Subjects: Mandatory Sentencing; Telstra; Interest rates
E&OE..................................
O'BRIEN
It is correct is it that the only change that will be made to the Territory's mandatory sentencing laws will be to lift the adult age from 17 to 18. The only actual change in the law.
PRIME MINISTER:
In the actual change of the law yes. But the operation and administration of those laws will change very significantly. To start with, in relation to juveniles, if it's a minor offence, then there is mandatory diversion by the police before the young person is charged. In relation to serious offences and the option of diversion is also there for juveniles. So whilst it is true that the provisions within the law apart from the lift in the age from 17 to 18 will not change, it is also true that the operation of the law, and this is going to be done by an explicit change to the general orders of the Northern Territory police, will be changed. This is very similar.
O'BRIEN
Is that enforceable by the way when you say the general orders of the police? Who enforces that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the police and the government for a start. I mean this is no different may I say to the much acclaimed approach to drug diversion. Remember last year we decided to put some extra money into providing diversion for drugs. The very same principle and everybody applauded it, including the Labor Party. Where we said look we'll provide money for diversionary programmes and young people rather than being flung into the criminal justice system will be given the option of going into a diversionary programme. Now this goes a step..
O'BRIEN
So when you talk about minor offences that police can exercise this discretion or minor offences and divert away from the courts, is the theft of biscuits a minor offence, the theft of textas or paper?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well on their own yes. I would say so.
O'BRIEN
Mr Burke has agreed with you on that ?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well what we're going to do, well on their own they're clearly minor offences, but what we're going to do, the Northern Territory Government and the Federal Government is that we are going to have further discussion on the definition of what this means. I mean there's a fairly common sense of agreement in police and legal services as to what constitutes a minor offence, but what this does is provide a mandatory alternative to mandatory sentences for juveniles in relation to minor offences. And in relation to more serious offences an option. Now I think it is a balanced outcome. I think it does respect the role of the Northern Territory parliament and I think that's important. And I want to thank Mr Bourke for the very sensible attitude he's taken, but it also, as it were, responds to the concern in the wider community that many in the government have felt about the impact in practice of mandatory sentencing laws on juveniles and in a very difficult situation there's a lot of things to take into account and with widely varying views across the nation I think it's a pretty sensible outcome.
O'BRIEN
I imagine that you would agree with me that under one of the absolute cornerstone principles of our whole legal system that an offence is only an alleged offence until such time as a court decides that a person is guilty. As I understand it what you're saying is that the police would determine whether there has been an offence committed without reverting to any court system and decide whether a child should then go into a diversionary programme on the basis of an alleged offence.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Kerry the principle that is going to apply here is not different to the principle that applies already in the law in quite a number of areas where diversion is invalid. Now of course.
O'BRIEN
Without the courts?
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course it gives a discretion to the police and I think that's a good thing. Because you've got to remember that anything that means that a young person is never charged means that this young person doesn't end up in the criminal justice system, or doesn't have a black mark in his or her record. Now surely the common goal of all of us, is as far as is reasonable and as is possible, is to stop young men and women getting caught up in the criminal justice system.
O'BRIEN
You've seen some of the criticisms in Tim Lester's story of what you have agreed to. The Law Council of Australia..
PRIME MINISTER:
The usual suspects I might say. Without wishing to be facetious, I mean I'd expect Bob Brown and others to criticise it.
O'BRIEN
Peter Aldwyn ?
PRIME MINISTER:
Peter Andren.
O'BRIEN
Peter Andren.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Peter has a particular Bill. He has a commitment to a Bill. But I just.
O'BRIEN
But what about the Law Council of Australia, which says that your joint announcement quote "is simply window dressing and does not substantially address in any way mandatory sentencing in the Northern Territory".
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they have a particular view which I respect but I don't always agree with. As a Prime Minister I have a broader responsibilities than just looking at the strict law. I also have a responsibility to recognise democratic opinion which has given effect to that law. The practical concern that people had was the impact of these laws on juveniles, now..
