Subjects: Heroin injecting rooms; Internet gambling; petrol prices;
cricket; Gallipoli; tax; Jeff Kennett
E&OE................................................................................................
MITCHELL:
Mr Howard, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Neil, nice to talk to you.
MITCHELL:
Thanks for your time. Drugs first Prime Minister. Victoria's
going ahead with shooting galleries, you oppose them, very strongly oppose
them, why?
PRIME MINISTER:
Because I think they send the wrong signal, they give
a degree of acceptability to drug use, which I don't support. There
is no clear evidence from overseas experience that they reduce the drug
problem. They create local difficulties as far as the location of them
are concerned. They have the potential to attract criminal elements to
areas where they do not now go. Overall I think they say to the world
well we've given up trying to persuade people not to start taking
drugs. I think we should be putting more and more resources into rehabilitation.
I'm very strongly of the view that the weakness in the past has been
that all states have not provided enough resources to help people who
want to break the habit get the medical and psychological help that they
need. I don't think injecting rooms do that. I think injecting rooms
convey to the community a view that well it's ok lets not try and
rehabilitate lets just accept.
MITCHELL:
What do you think the effect would be if they go ahead
on the community, from the local community, what's the impact?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think a lot of local communities fear that there will
be criminal elements attracted but it's very hard Neil because we're
dealing here with a new territory in Australia, we haven't had them
before and we're now apparently going to have what four or five in
Victoria, we're going to have one in Sydney, we're going to
have one in the ACT. These rooms are not established directly in breach
of federal law but I should make it plain to the Victorian government
as I have to NSW and ACT governments that they'll get no help of
any kind from the Federal Government and if there's any kind of accommodation
required the federal government to make these work that will not be forthcoming.
MITCHELL:
Do you think that the locals- well in Victoria they've
said that the local communities will have the power of veto, if they don't
want them to go ahead they can stop them, do you think they should?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well if they feel strongly enough yes.
MITCHELL:
What about the Liberal Party in the state because the
state party could well block it in the upper house?
PRIME MINISTER:
That is a matter for them. I hope they use whatever means
are at their disposal to do so but the state parties of the Liberal Party
on these issues are free to make whatever decisions they want. I had some
difference of opinion with the former Victorian Liberal Government about
the drug issue. This is one of these things that does tend to cut across
party political lines. I think you'd probably find that some of the
Labor Premiers in other states, particularly in Queensland, Mr Beattie,
my understanding is that he's not as anxious as Mr Bracks to have
heroin injecting rooms. But in the end they all make their own decisions.
We don't have the power to stop because it's not a direct breach
of federal law but I want to make it very plain that if at any stage there's
any kind of federal accommodation required it will not be forthcoming.
MITCHELL:
Do you think though that governments could be getting
themselves into trouble as well? I mean is there an issue here of what
happens of legal protection if people do overdose in these rooms...?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't know. This is one of the many problems
that this kind of thing throws up. Presumably the Victorian government
has taken advice on that. Presumably it's decided it's a risk
worth taking. But in the end this will be determined by the Victorian
community, if they feel strongly enough about the issue well they'll
make the government of Victoria accountable, that is how our democratic
system works.
MITCHELL:
Do you think it will send a message to the world about
Australia? I mean, or is it just a state issue?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well these things are never entirely state issues but
I mean I'm not... I don't see that as being the main worry.
The main worry is the message it sends to the Australian community. We're
big enough to resolve these things ourselves in Australia, in accordance
with the laws and the practices of Australia and that includes a recognition
of the role of the federal government in certain matters and the role
of the state in others. But in the end what matters is the impact of this
kind of departure on people who are abusing drugs and people who are tempted
to do so. And it has always been my view that anything that sends a signal
of acceptability, of harm minimisation as opposed to a deterrence, abstinence
in the first place and rehabilitation, if people want to get off drugs,
I think is a mistake.
MITCHELL:
Do you think it could encourage people into drugs?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't think it will discourage them. I understand
the tragedy that drugs visit upon people and there is a sense in this
that, let's just try this and see how it goes. I don't hear
anybody making eloquent, articulate case that on the basis of demonstrated
success around the world this has worked. I mean the results of the World
Health Organisation examinations of this in other parts of the world are
very mixed indeed and in some cases very critical if you read the analysis.
But look it's a decision the Victorian government has taken, it's
got a right to take that decision, I can't stop them doing it but
they won't get any encouragement or help from the federal government.
MITCHELL:
Because they seem to save lives, do you think that's
an argument?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't think that's been clearly demonstrated
at all.
MITCHELL:
We're getting a few calls through on this. I'll
take a couple of those before we move onto some other issues. Hello Brian.
CALLER:
Yes, how are you? I'm ringing up about the injection
rooms. People...
MITCHELL:
Are you a user Brian?
