Subjects: Welfare system; McClure Report; Work for the Dole; Indigenous
Literacy and Numeracy Program; indigenous disadvantages; mandatory sentencing;
UN report; Korean Veterans' Function.
E&OE .............................................................................................
LIEBMANN:
Prime Minister, good morning to you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Steve.
LIEBMANN:
This McClure report, is an interim report you get the final report in
July, but do you have any quarrel with the broad approach it's proposing?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don't have a quarrel with the broad approach it is taking
as an interim report, but we not committed to any of its conclusions and
we'll have a look at the final report. Can I just pick up one thing
in that report we've just seen that is really quite wrong. Work for
the Dole, mutual obligation, is not an American concept, it is an Australian
concept. Work for the Dole was not borrowed from the United States, I
don't believe in the United States' approach to welfare. The
American approach to welfare is to knock people off benefits willy nilly,
and many of those people do turn to crime and literally be begging in
the streets for food, I will never support something like that in Australia.
But I do support in Australia a system that says you help people who need
help, but if they're able to, it is not unfair to ask them to put
something back into the community. Now that is the Australian way. You
know I am not interested in comparisons really, it is an Australian way,
and I think we have got it about right.
LIEBMANN:
Can you guarantee though that if your Government accepts the broad thrust
of the final report that no Australian will be worse off, and that includes.
No, no, no and that includes . . .
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that is a terribly hypothetical thing. Look what I can guarantee
is that this is not an exercise to cut welfare.
LIEBMANN:
Right.
PRIME MINISTER:
I saw Wayne Swan, and no doubt Mr Beazley will be out today, saying you
know you are going to cut welfare. The Labor Party and others have been
saying that for four years, we have now been the Government for four years.
We kept the social security safety net intact, we've looked after
the needy, but we have in the interests of the broader community required
people, particularly those looking for work, to put something back. And
I think Work for the Dole has been a stunning success.
LIEBMANN:
Well it is being suggested this morning that if you accept the proposals
that it could add, talking of putting back, it could require the Government
putting in another $50 billion a year, annually. Are you prepared . .
.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we're not going to be putting another $50 billion in annually
and I don't know who suggested that. It sounds crazy. So, let me
knock that over. Look we will continue to provide a strong social security
safety net. All we have is an interim report, it is a recommendation to
the Government, it is not a Government decision. We will get the final
report and then we'll announce our responses, but we have to be courageous
enough as a community to make sure our welfare system is modern and contemporary.
You're balancing two things. People want the needy looked after,
but they don't want an explosion in welfare. And what we've
tried to do, and what this report is designed to do in a modern, contemporary
way is to achieve those two goals.
LIEBMANN:
You're today going to announce a new indigenous education program.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I am.
LIEBMANN:
And some are suggesting it's a clever way of getting your Government
off the hook in light of the mandatory sentencing controversy.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I will tell you what it is. It is what I call practical reconciliation.
The real problem of the indigenous in this community still remains that
they are disadvantaged compared with the rest of us in things like education,
health and job opportunities. And reconciliation to me is all about removing
that disadvantage. And look the reason why indigenous people are disproportionately
represented in the jailed population of Australia, whether it is in the
Northern Territory or elsewhere is partly due to that disadvantage. So,
instead of talking about rolling back the criminal law what you should
be talking about is attacking some of the reasons why there's so
many of them proportionately in jail.
LIEBMANN:
Ok, so long term, most people would acknowledge, long term this initiative
that you're announcing today could keep young aboriginals out of
jail, but for now mandatory sentencing is not.
PRIME MINISTER:
But you can say that in relation to the whole of the criminal law. I
mean those people who say that mandatory sentencing is racially based
because proportionately there are more aborigines caught up, well you
can say that about the whole of the criminal law because of the disproportionately
large indigenous population in jail. What you've got to do is not
roll back the criminal law, what you've got to do is try to remove
the disadvantage. Now we are making progress and one of the things I'll
say today is that there are too many negative stories about indigenous
people. We never hear the good stories, we never learn that we have in
fact reduced some of the areas of disadvantage, and I'll be spelling
that out today when I make this announcement.
LIEBMANN:
Prime Minister, can I put this to you though. We now have seven former
High Court judges, four Appeal Court judges, at least two Supreme Court
judges, you've got former prime ministers and numerous law societies
and councils, who are calling on your Government to overturn mandatory
sentencing. You and the laws have been criticised by a United Nations'
committee.
PRIME MINISTER:
Which I think . . .
LIEBMANN:
All right.
PRIME MINISTER:
I mean that United Nations' committee is fundamentally flawed because
it is based on the erroneous proposition that because there is a disproportionately
large number of indigenous people likely to be caught up in these laws
that it is racially based. It is not racially based at all. That is the
equivalent of saying that all of our criminal laws are racially based.
