9 September 1999
E&OE……………………………………………………………………………………….
CARLTON:
Mr Howard joins me now. Good afternoon
PRIME MINISTER:
Good afternoon Mike.
CARLTON:
And thanks for your time. I’m sure the audience much appreciates it. You have talked to President Clinton. How long ago was that?
PRIME MINISTER:
I spoke to him about 8.10 this morning. He rang me really to compare notes. I found him more encouraging about a possible American contribution to a peacekeeping operation. Clearly the Americans will provide tangible help to a multi-national force if it materialises. Just what form that help would take is still under discussion, but it was quite positive in that regard. Although I haven’t received any precise details, but there’s a lot of exchanges going on between our military and theirs.
CARLTON:
Alright, but there seems to be a very strong feeling Prime Minister that the Americans so far have been sitting on their hands and staying out of the dance if you like.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I understand that. I’ve certainly put the view very strongly to President Clinton in the two conversations we’ve had that the Australian public would not understand America not being involved given the depth of the relationship and the contributions we’ve made in the past. Now you know as well as I do that is putting it very squarely. He understands the depth of feeling in Australia about this.
CARLTON:
Does he really because I think Australians would be very hurt…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I know they would. Look Mike I’m not arguing with you.
CARLTON:
Yeah I know.
PRIME MINISTER:
Look I mean and nobody wants a solid American contribution if there is a peacekeeping force more than I do. It’s very important from a logistical point of view. And I am certain if there is a peacekeeping force there will be some American help. It’s really a debate now about the dimension of it. There is resistance in the Pentagon about troops being committed as distinct from materials and non-combatant personnel. We naturally would like to see troops, we want boots on the ground as the saying goes. That is under consideration. I found what he had to say to me this morning more positive and more encouraging than some of the other reports.
CARLTON:
Can you give us an idea of his words? I mean what phrase or sentence or words?
PRIME MINISTER:
What I said to him was that we wanted their help, we wanted their involvement, we wouldn’t understand it if they weren’t involved and he said look I fully understand that, we’re working on that, that continues to be under consideration. Now previously when I spoke to him he’d said well you’ve got to understand that we’re heavily committed here, there and everywhere and then I add to what he told me other reports that I’ve had about the attitude of the American administration. There is a difference between their agencies. The Pentagon is reluctant, the State Department and the White House more enthusiastic. Look the end game is to get them in and you don’t always achieve that end game by every time you say something about it using the most extravagant language you can muster if you understand what I mean.
CARLTON:
Yeah sure, okay. You now I gather are willing though to up the ante of Australian involvement, an initial commitment of 2,000 troops but then to more than double that.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes we discussed that in Cabinet yesterday and the decision we took was that if needed during the second phase of any peacekeeping involvement, that is the phase after independence takes place from Indonesia if it were needed, we would be willing to contribute another 2,500 to the peacekeeping operation.
CARLTON:
To total 4,500.
PRIME MINISTER:
Total 4,500 yes.
CARLTON:
All of which though in any peacekeeping force is as you constantly say, depends on acceptance by Indonesia doesn’t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
It depends on United Nations mandate. It depends on acceptance by Indonesia and we also want reasonable participation by appropriate countries. Now the indications so far are that we’re going to get that. We’ve had quite good responses from a range of nations.
CARLTON:
The impression you get I suppose and our listeners have at the moment I think, is that only the Kiwis are really solid and sticking by us, everybody else is a bit "iffy".
PRIME MINISTER:
No the Canadians have said 200. The British have said a war ship and they’re looking at other assets. The Thais have said a battalion which is in their language about 1,000. And there are a number of other countries that are positive without being specific.
CARLTON:
Malaysia.
PRIME MINISTER:
Malaysia at a what I might call other than the highest level where it’s yet to go several thousand is the suggestion.
CARLTON:
Several thousand?
PRIME MINISTER:
Is the suggestion.
CARLTON:
You’ve got to get that passed Dr Mahathir.
PRIME MINISTER:
Mike I won’t respond to that. I want their help.
CARLTON:
Alright.
PRIME MINISTER:
I want their involvement. I want the involvement of the Filipinos as well. It’s a very difficult issue this because you’re dealing with ASEAN partners of Indonesia and you can’t assume that the level of anger about what is occurring in East Timor is the same in Malaysia and Philippines as it is in Australia and if once again my end game is to get as many people involved as possible, I have to deal with them in an appropriate fashion.
CARLTON:
Are we still in contact with Jakarta at a minister level? I mean are we talking….