CALLER:
Yeah, I am actually.
MITCHELL:
Are you an addict?
CALLER:
Yes.
MITCHELL:
Current addict, or reformed?
CALLER:
Yeah, current.
MITCHELL:
Ok.
CALLER:
Yeah, I mean people [inaudible] saying don't have
'em, don't have 'em, but like the company, people who are
using and they're using in the streets, they're discarding their
syringes on the ground, like bother what not. And like you've got
the public law about you know all this discarded syringes, there'll
[inaudible]. And then there's sort of an idea of saying well have
safe injection rooms and they're brewing about that. You know how
do you please them?
MITCHELL:
Well would you use a safe injecting room?
CALLER:
Would I use one?
MITCHELL:
Yes.
CALLER:
Personally, yes I would.
MITCHELL:
Ok, Prime Minister, reaction?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I hear what Brian says, I wonder if he, has he
tried to take advantage of any you know, rehabilitation or abstinence
programmes? Has he sought and so far been unsuccessful?
CALLER:
Yeah, but that's the whole thing -it's
not no good pumping money into rehabilitation programs and all that, and
unless the people want to be rehabilitated. I mean there's $16 million
on rehabilitation programmes.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think it is the responsibility of any society
to always provide incentives and always encourage people to break the
habit. And I mean years ago people said you couldn't by public programmes
and so forth discourage people from smoking. Now we've demonstrated
over the years, although there are far too many people who still smoke
a legal substance, that you can make an impact by public programmes, by
encouragement, by incentives and gradually changing the climate of opinion.
It's a slow process but I think that is a far better way to go. But
it's been good talking to you Brian.
MITCHELL:
Thank you Brian. Hello Nola, go ahead please. Yes,
Nola.
CALLER:
Oh, good morning Neil, I've been trying to get on
for a couple of days now.
MITCHELL:
You're speaking to the Prime Minister more than me, but go ahead.
CALLER:
Oh ok. Yes, look I'm not in favour of the injecting
rooms, I am more in favour of getting at the actual dealers themselves.
And my son was a user and he died and he would not have used them.
MITCHELL
He wouldn't have used a shooting gallery?
CALLER
No, no he would not. They believe they're invincible
they really do. He did all the wrong things, he took it by himself in
a secluded spot and he would never ever have imagined that he couldn't
have coped.
MITCHELL
Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that's very sad indeed and I agree with you
Nola that we have to try and get the dealers, we have to try and persuade
people not to start and those who are addicted we've got to try and
encourage them through the rehabilitation programs we offer to think about
stopping and then give them all the support we can as they try and do
so. That's the broad, the very broad direction of the Federal Government's
approach.
And can I say in relation to most issues there's
not a lot of disagreement between the federal and state governments around
Australia. My only real difference of opinion with this and the Victorian
government and a number of other governments is on heroin injecting rooms
and heroin trials and all the other areas we're working together
very closely with diversionary programs. We're offering a lot more
money to fund rehabilitation programs. I think the states have dropped
the ball in the past on those programs but we're putting a lot more
money into them and we hope that they increase their allocations as well.
MITCHELL
We'll take one more call on this. Marilyn go ahead
please.
CALLER
Prime Minister it's Marilyn speaking. I am another
mother who's lost her daughter to heroin. My daughter was very well
educated, very intelligent and as she said to me, 'Mum I was in the
wrong place at the wrong time. We tried all the rehab; we tried naltrexone
and she still died, she was seventeen due to turn eighteen. Mr Howard
I feel you're approaching it the wrong way, you're not giving
us parents enough support, enough learning about how to deal with our
children in these situations and it's only a parent who will go the
extra mile to save a child. I've since joined other groups and found
ways that I could have helped my daughter but at the time I rang every
drug place from one side of Australia to another only to be told what
can we do.
PRIME MINISTER:
How long ago did...
CALLER:
Nine months ago my daughter died Mr Howard. I have written
to you time and time again all I have ever received is letters back from
Secretaries saying that they will pass this on to the Health Minister,
to whoever. That's all that's ever come of it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Look I can't, you can never find enough words and
the right words to help a situation like that. I can only try to imagine
the anguish that you've felt. It's interesting in the space
of a couple of minutes here that I have had two mothers who have lost
children with diametrically opposed views and that just highlights what
a difficult issue this is. Nobody has a monopoly of wisdom. All one can
do is say what you think and argue what you believe and I have listened
to a lot of parents. I have talked to parents. I can't talk to every
parent who writes to me about these sorts of tragedies, but I can assure
the caller and all of your listeners that I have spent a lot of time over
the last few years sitting down talking to parents whose children have
overdosed. Whose children have suicided, whose children have grappled
with the drug problem and I get a different reading from different people.
You don't get a uniform view, you get some like the lady I have just
spoken to who feels that heroin injecting rooms are worth a try. You get
the other lady who was very strongly opposed to them and who had a very
strong view in another direction. Its just a very...
