E&OE……………………………………………………………………………………….
JONES:
Prime Minister, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Alan.
JONES:
Prime Minister, can I just ask you a question about something unrelated to that but this reunion of the Snowy Mountains, I omitted to mention yesterday on my programme some of the detail that I found out about later. But could you explain to us where you were and how you go there? My understanding was that this all happened, the reception and the dinner what a kilometre underground.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the dinner on Saturday night was at one of the power stations which is a kilometre underground, that’s right. And it was certainly one of the more interesting and unusually placed dinners I have ever been to in my life. It was a marvellous occasion. But…
JONES:
How did you get there?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we went down in a tunnel, we drove in. It’s an extraordinary engineering feat. I don’t think some of the younger generations of Australia, perhaps even the generation that grew up while the Snowy was being constructed quite understand what a remarkable engineering feat this really was. Because it did put this country on the map as far as engineering achievement is concerned.
JONES:
Yes. I mean, to have 158 kilometres of tunnel under the Snowy Mountains is unbelievable.
PRIME MINISTER:
It is. It’s an extraordinary achievement and a tremendous tribute to our engineering skill. And it was built…the construction started 50 years ago and it was completed in the early 1970s and it is still, in engineering terms, a marvel to many around the world and it does speak volumes for the ‘can-do’ capacity of this country and of Australia. But in a way though, that was terrific, but the personal side of it the following day when I went to a picnic at Jindabyne attended probably by 15,000 people who were some of those who had worked on the Snowy construction - men who’d come from Austria and Italy and South Africa. People who worked on the scheme and then gone back to their home country who, of course, were the great bulk of the people who worked on this scheme and thousands of them who were there were migrants who came to Australia in the 1950s. And who from all backgrounds they put aside their enmities and they joined together. And this is 40 years ago to build the mighty Australian workforce. I mean, we have been very good at blending people together than any country in the world and this was all happening 40 years ago.
JONES:
I know, it’s unbelievable. I just wonder, because you talked about infrastructure and I know your deputy had something to say about infrastructure. I mean, that was making electricity for Australia. We pour four billion litres of water everyday into the Timor Sea. Do we need another programme, and you have heard me talk about this before, to water Australia to increase the productivity of our continent as we go into a new 100 years?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I wouldn’t commit myself to a particular project but if you are saying does this country continue to need putting investment in infrastructure the answer to that is, yes it does. Now, we’re at the moment looking at the possibility of having a very fast train between Sydney and Canberra and potentially in Melbourne then perhaps even Brisbane. Now, they are the sort of projects that a country of Australia’s size on the right terms we’ll always need. The Snowy scheme captured the imagination of a whole generation. I remember hearing it being inaugurated by Ben Chifley over ABC radio in 1949 in a school classroom just before the 1949 election. And it was one of those things that captured the imagination of the community then and I think the weekend was a marvellous one. (inaudible)… for people to pay tribute to those who made it possible.