LIEBMANN:
But when you've got all these legal minds, you have said you don't
agree with mandatory sentencing.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don't. There is a lot of things... I don't agree with
safe injecting rooms. But in a federation, you've got to have a system
where if the local community elects a government and that government does
something and people at the centre of government, the national government
is unhappy with that then you've got to think before you intervene
and overturn that local law. Can I just say the criminal laws of this
country have for decades been run by the states. The Commonwealth doesn't
run the criminal law of Australia except in so far as international things
intrude, but the ordinary day to day criminal law, robberies, murder all
those things they're all state things. Now I think to sort of march
in and try and overturn every individual state criminal law you disagree
with is making a bit of a mockery of federation. And I am not a fanatical
states rightist, as every premier in Australia will know, but I do think
that you've got to preserve the federal compact to the extent of
acknowledging the role of the states and the territories in these matters.
LIEBMANN:
But if in Federal Parliament, the elected representatives are expected
to reflect the views of the people who put them there and the views of
the people who put them there are anti-mandatory sentencing, surely in
a democracy they should at least . . .
PRIME MINISTER:
Well when you say they are anti-mandatory sentencing, I mean if you are
talking about that poll yesterday, and after all we shouldn't be
poll driven in these things, we should do what we think is right.
LIEBMANN:
Well there are some people who would argue that you are.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, hang on, you just said a moment ago that the population is anti-mandatory
sentencing. I mean I don't agree with mandatory sentencing, but if
you look at that poll yesterday the community is split right down the
middle as to whether the federal government should intervene or not.
LIEBMANN:
So, why not allow a free debate in Parliament.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but you can't, look that is an abdication of responsibility.
What you are really saying is that every time you've got a hard issue
you walk away from the responsibility of having an opinion and you have
a free vote. If you allow a free vote on this, you would have a free vote
on just about everything that's difficult. Now that is cowardly government.
But I know there are people who are criticising me over this.
LIEBMANN:
Yes.
PRIME MINISTER:
And I accept that. I mean people criticise me over everything. And you
know it is sort of in a sense it goes with the territory.
LIEBMANN:
So that's it, end of story as far as you're concerned?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, I believe that these are matters that belong to the states and
the territories and there are a lot of things I repeat that the states
do I don't agree with. If I am going as Prime Minister try and overturn
every single thing. I mean people are not banging on my door saying you
ought to overturn safe injecting rooms, they're not. The media's
not doing that because they agree with them, but they disagree with this
so they're banging on my door over that, yet the principle is the
same. There is a United Nations' committee that's criticised
safe injecting rooms, that have said that that is in breach of our international
obligations. Look in the end, we're not going to be told by committees
of foreigners what to do in this country. In the end it is Australian
parliaments, elected by Australians that will resolve these matters and
this increasing invitation of the views of committees of foreigners I
don't think washes with the Australian community.
LIEBMANN:
Let me fire the scattergun in the time we've got left. You mentioned
safe injecting rooms and drugs. In Victoria, one private school and maybe
a second is now talking about drug testing for students at the schools
who have used illicit drugs. Do you support that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well if the schools want to do it, I support their right. I don't
know all the circumstances but I support the right of any school to adopt
those sort of methods to try and curtail the drug problem. I absolutely
support their right to do it. As to whether it is a good thing in the
circumstances, I don't know enough about it.
LIEBMANN:
All right, and just finally, this reception for the Veterans of the Korean
War. It is getting a lot of publicity at the moment.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, well I am disturbed about that because we haven't set out to
be mean, all we've set out to do and frankly I didn't know all
the details.
LIEBMANN:
But will you pick up the tab?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'll have a look at it Steve. Please, I will have a look at
it. I mean all we're doing now we've put $700,000 into the memorial,
we've subsidised all of the functions, we are doing what is normally
done in these circumstances. I personally have had no complaints about
it.
LIEBMANN:
But it's a bit mean.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I'll have a look at it. But I haven't, nobody's
set out to be. I didn't know about it until I read an article in
the paper. Not, I didn't know a thing about it. So it is easy to
say, look the sky is the limit, you can pay for everything.
LIEBMANN:
Yes, I know.
PRIME MINISTER:
I mean really there has to be a point at which, and we have put 700 grand
into the memorial, subsidised the function, I mean OK, you say that's
mean because we don't pick up every last dollar, but there is a limit.
LIEBMANN:
Talking of looking at it, just quickly have you seen the London papers
today?
PRIME MINISTER:
No.
LIEBMANN:
I don't know whether we've got them. The headlines "Touch
too friendly again in Australia".
PRIME MINISTER:
I am glad to see the British press and the Australian press . . .
LIEBMANN:
Have got their priorities right?
PRIME MINISTER:
Is really focusing on the big issues.
LIEBMANN:
Thank you for coming in.
PRIME MINISTER:
Pleasure.
[Ends]