9th September 1999
Subjects: East Timor
E&OE……………………………………………………………………………………….
JONES:
Prime Minister, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, Alan.
JONES:
Tough times for you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but it’s a very important issue for us.
JONES:
Can you pull together a peacekeeping mission?
PRIME MINISTER:
We’ve made a lot of progress, Alan, but we’ve always said that there are two pre-conditions. You need United Nations sanction and you need Indonesian permission otherwise it is war. And no Prime Minister would likely commit the young men and women of his country to an unreasonable level of risk. People join the armed forces knowing that their lives could be at risk. Governments have a responsibility never carelessly to commit young lives to unreasonable risk. Now, we are continuing to apply the maximum pressure on the Indonesians to do one or two things, either get their own house in order – the results so far are not encouraging. In default of that we want them to allow a peacekeeping force in. Now, I know that the Indonesian Prime Minister said certain things yesterday and they were not encouraging. On the other hand, in these situations people say one thing on one occasion and then a few days later in changed circumstances they may do another. What has to happen is that no matter how daunting the task is we have to keep pursuing our objective. We have to continue to be militarily ready, which we are, in fact. We thought this might happen months ago. That’s why we got another brigade ready. And we’ve got to continue to argue with our friends that they should make a contribution. I haven’t given up, by any means, in relation to the Americans. I still remain confident that we will get at least some logistical and intelligence support and we’re continuing to pursue further report. The Canadians and the New Zealanders and the Brits have offered varying levels of support and the Secretary-General to the United Nations is reasonably confident in pursuing others. But it is difficult and there is no simple solution and I understand the frustration and the anguish of the Australian public. They are horrified at what is happening. So am I. I share that horror but I must be careful that I do not turn the horror of another country into the horror of Australian lives being at risk unreasonably. In the end, if you get involved in a military operation there is some risk, a big risk, but it’s my responsibility to ensure ultimately that that risk is no greater than what is reasonable and proper and right in the circumstances.
JONES:
Yes, I think we can dismiss that point fairly early. I mean, I think the public understands, the thinking public – Indonesia’s got 14,000 troops in East Timor…
PRIME MINISTER:
Twenty-six.
JONES:
…twenty-six out of a standing army of 240,000. We would only be able to deploy a maximum of about 3,000 troops at a time out of a standing force of about 50,000 of 23,000 combat troops so we couldn’t do that. Can I just get rid of America to start with – a very quick comment - earlier this morning, in fact about two hours ago, the American Defence Secretary, William Cohen, amongst other things said:- "we have to be selective where we commit our forces and under the circumstances this is not an area where we are prepared to commit forces." Is America no longer a member of the United Nations?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, on the face of it that’s not an encouraging statement. I agree with you. Although, I think there was a qualification in relation to the role and the sanction of the Untied Nations. But, look, the Americans have not been immediately forthcoming.
JONES:
Have you spoke to Mr Clinton recently?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I spoke to Clinton two days ago, I rang him and asked him for help.
JONES:
And did he say you’re on your own?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, he said that he would consider it. He said to me that America had a lot of commitments and they were very heavily stretched and I said to him the Australian public would expect America to be involved. I actually said to him, ‘Bill, we need the yanks in this.’
JONES:
When he asked to go to Kuwait we went.
PRIME MINISTER:
We did and we went to the Gulf. We were in Vietnam. In fact, there’s not been a major conflict this century which Australians and Americans haven’t fought together. And there will be intense disappointment in Australia, to say the least.
JONES:
Definitely, definitely.
PRIME MINISTER:
But my responsibility, Alan, is at the moment to get that outcome and not just to make comments about other people…
JONES:
Okay, well, let’s take Indonesia – four years ago Prime Minister Paul Keating announced that secret negotiations with Jakarta produced an Australia-Indonesia security treaty. He dismissed suggestions of a possible conflict over East Timor saying, "we’re not going to hock the entire Indonesian relationship on Timor," he said, "no nation is more important to us than Indonesia." Now, as the bloodshed continues, how on earth can that treaty have any validity?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it doesn’t. It’s of no relevance or use in the current situation, absolutely none at all. At no stage has any advisor of mine said, look Prime Minister, this treaty enables you to say that to Indonesia. I mean, it has been demonstrated to be an utter irrelevance in a relationship between our two societies.
JONES:
Do you feel a sense of impotency, should we have been better prepared when the whole business about independence and East Timor was being put together, should we have been better prepared so that Indonesia knew that if they didn’t support the East Timorese independence then there was a United Nations force then ready and waiting, standing to go? Should we have done it before – I mean, it’s easy to be wise after the event?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I’ll answer that and my answer is that if there had been publicly put together a United Nations peacekeeping force months ago to go in after the ballot the Indonesians would not have held the ballot. The Indonesians would have used that as an excuse not to hold the ballot. What a lot of people lose sight of is that it was a finely balanced thing for Indonesia to have the ballot in the first place and it was only as a result of persuasion from countries like Australia that Dr Habibie decided against a lot of opposition in his own country to give the East Timorese a vote. And whatever’s happened since, he deserves credit for having done that because a lot of people in his own country were against it.