O'BRIEN:
But in the past you haven't just confined your dislike of the law to juveniles. You have previously said that you personally don't support mandatory sentencing per se. As a principal you believe the judiciary should retain discretion in sentencing in which case why confine your demands on the Northern Territory to juveniles. Why not the whole of mandatory sentencing as it applies to all offenders or alleged offenders?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I go back to where I was. The main concern was the practical impact of the operation of the mandatory sentencing laws on juveniles and we have really acted in a very significant way in relation to that by the announcement made today. Look, the broader issue of mandatory sentencing, of course I am critical of it, but the reason why we are not prepared to roll over completely the Northern Territory position is that we do have some regard to the fact there is a local Parliament there, expressing democratically the local will of the local people. Now we live in a big country and the only way that you successfully govern a large country like Australia is to recognise there are some things that traditionally belong to the local Parliament and the criminal law has always been one of those. Now there are a lot of things state governments do that I don't agree with. I mean I have said repeatedly before I don't agree, well let me finish, I don't agree with heroin rooms. Heroin injecting rooms for example.
O'BRIEN:
It's just that I think we are all familiar with that because you have said it many times.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think I have been asked some of those questions many times too.
O'BRIEN:
Well what about this question. You would agree with me that as little as one day can separate a 17 year old from an 18 year old. Does this mean that on the basis of what you are saying you wash your hands of the matter if an 18 year old, a 19 year old or a 20 year old is, ends up in prison for stealing biscuits or textas or paint or something of that ilk.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Kerry of course it's no revelation to me that one day can separate a 17 year old from an 18 year old, we all know that, but the law is based upon those kind of one day separations not only in relation to mandatory sentencing, but in relation to a whole lot of others and the idea that it's only monstrous in this area but not in some other kind of area, I mean you have to draw the line somewhere. The law from time immemorial has drawn a distinction between the responsibilities and the obligations to society...
O'BRIEN:
Except in this instance you have.
PRIME MINISTER:
Of people who are deemed to be adults as opposed to people who are deemed by the law to be juveniles. Now throughout the country, 18 apart from in Victoria and Queensland where it's also 17, 18 is the adult age. Now I don't think it's unreasonable to focus your concern on the impact of this law on juveniles. The reason we don't intervene in relation to the rest is that we do respect the federal principal. Now..
O'BRIEN:
Except the difference with mandatory sentencing as many people have pointed out is its relationship to Aborigines. And you yourself have pointed out in relation to juveniles that many of them fall into the judicial system or the prison system because of the extreme social disadvantage that they are placed at. That same social disadvantage surely applies to those who are 18, 19, 20.
PRIME MINISTER:
But Kerry with respect the mandatory sentencing laws are not racially based. If you assert that the mandatory sentencing laws are racially based, on the basis that there are more Aborigines in custody proportionately than the rest of the community, well you must also assert that every criminal law in the country is racially based. I mean that is just a false argument and it's an argument that I have heard before but I..
O'BRIEN:
Except that the.
PRIME MINISTER:
It is a false, I mean there is no evidence at all that the mandatory sentencing laws of Western Australia are racially based. I understand for example that the incarceration.
O'BRIEN:
That might not be the intent Prime Minister but what about outcomes.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I was addressing outcomes in relation to the juveniles under the Northern Territory laws and it was drawing some mild criticism in your questioning. Now in relation to these laws, there is no evidence that they are racially based. I really believe that this argument that because something unrelated to the structure of the law that because of other reasons produces an outcome that people are unhappy with that that gives it some kind of racial taint. Of course I am unhappy at the aboriginal incarceration rate in gaols all around Australia and the Northern Territory I understand is not as bad as some of the states. But the way to address that is to attack the social disadvantage and the economic disadvantage of aboriginal Australians and that is why we put such a lot of emphasis on what I've called recently practical reconciliation to try and address some of these problems.
O'BRIEN:
To Telstra Prime Minister, the National Party MPs from Queensland have been directed by their Party machine to vote against any further sell-off of the phone company. It seems that they are not taking your inquiry into phone services into the bush all that seriously?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Kerry, I'm not a member of the National Party. I'll leave statements on the internal workings of that party to my friend and colleague John Anderson. But I understand the concern of people in Queensland and people all around Australia about Telstra's performance levels. They are better than they were but they still have a distance to go. Nobody should imagine that if you keep it half-owned by the Government it is going to be better, than if it is fully privatised. It wasn't when it was fully owned by the Government. I mean, people seem to forget that the old Telecom was hardly a stellar performer in delivering services to the bush. People seem to forget that. We have come a considerable distance and we also have further distance to go. I am very optimistic that at the end of the day you will see further improvements and people will feel comfortable with the Government's policy but in the end the parliamentary wings of the two parties of course decide these matters. Our policy, the policy of the Government, the policy of the Coalition Government remains that we will privatise the rest of Telstra, subject - now this is a very important proviso - subject to this inquiry, and what comes out of it giving a thumbs up to service provision not only in the bush but also generally.