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, yes I haven’t spoken to Dr Habibie in the last couple of days because there’s not been a particular I suppose advantage in doing so but.
CARLTON:
John Moore can’t get to General Wiranto
PRIME MINISTER:
No that’s been a difficulty all along. But Downer and Alatas have remained in touch and although Dr Habibie’s not going to the APEC meeting, the Economic Coordinating Minister Ginanjar is going and I’ll be seeing him and talking to him. There’s no difficulty about that and it’s important that we keep open the lines of communication with Jakarta because although we are unhappy, more than unhappy we are distressed about what is happening in East Timor, on the other hand we have to live with the future and we have to try at the same time as being unhappy in doing something about East Timor, we have to keep lines of communications open with the Indonesians because in the end we have to rely on persuasion if we are to get a peacekeeping force in. The only other way you can inject force is to invade and I mean I perish the thought.
CARLTON:
Out of the question.
PRIME MINISTER:
Absolutely out of the question. That’s what makes this such an extraordinarily difficult issue. People want to do something. I have hundreds of people ringing my office saying please do something and I sympathise with all of them and I understand how they feel and I say to them I feel for you, I agree with you, we are doing everything we humanely can short of a completely irresponsible unilateral invasion which would be a suicide mission for young Australians.
CARLTON:
Well we’ve just got to point out Indonesia has an army of a quarter of a million men.
PRIME MINISTER:
That’s right and they have 26,000 in East Timor. Now I admire our diggers like nothing else but please we must understand that we are dealing with a very difficult situation and those who say willy-nilly we should hurl our army in there are living in a world of unreality.
CARLTON:
Yeah yeah, quite agree. Do you have any reports that there has been in fact a military coup in Jakarta which has sidelined President Habibie and leaves Wiranto in control?
PRIME MINISTER:
No. Our information is that whilst there’s a lot of turbulence and a lot of jockeying for position, no such coup has occurred.
CARLTON:
Perhaps a de-facto coup has occurred which has left Habibie the civilian President largely powerless in controlling the hands of the military though?
PRIME MINISTER:
I would doubt that Mike. As of this time yesterday afternoon I spoke to the Secretary-General of the United Nations who had just put the phone down from a very long conversation with Dr Habibie. The conversation had probably…he said lasted more than half-an-hour, and Dr Habibie speaks very good English so it wasn’t something done through interpreters. So that’s a fairly lengthy conversation. I don’t think Dr Habibie has been sidelined. Clearly he’s under pressure. Bear this in mind he’s the man who allowed the ballot in East Timor to go ahead, and that is now being used against him by his enemies. Isn’t it ironic. And his party of course lost the election. He would like to remain President. It is hard to see how you can not have Megawati as President, or Vice President and certainly wielding a great deal of power because her party has more seats than Dr Habibie’s party.
CARLTON:
Yeah, yeah. We cannot send a peacekeeping force without Indonesian approval. We’ve established that. So is it likely economic sanctions may be the only way really, to go to the World Bank and the IMF and so on?
PRIME MINISTER:
They are possible options. I’ve said all along they are on the table. They’re not the sort of things that produce an immediate result therefore it’s clearly more sensible to try to persuade the Indonesians about the wisdom of doing something themselves about getting things back in order. I mean there’s not a lot of sign of that but you keep….
CARLTON:
There’s no sign of it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I mean the situation is still appalling.
CARLTON:
Do you have reports of the murder of a….
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah I’ve had the reports that you mentioned in your intro which I heard. And I understand that they are well based reports sadly, and that’s an appalling atrocity if it has occurred, and appears to have occurred. Of course it’s appalling and that is what makes people feel so sick in the stomach and so keen that what can be done is done. Now you keep pushing the Indonesians to do something about that themselves and you find it hard to believe that with 26,000 troops and police in the province of fewer than a million people they can’t. And if they won’t do that then try and pressure them to allow a group of international peacekeepers in who will do what is needed to be done to protect innocent people. Now that’s our objective at the present time and what I’m doing is I’m using every waking hour I have and more, and also others, to try and persuade the rest of the world to put pressure on the Indonesians, and at the same time to try and keep open a line of communication with Jakarta because while ever you’re talking to somebody you have a chance of influencing them. When you get to a stage where somebody won’t talk to you your capacity to influence is reduced.
