue this long and now do you expect it to be resolved within days or is it really a long-term.?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I always thought that it would take a while to be resolved. I never thought it was something that was going to be resolved overnight and I think it's important, as I speak now, for people to understand that it's not necessarily going to be resolved in the next 24 hours.
MITCHELL:
You've got, Prime Minister, overwhelming support from the Australian people at this stage. Did you, when you were making decisions at any stage, give consideration to the political benefits involved?
PRIME MINISTER:
No.
MITCHELL:
You're being accused of doing that.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I know that. I mean, some people are even saying I'm going to call an election at the weekend. I mean, how ridiculous.
MITCHELL:
Will it effect the timing of the election in any way?
PRIME MINISTER:
No. Can I say, I mean, people have been constantly asking me about the date of the election and I've said all along it's going to be towards the end of the year. I mean, surely as each week ticks by people will ultimately accept that I've been telling the truth on that all along.
MITCHELL:
Well, true but I don't think there's any question you are now probably immensely more popular than you were a week ago and it must be politically tempting to say, well, let's cash in on this and call an election as soon as possible.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I'm not calling an early election.
MITCHELL:
More in a moment.
[COMMERCIAL BREAK]
MITCHELL:
Naomi, go ahead please.
CALLER:
Yes good morning Neil. Good morning Mr Howard. I would just like to say that I am in shock about what is going on. I think that the Government is going around this entirely the wrong way. I believe that the polls that have been shown in the...the recent polls that have been shown in the media are a wrong indication of how the rest of the Australian population feels. 122,000 can't speak for 20 million.
MITCHELL:
Thanks Naomi. Do you wish to react Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I can only say that I'm not doing this on the basis of opinion polls.
MITCHELL:
Linda, go ahead please.
CALLER:
Hello Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes.
CALLER:
I think you are the most intelligent Prime Minister we've ever had. I support you and keep up the good work, and I pray for you to make the right decision which you are making at the moment. Make them go back and come back the right way like we did.
MITCHELL:
Thank you Linda.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
MITCHELL:
Bob, a quick message from Bob. Go ahead Bob.
CALLER:
Mr Howard, possibly a win win situation. I think with the United Nations assistance to process the refugees in the normal manner through Christmas Island, continue the dialogue with maybe Indonesia. But accumulate the costs and the refugee processing and just deduct it from the foreign aid program so that at least they get the message.
MITCHELL:
Foreign aid to Indonesia Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think it is in Australia's interest to continue to give foreign aid to Indonesia. There's a lot of criticism of that. In the long term we want a stable relationship, productive relationship with that country. One of the difficulties of course is inherent in your observation of sending the rest home, they came through Indonesia. That means we don't have return arrangements with Afghanistan and Iraq in a way that we have return arrangements for example with China. And one of the reasons we don't have return arrangements with those countries is that it's very easy for people to leave those countries and go to countries like Malaysia and Indonesia.
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister, do we know anything about the people on board the Tampa?
PRIME MINISTER:
Where they've come from?
MITCHELL:
Well where they've come from, who they are, what they are, what their backgrounds are?
PRIME MINISTER:
We only have very sketchy information. I would imagine we'll be accumulating a bit more information but we have to be rather careful about the extent to which we engage them about their histories and backgrounds for certain potential legal reasons.
MITCHELL:
The what, gives them some rights some how?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I just don't...
MITCHELL:
You're not allowed to talk to them?
PRIME MINISTER:
No it's not a question of allowed. It's not a question of being allowed to talk to them but we have to take those sort of things into account.
MITCHELL:
You don't want to go any further on that?
PRIME MINISTER:
No.
MITCHELL:
The people smugglers, now I've spoken to people in the Afghani community, I've seen reports of one people smuggler ringing a radio station to give a view. We seem to know who they are, where they are and what they do, and they're not in this country. Why are they not dealt with?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well perhaps there's a lack of will in other countries to deal with them.
MITCHELL:
Indonesia specifically?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't want to exacerbate a difficult situation. But the reality is it's fairly easy for people to move through certain countries and that is the problem and that is one of the reasons why there is rising resistance in Australia and understandably so because they feel that this country's generosity has been taken advantage of.
MITCHELL:
I think there is also perhaps a rising frustration about the international criticism. I think it's a bit rich for countries like Indonesia to criticise Australia and call us inhumane.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think any country that accuses Australia of lacking warmth or accuses Australia of inhumanity over this issue is being wrong and unfair and hypocritical because our record, I mean I repeat - we're the second most generous country in the world. We took more Indo-Chinese refugees in the 1970s and '80s after the collapse of South Vietnam and the changed circumstances in that area, we took more than any country in the world on a per capita basis. Even more than the United States. And we've had an incredibly generous record and we'll continue to be a generous country. But people have got to have their claims to come to this country assessed on merit. You can't have people pushing their way to the front of the queue particularly based on a capacity to buy their passage to this country.
MITCHELL:
Is there not another element to it if this ship somehow lands and the people they stay in Australia distinct from being sent to other places, does that open the precedent I suppose for other ships sailing around the world to pick up people and charge money to bring them to Australia. Is that one of the issues not just for...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I mean the issue of border control is at stake and what we are doing with this not only is to deal with a practical situation but also through it to send firmly, politely but firmly to the world and those involved in this, that we are not a country of easy destination and we will within the law and in a humane way take steps to protect our borders.
MITCHELL:
Do you fear this is provoking perhaps some racial reaction within the Australian community?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't offer any aid or comfort or benediction to them. I mean anybody who's using this issue to attack people of Middle Eastern origin and so forth, I repudiate that utterly. I want no truck with that. That is no part of the Government's handling of this issue. I despise that kind of reaction. That's got nothing to do with our reaction. It would be the same irrespective of where these people came from.
MITCHELL:
The Opposition Leader will be on this program at 10:15. What do you want him to do? What should he do?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I would ask him to abide by the observation he made only two days ago when I announced that the SAS had taken control of the ship. He said the last thing the Government wants at the present time is a negative carping Opposition. Now he didn't have to say that but he did say it, and it's probably in Australia's national interest if he sticks to that. He did take the opportunity having said that a few hours later of saying I was courting the One Nation vote, I was playing wedge politics and by implication fanning racial sentiment in the Australian community. I'm doing no such things. I don't find this an easy situation. It's very challenging. But I'm not going to abandon the responsibility I have to the national interest.
MITCHELL:
Thanks very much for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.