Subjects: Coal miners' entitlements; Warren Entsch
E&OE................................................................................................
LAWS:
Are you there John?
PRIME MINISTER:
I am indeed. Good morning John.
LAWS:
How are you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Very well. I'm in Melbourne.
LAWS:
Are you. Does that make you well?
PRIME MINISTER:
Always. It's a great place. I've had a very pleasant evening,
and going out to open a new research facility at the Peter MacCallum
Cancer Institute.
LAWS:
It's a great city Melbourne, it's a great country Australia
isn't it.
PRIME MINISTER:
It sure is.
LAWS:
And I think we're so lucky to have diversification in cities
when you think of Adelaide with its history, and Melbourne with its
wide avenues and parks, and Sydney with its Harbour, and Brisbane
with its river and different feeling. We live in a great cosmopolitan
country.
PRIME MINISTER:
We do. And each city has its own particular lustre and appeal.
LAWS:
That's right. We were talking about these poor miners at Oakdale,
near Camden in New South Wales, and the closure of this mine leaving
these fellas with nothing. Out of work and no entitlements. It happened
before at Cobar and I know we talked a lot about it then. Can this
be allowed to continue, that the workers, the people who actually
get a business going and keep it going are fourth on the list when
it comes to getting money?
PRIME MINISTER:
Can I just say in relation to Cobar we did of course, after a lot
of chasing up at the instance of the government, get most of their
money for them. We chased the company. Now I'm having all of
the circumstances of this situation investigated. I can't at
this stage say whether or not there are any analagous circumstances
in relation to Cobar. Everything you say about the apparent inequity
of it is true. The problem is that these men's entitlements rank
behind secured creditors and others, and the question arises as to
whether the law should be changed to put them ahead of secured creditors.
LAWS:
Don't you think it should be?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well some people would argue that, and we've had a look at that.
The problem of course is that many people believe that if the people
who actually lend the money to get a business going don't have
first call then fewer people will lend money to get businesses going,
and fewer people will be employed. Now that's one side of the
argument.
LAWS:
Okay. But those people who have leant the money to get businesses
going have done so with an element of avarice. They're not donating
to charity. They've only got go make....
PRIME MINISTER:
Well no, well that is true. I mean I acknowledge that. I also though
acknowledge that anything that makes it less attractive for people
to lend to small businesses, and therefore more attractive to invest
in say, property development, will have an adverse affect on the flow
of money into small businesses. One of the complaints I have is that
it's still hard for small businesses to borrow. One of the reasons
it's hard is that it's more attractive to put into building
a block of flats or something like that where there is less risk,
and there's brick and mortar security. So that's the other
side of the argument. John, I think there's a very strong argument
in equity, but people have to understand that there is also a cash
availability argument. And some people have said what you have to
do is force companies to put into some kind of trust fund the money
that should be there to cover these entitlements. You can do that,
you can do that. The cost of course would be that many small businesses
would thereby have less money to run their businesses because I think
you realise that most small businesses, they invest every spare dollar
they've got in the operation of the business.
LAWS:
Yeah, and I understand that they are very very important. They're
the backbone of the country. But I would have thought that coal mining
was a step away from small business. These fellas are going to walk
away with nothing, and the mine says they don't have the money
to pay them. But they do apparently have money to pursue coal ventures
elsewhere.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well John, as I said at the beginning of the comments, I'm getting
all the information and I can assure that if there's been any
improper behaviour then that will be pursued. I'm not suggesting
there has been but I want to get all the information on it. And as
we demonstrated with Cobar, a fairly difficult situation ultimately
turned out to be quite good. Now I'm not saying this is analagous
to Cobar, but I'm having some investigations made. And we, myself
or the Treasurer will be saying something further about it when those
investigations have been completed.
LAWS:
I thought that worker entitlements were protected by law.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they are protected by law, subject of course to.....I mean
people have a legal entitlement to have them but if the company hasn't
got the money then they miss out. Now that's the problem. And
the only way you make certain that a company has the money is to force
the company to put the money to pay the entitlements into some kind
of separate fund which can't be touched for the ordinary operations
of the company. Now, you could do that. But that would have a very
serious effect on the cash flow position of many businesses in Australia.
I don't think that would be workable.
LAWS:
No, I understand what you're saying, and I've got to say
I've never thought of it in that light before. But it still seems
to me morally unsound that the fellas, and it's not much fun
being a coal miner.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, John, I agree with that and that's the reason why I'm
saying to you, and through you to the public that I'm not sort
of indicating that nothing can be done about these things in the future.
I think this is a problem. I think it's a problem that's
been thrown up very sharply by a number of cases and this is the latest
one of them. Peter Costello at the moment is talking with the States
about changes to the law to prevent company restructuring to avoid
obligations. And once again if there are things that have occurred
here that involve that well we will use every available means to see
what we can do to get the money for the men. But I sympathise with
them very much, and I think it throws up a real, I guess, clash of
interests. On the one hand the moral entitlement of these people is
their money, but also the practical considerations that are involved
that if you have an iron clad arrangement so they can get the money,
the cost of that in terms of small business capital could be significant.
And that's the trade off in a sense you've got to provide
for.
LAWS:
Yeah. One tends to look at the underdog, and in this case it's
the worker.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, and these men are the underdogs. I accept that.
LAWS:
And already, for sale signs are appearing on houses, and then families
are shattered. And I know you wouldn't like that anymore than
I like it.
PRIME MINISTER:
None of us like that and that's why we're talking about
it.
LAWS:
Who's going to want to buy a house in an area where there's
no industry....?
PRIME MINISTER:
I understand that, and I, as I say, we are gathering all the information
we can about it. I think the concerns that have been expressed by
a lot of people are legitimate and I will work my way through it and
see if we can't find a response which is fairer but also practical
and commonsense in the longer term.
LAWS:
Have you got a quiet long weekend lined up Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm going to the opening of Stadium Australia on Saturday night
to watch the soccer.
LAWS:
That'll be terrific. I thought you might have been going to say
that you were going to Warren Entsch's farewell party.
PRIME MINISTER:
No. He'll be around for a while. He's a good bloke. He's
a very popular local member. He was careless in filling out his form,
but he didn't try to cover up his financial interest and that's
the test for me. And I'll cop the criticism for sticking by him.
But unless there's evidence that somebody's tried to be
dishonest or tried to cover up their financial interests I'm
not going to sack somebody on a mere technicality. I think to apply
a ministerial code in that way is to be quite lacking in commonsense.
LAWS:
Okay. Enjoy your weekend and thank you very much for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Okay.