O'BRIEN:
Well, then you would want the credibility of that inquiry to be beyond questioning, yet already the chairman of the inquiry's credibility has been questioned in terms of other business associations he has. Another member of the inquiry, Jane Bennett, has been questioned in terms of the ads that she's doing promoting the GST, and thirdly, you've got in Ray Braithwaite, a former National Party MP, who at the weekend attended this National Party council and actually argued to change a resolution that was binding National Party members to vote against the sell-off. In that context was it wise for him to even be there?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Kerry, the Labor Party attacks just about everybody now who is appointed to any kind of inquiry. You would expect a former National Party member of Parliament to attend a meeting of the National Party in his home state.
O'BRIEN:
. and intercede on a resolution.. it's just that we are getting close to time Mr Howard...
PRIME MINISTER:
But you do keep interrupting when I try to answer a question.
O'BRIEN:
Well, I do try and give you plenty of time to answer them. but it's just a question of the time being eaten up.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, your questions are very long. Ray Braithwaite did not involve himself in the debate on the issue of whether or not Telstra should be privatised. He made a comment about the procedures of the National Party. Anybody knowing Ray knows he's a person of decency and integrity. The lady from Tasmania was attacked because she was involved in a proper, open and transparent fashion in a GST ad, there's nothing wrong with that. Tim Besley was appointed by the Labor Party I think as chairman of the Commonwealth Bank. They then, in Government, including Mr Beazley, had no problem about his competence. He's widely respected in the business community. I mean this is becoming a sort of professional reaction from the Labor Party. You appoint somebody and they try and slur their reputation. Now, I don't think that's very clever and I don't think it registers with the Australian community.
O'BRIEN:
As it was reported Mr Howard, Mr Braithwaite actually got up to try to change a resolution that would have, if his amendment had got up, it would have allowed MPs to vote for the sell off of Telstra. So he was seeking to intercede in a debate on the privatisation of Telstra when he is sitting on this committee which is you say, you hope, will be the precursor to be able to sell Telstra off.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Kerry I don't accept that somebody who's been a member of the National Party for 40 years, and everybody knows that, is prejudicing his independence by involving himself in debates. But even if you were to accept that, he was arguing as I understand it, that the purported resolution of the central council was unconstitutional according to rules of the National Party. Now, I think most people listening to this will think this is trivial. People will make an assessment on the quality of the report. Ray Braithwaite has taken part in productivity commission inquiries into competition policy. He's a widely respected former Member of Parliament. I just think we, all of us, just do the whole system a disservice by constantly attacking the qualifications and the reputation of people. I mean, who is competent to sit on a body if somebody who knows the bush, understands from his business background how important telecommunications is to the bush, is a senior businessman; in the case of Jane Bennett, somebody who understands the needs of rural Australia, I couldn't think of a better qualified panel and I think the Labor Party attack on it is low grade.
O'BRIEN:
Briefly, with what little time we have left Prime Minister, the dollar. We've watched its machinations particularly over the last few days but it's actually declined nine per cent since January. Does that fall disturb you, particularly dropping below the 60 cent mark?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Kerry, this won't take very long. I don't talk about the value of the dollar.
O'BRIEN:
Even when you have industry saying that they are concerned that the movement of the dollar might be affecting the Reserve Bank's decision to put interest rates up, which in turn they say is rebounding on industry and jobs?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm not going to talk about that.
O'BRIEN:
Very quickly then, on interest rates. You've had three interest rate rises in five months. How many more interest rate hikes can you embrace before they start to hurt you politically?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Kerry, the only answer I'll give to that is to say that even after the recent increases, the average Australian homebuyer is $245 a month better off than he was or she was in March of 1996.
O'BRIEN:
I guess I wonder how many more times you can say that.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I'm not going to talk about the future of interest rates. I think you know from your long experience that Prime Ministers and Treasurers, and indeed other Ministers should follow the same injunction, don't talk about interest rates.
O'BRIEN:
John Howard, thanks for talking with us.
[ends]