CARLTON:
Yeah. If we have to go the route of economic sanctions, perhaps through the International Monetary Fund and so on. That is a huge risk as well isn’t it? Indonesia’s in economic turmoil.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well of course it is and unstable. Absolutely. No option is easy and I don’t want, what I’ve just said about it being on the table to mean that we’re definitely going to do it, or that I think that it makes sense. And you’ve got to remember that there are a lot of ordinary people in Indonesia desperately poor, below the poverty line. Many of them just as poor as people in East Timor. They’re not to blame for what’s happening in East Timor. There’s 211 million people in Indonesia. And if we are becoming instruments of their being driven further into poverty then that’s not going to improve relations between the people of Indonesia and the people of Australia as distinct from the government of Indonesia and the government of Australia. And people to people links are always more important than transient government to government links.
CARLTON:
Are we going to have to review those links though? The Defence Department tells me today that there are 12 Australian Defence Force personnel in Indonesia in the moment, in staff colleges and so on. And there are 17 Indonesian students at military staff college and training courses here.
PRIME MINISTER:
That’s right. The reason nothing – quote – has been done about that – unquote – so far is that it wouldn’t make any difference to the current situation. I mean, sure, all those sorts of things will inevitably be looked at but I don’t know that some kind of knee-jerk, you know, you’re out, you’re out, you’re out, sort of reaction necessarily puts any more pressure on the Indonesian government. I mean the thing that matters at the moment, and the only test you run a proposition past, is will it be more likely, if implemented, to persuade the Indonesians to do what I’ve outlined and that’s the test. But if you’re saying to me should those things be looked at if the whole relationship is reviewed? Well when a whole relationship is reviewed you look at everything.
CARLTON:
We’re going to have to review the whole relationship.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think the whole relationship has changed quite a lot as a consequence of this. And there is….
CARLTON:
You made the point this morning that Paul Keating’s treaty wasn’t worth the paper it was written or anything.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it hasn’t been of any relevance to this situation. I mean nobody’s come to me and said look there’s a clause in this treaty that you can invade in order to get the Indonesians to do the right thing. Now, that’s the reality. And our relationship is under a great deal of strain but we can’t, as I said last night, we can’t not do the right thing for the sake of preserving the relationship. It’s better to do the right thing as you see it, the best you can, than to preserve a relationship at any cost because a relation preserved at any cost is really not a good relationship. And in the long run the Indonesians will understand that. But I don’t want a bad relationship with Indonesia because it’s in our national interest to get on well with the Indonesians. They’re next door, there’s a lot of them. There’s 211 million people. And it’s a potentially great market for Australia if their economy gets stronger and they develop a strong middle class. We have a lot to offer each other and this is tragic the way in which our relationship has been put under stress by this. But we can’t avoid the moral responsibility we have to stand up for the right of these people to determine their own future. And we are in that very difficult position that they voted overwhelmingly, and they’re being prevented. And we have to continue, frustratingly slow and difficult, and apparently unfruitful though it is, we have to keep applying pressure as best we can to either get the Indonesians to do the right thing, or if they won’t, then let somebody in who will and we will play a very major role if that second eventuality comes about.
CARLTON:
Anything less is a betrayal of the hopes of democracy we placed before the East Timorese.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well of course it is. And in the end if you have some values as a nation then you have to be prepared to some degree to stand up for those values. Now you don’t go to such a point where you suffer loss which is disproportionate to what you’re trying to gain and that would clearly be the case if we embarked upon some kind of unilateral military action against Indonesia. But short of that we have to try as best we can, and if it involves some strain on the relationship well so be it. And that is what we are now doing and there is a united feeling I find in the Australian community that we have to push as hard as we reasonably should in order to deliver to the people of East Timor what they had a right to expect when the United Nations held the ballot. And remember Dr Habibie said after the ballot, this is only a few days ago, that he accepted the result. I spoke to him last Friday evening before the ballot result was announced, and he said that if it went in favour of independence he would go on national television and say that he accepted the result. And he did exactly that. So I don’t think anybody in Indonesia can now credibly turn around and say well it was rigged and it wasn’t fair dinkum. I think it was fair dinkum, but I think it’s a great shame because if Indonesia and Dr Habibie in particular had stuck to what they said then their would have been great credit flowing to them. I remain one who praises him for showing courage in holding a ballot and it’s tragic that he’s, in a way, not been able to….
CARLTON:
Carry it through.
PRIME MINISTER:
….carry it through and to sort of get the credit to which he is undoubtedly entitled.
CARLTON:
Prime Minister, thanks very much indeed for your time and good luck.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[Ends]