JONES:
That’s it, but he’s got no clout now, has he?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, but just going back to your question which is a really important thing, because people are saying why didn’t you have this peace force up and running ages ago. If we’d have had it up and running ages ago, Alan, there would have been no ballot. The Indonesians would have said, we’re not going to be pushed around. And the only way you got the Indonesians to agree to hold the ballot was through a process of diplomatic and political persuasion and we’d have come the peacekeeping route publicly, and we can’t do those things privately, ages ago, then he would have said no to a ballot. I mean, we got ready inside Australia. The fact that we are ready now and we have troops deployed in Northern Australia is a result of the decision we took four or five months ago to bring a second brigade to a higher state of readiness. So we are ready domestically but internationally if there had have been, you know, a public display of organising a peacekeeping force, the Indons would have said, look, we’re not going to be pushed around, there will be no ballot.
JONES:
Well, isn’t it the responsibility of friends, though, to talk tough when one realises a bit of truth needs to be told? I mean, if Indonesia are a friend, shouldn’t we be saying to Habibie, listen, you made a mistake invading this place 24 years ago why don’t you blame it on your predecessors, announce a policy shift that the Indonesian invasion of East Timor was illegal, let’s do the right thing now and we’ll do the same because we made a mistake in being the country alone in the world to recognise that invasion and let’s now start again?
PRIME MINISTER:
But, Alan, realistically his decision to hold a ballot represented an enormous policy shift on his part. In the eyes of his critics inside Indonesia he did it because of international pressure. Megawati, the person who defeated him in the election, was against independence for East Timor, although she later said she would accept the result of the ballot. It is believed that General Wiranto was against what Dr Habibie did.
JONES:
Has anyone spoken to Wiranto?
PRIME MINISTER:
Wiranto is not taking any calls at the moment.
JONES:
So Wiranto is most probably positioning himself for a position of significant influence come December in the presidential elections?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don’t – I mean, there are mixed reports on that and I can speculate, as other people do.
JONES:
But if Indonesia – what I’m trying to say to you I suppose, if Indonesia know that we won’t be doing anything until Indonesia says yes and by constantly repeating that, surely we are conveying to Indonesia the impression that they can immunise themselves from international action as long as they want to and as long as they say no to some peacekeeping force coming in.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don’t agree with that. I mean, the reality is that for us to send a force in without Indonesian consent would amount to war. And for us to say we’re going to do that or to give the impression that we might do that and then not do it, would make us utterly impotent. The best thing that you can do in this situation, frustrating though it is – and I find it very frustrating but that’s inevitable – is to continue the maximum amount of international pressure. Now, it may not work and in many other situations in the past it hasn’t worked, but the alternative to international pressure is to do something precipitated and unilateral and that could cost Australia very dearly. It would not help the people of East Timor and would, in a very short period time, be condemned as being silly.
JONES:
You may be speaking to Habibie, for example, and you know, as the Prime Minister of Australia, that you are no longer speaking to the person in charge, that Habibie has so little authority. Wiranto refuses to speak to you and Wiranto seems to hold all the cards.
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan, it’s one of those situations where I think the situation bounces around from day to day and when you’re dealing with another country, a country of 211 million people, you never know – and it’s not a democracy at present – you never know the full ramifications of their political system. I can only deal with the elected leader or the chosen or designated leader of that country. I can’t go behind his back and deal with somebody else. I mean, they won’t deal with me. They will say you should deal through the President. Now, Alexander Downer’s been dealing directly with Alatas. Obviously Indonesia is in a state of political transition. There are huge changes going on. They’ve had a democratic election. Dr Habibie’s party lost the election. Megawati’s party won the election. But there’s been no change in the presidency. And obviously it’s a very uncertain situation.
JONES:
And the military get 38 votes in November out of 500 when the new President is elected, so they’ll all suck up to the military.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Alan, look, they don’t run their country the way we run ours but I have to deal with what is, not what I would like.
JONES:
Well, let me just as you one question then before you go. I mean, if an American member of the United Nations mission can be shot and if the Australian Ambassador can be shot at and the Red Cross and the Catholic Church attacked, couldn’t the assassination, kidnap of US personnel be far behind? I mean, you can’t do much worse than that.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Alan, because my remarks might be blown out of proportion, could I please not answer that.
JONES:
Okay. So, what are you going to do today?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I’m going to continue talking to all of the – I spoke to the Secretary-General twice last night. I expect to be talking to a large number of other people today and to further clarify what is happening in relation to the UN mission. My understanding is that the evacuation of the mission which had been contemplated and then not contemplated yesterday has now been put off for 24 hours.
JONES:
That’s right, but if they leave, the media leaves and others leave it’s open slather.
PRIME MINISTER:
I understand that and I find that news a welcome development because it indicates that the people on the ground want to stay, which is very admirable because the circumstances are terrible. And it also indicates that they may have made some progress on the ground in developing an understanding with the Indonesian security authorities. And there’s a suggestion that they may be making some progress on that front.
JONES:
All right, we’ll let you go, we’ll let you go. And I thank you for your time and we wish you well.
[ends]