JONES:
PM, I made some comments on television this morning and earlier in an editorial comment about tens of thousands of labour environmental and human rights protesters are going to confront trade ministers from 134 countries when they gather for global trade negotiations in Seattle next month. And these are grievances against the WTO and the US group is called ‘Public Citizens’ and it’s mobilising under a banner called ‘Mobilisation Against Globalisation’. And last week they catalogued their complaints in a 229 page critique of the WTO. Isn’t it valid to argue that the rejection of Jeff Kennett is part of a national process which is at work rejecting things like national competition policy which has forced job losses on rural Australia and problems about industry deregulation like the dairy industry?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think, Alan, that’s too, with respect, too simplistic. There’s a lot more to Jeff Kennett’s defeat than that. Certainly people want a balance between economic development and human concern. They don’t want economic change at any cost any more than they want constitutional change at any cost. They don’t. They don’t want any of that. But they do want higher living standards. And what governments have got to do is to strike a balance between continuing to push a reform agenda that delivers benefits but at the same time understanding, by the same token, understanding that there are human costs in trying to balance the two. Now, I don’t want today to pass some kind of long-term reflection on the Kennett Government except to say that I think Jeff Kennett has been a terrific Victorian Premier. Victoria needed Jeff Kennett in 1992 because the State was a smoking economic ruin. It was heavily in debt, somebody had to pull it around. And whatever people may now say about Kennett because he’s been defeated, nothing can take away from the fact that if he hadn’t have done what he did then Victoria and the rest of the country would have been poorer today than what it is. Now,…
JONES:
Do you think Victorians have forgotten that or are they saying ‘yes, we know all that but there is more to life than economic well-being’?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, of course, there is. None of us in public office should imagine that the public ever remains continually grateful for us doing the right thing. It’s our job to govern well. And none of us in office should ever assume that we are entitled to be re-elected because we think we have done a good job. I mean, democracy involves ultimately going back to the public every three or four years and the public taking a decision. And the history of democracy is littered with examples of people who think they have done a very good job and have lost. And I am no exception to that. Jeff Kennett was no exception to that. Bob Carr will be no exception to that if he is the leader of the Government at the next election in New South Wales. I mean, none of us can ever say ‘oh look, things are going so well that we now have the prospect of years of office ahead of us’. I said yesterday and I’d repeat it today to vary a famous phrase, every election is an island under itself. And all of us, whether we are Labor or Liberal, Prime Minister or Premier, every few years we’ve got to front up and persuade the public again that they should give us a mandate. And it’s no good any of us imagining that because we have got inflation down and interest rates down the debt down and that there’s heavy business investment and that things are going well economically on a National front none of us should imagine for a moment that that guarantees that we are going to be re-elected. Can I say to you, I don’t. I regard the next federal election, which isn’t for another two years, as a huge challenge for me and for my colleagues to win. I do not take it for granted, I do not assume for a moment any more than I assumed in 1998 or 1996 that I had some kind of right to win. I don’t. I am a servant of the public, I live in a democracy and if the public at the next election even though they may think we have done a few good things decides they want a change they could easily do that.
JONES:
Yeah. Prime Minister, what’s the latest in East Timor? I see Major General Peter Cosgrove estimating that the total number of militia there in hundreds not the thousands. Are you convinced from your briefings there that those who were repatriated, forced into West Timor from East Timor are coming home?
PRIME MINISTER:
The indications are yes. So far - and I say this very cautiously and carefully because things could rapidly change - so far that’s the indication and so far the operation is proceeding very effectively. I think General Cosgrove and the Australians and all the other members of Interfet have done a terrific job in stabilising the situation. But it’s still dangerous and you have no capacity to predict the behaviour of the militia. But there is evidence that people are coming home. The scenes on television appear to bear out the reality that there is a greater sense of security. There’s a sense in Dili now that people can move around a little more freely and that security has been restored to the area. But there’s still the challenge of that enclave and it’s still a highly hazardous operation.
JONES:
And talks of New South Wales Police Officers will be part of an 80 member deployment into East Timor to help establish a local police force in the territory, what do you know about that? There’s going to be a massive police contingent to train the locals, isn’t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, well, part of the transition to a long-term administration is policing. And once the security situation is stabilised the proper thing is for the military to pull back and for civilian police to take over. Now, we want to help train the locals and that’s the best thing to do and we’ll obviously play a major role.
JONES:
What would be your reaction to the success of Megawati Sukarnoputri in tomorrow’s presidential election?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it’s for Indonesia to decide who its President should be but she got the highest vote and her party commands the most seats. Now, it’s still an open question as to who will end up President. I saw reports on the news this morning. I couch it in those terms because that’s all I know about it. But General Wiranto had rejected Dr Habibie’s invitation to be his vice presidential running mate. Now, if that report is true it’s quite a significant development.