MITCHELL:
[inaudible] temptation. I mean it was the figures, three
hundred and fifty nine last year I think in Victoria. Things are worth
trying aren't they?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well only if you are satisfied they are not going to
make it worse. And if you are satisfied on the basis of what's been
tried elsewhere that they are not going to be made worse.
MITCHELL:
OK, we'll take a break and come back with more from
the Prime Minister in a moment.
[ad break]
MITCHELL:
Other issues to the Prime Minister in our Sydney studio.
Mr Howard Internet gambling. Now you have overruled the States and will
have a ban on Internet gaming...
PRIME MINISTER:
Can I just interrupt if you don't mind? You say
overrule and people are talking about us overriding. This is not a case
where we're using an external affairs power or some kind of overarching
power to prohibit something that the states normally regulate. We control
communications. Communications in Australia, of which the Internet is
part, is regulated by Federal Law. It's not regulated by state law.
You see people have mistakenly drawn a comparison between this and say
something like mandatory sentencing. Mandatory sentencing is something
that belongs to the criminal law, which is always administered by the
State. I mean we are not overriding, we are merely saying that we might
exercise our power to control what is on the Internet.
MITCHELL:
Ok, but all states except two want to go ahead with Internet
gambling. You don't want to, why?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well because we think there is too much gambling in this
country already. And it's far easier to stop something starting than
trying to wind back something that has been there for years. I mean that,
it's just a matter of elementary common sense.
MITCHELL:
But isn't it inevitable? It seems it's right around
the world and...
PRIME MINISTER:
Not necessarily. I mean people... that is the classic
argument put up saying that you can't ever have an influence on anything.
This country has sent a very clear signal, the community has and it's
there for the world to see that we have enough gambling opportunities
already. The attitude of some of the States on this is hard to fathom.
It is irresponsible. They are just interested in the revenue. I mean one
of these states, Queensland, the Government apparently has an interest
in one of the operators who wants the Internet licence, a financial interest.
MITCHELL:
Do you think this Internet gambling is what, more dangerous?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's just going to open up yet another avenue.
I mean Neil you know as well as I do from your life's experience
that once people are doing something, to persuade them to stop, I mean
we were just talking a few moment ago about drug addiction and how difficult
it is once people are addicted for them to stop. I mean we are talking
here about an issue like gambling where you do have problem gambling.
I am not worried about the average Australian who punts or gambles in
moderation, it's part of Australian life. Of course I'm not.
I don't have a wowser view on it but I do think that there are abuses
of gambling. There are problem gambling, gamblers and the more opportunities
you provide, the more difficult the issue becomes and what we ask the
States to do is to match, to live up to their social responsibility. Now
I thank the Governments of New South Wales and Western Australia, one
Labor, one Liberal, so it's not a party political issue, for the
attitude that they have taken and we are now going to look to the power
that we believe we have and to see if we can feasibly implement the moratorium
and then see where we go after that. But this is not a question of us
interfering in an area where the states have responsibilities. We have
the legal authority to regulate communication, broadcasting, television,
the Internet is part of it and it's not an override.
MITCHELL:
What about after that year long moratorium, do you then
try to stop it entirely or what do you do?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you have, if you have a moratorium, it can't
happen during that period of time and during that moratorium, we wanted
to investigate the feasibility of a permanent prohibition on the Internet.
MITCHELL:
A permanent prohibition?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, that's what we are looking at. I mean the question
of whether we go ahead with it, depends on the result of that study but
we are asking the States to work with us to implement that moratorium
and Western Australia and New South Wales responsibly have said yes but
unfortunately the other states have said no. I think their reasons are
unconvincing in the extreme. I mean if you think you are serious about
winding back an addiction somebody already has, but you can let a new
addiction potentially commence, I just think that is very illogical and
I am very disappointed in the attitude of some of the states.
MITCHELL:
Couple of other things. Petrol prices are soaring pre-Easter.
There is a good deal of, as you know cynicism about it, you know, here
we go petrol prices are going up. Is there nothing the Government can
do about it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the price of petrol, I think I have explained before,
I would be happy to say again, is regulated by the world price of oil
and we are influenced by that world price and it does fluctuate according
to fluctuations on the spot market.
MITCHELL:
The dot com crash as it was called this week. The problems
of the economy... are there significant problems for the Australian economy
in what happened this week on stock markets around the world?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I think you have to accept that you will have volatility
on stock markets. It's part of what a stock market is about. Stock
markets go up and down. They're built on a degree of speculation
and people investing in the hope of increases and selling against the
possibility of losses that's been there for time immemorial, we should
not be surprised particularly as we've seen over recent months a
flood of money into tech stocks and some that looked very speculative.
The fundamentals of the Australian economy Ne