JONES:
It’s also significant that the leader of the Golkar, Habibie’s party, and Akbar Tanjung may have done a deal with Sukarnoputri to secure the Vice President and therefore turn the defecting Golkar people in Jakarta [inaudible]…
PRIME MINISTER:
If there has been such a deal and by the same token if General Wiranto has rejected Dr Habibie’s invitation then both of those things would appear to very strongly support Megawati’s prospects of becoming President. But we will clearly work with whoever is chosen but let me make this comment, that from a democratic point of view her party won the most seats and that, in the end, should be a very decisive factor.
JONES:
Prime Minister, a wage case went before the Industrial Relations Commission yesterday for people on less than $400 a week to get another $24 a week. Now, I know we had a whole lot of economic arguments surrounding all that, how do you argue against someone on less than $400 a week getting another 24 bucks?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, our general approach has been to support safety net wage increases at a reasonable level.
JONES:
Is $24 reasonable?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, there’ll be a case put as to the exact amount.
JONES:
It will take them to $409 a week.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, but Alan, can I just say so we don’t get accused of something we haven’t done, since we’ve been in office we have supported safety net wage increases for the very low paid. We have not blindly opposed them. The employer groups have opposed them totally. Now, that’s their entitlement. But we have not done that. We have gone, on each of the occasions, before the commission and we’ve argued for it. So it’s not right for anybody to suggest that we are opposed to safety net wage increases. In fact…
JONES:
I suppose what I’m saying to you, though, is that at a time when we’re talking about, you know, great economic progress that’s been made in the last couple of years and building gigantic Olympic stadiums and providing aid to Bangladesh and all those countries that need it and we’re still potentially asking people to work a week in this country on $409 or less, $20,000 – a bloke can’t keep his wife and kids on that.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, he can’t and to keep a family together, if you’re on that sort of income, you need two incomes. Alan, I understand that and that is why we have supported safety net wage increases. But can I just say to keep this thing in balance that over the last three years the real wages of people in this country have gone up. Now, there are still people missing out, I understand that, but one of the things that I’m very conscious of as Prime Minister is that although over all the country is doing very well there are still people who are doing it very tough. Now, I understand that and I’m very…
JONES:
This wage increase, of course, has cut down interest rates which you’ve done…
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the interest rate has saved people $300 a month on a mortgage.
JONES:
Yeah, and they don’t pay tax on that.
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course not. I mean, that is a huge saving. That’s worth $100 a week wage increase.
JONES:
Do you find it embarrassing to have to talk about MPs’ salaries? Should that be taken out entirely of the Government’s hands?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it used to be and then the wage increases recommended were too high in the eyes of the public and it became public controversy. I mean you can never take them out of the hands of MPs. I think a lot of MPs would like that to happen. But if you – if the MPs’ salary is set by an independent body and then the independent body recommends a 10 percent increase, what happens is that the press, quite legitimately, and the public say that’s too high and they call on the MPs to reject it. So there’s never any prospect that you can take it out of their hands. This is always a problem. Alan, I’m not after a wage increase. I don’t want one. I’m on a very high income by community standards. But if you ask me the logical question, should MPs’ salaries be adjusted the same as everybody else the answer has to be yes.
JONES:
If you want good people, exactly.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, of course. It would be ridiculous to argue otherwise.
JONES:
Just before we go, did you apply for any tickets for the Olympic Games?
PRIME MINISTER:
I haven’t applied for any. I an entitled, I admit it, my wife and I are entitled to tickets for each of the events.
JONES:
We don’t mind Prime Ministers getting the tickets but you didn’t apply for any.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I haven’t applied for any.
JONES:
So you don’t know what it’s like to be rejected.
PRIME MINISTER:
I’ve heard about it.
JONES:
You know what it’s like to be politically rejected…
PRIME MINISTER:
I know all about that.
JONES:
But not Olympic rejection.
PRIME MINISTER:
But I tell you what, I’ve got a few mates who’ve spoken to me about it and I said, well mate, leave me out of it, I can’t do anything.
JONES:
All right, good to talk to you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Okay.
[ends]