10 September 1999
Subjects: East Timor
E&OE……………………………………………………………………………………….
KELLY:
Prime Minister, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, Fran.
KELLY:
The 48-hour deadline for Indonesia to get the situation under control has come and gone. United Nations’ convoys are still being fired on. What is the point of making these deadlines if we’re not going to act when they expire, doesn’t that just make the world look weaker in this?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Australia didn’t put a specific 48-hour deadline. That was an approximate sort of deadline that emerged from the discussions between the Secretary-General and the Indonesian President. I’ll be talking to the UN Secretary-General again in a couple of hours time and he will then have a better assessment of the Indonesian response. Fran, everyone knows that the best thing that can happen, if the Indonesians won’t put their own house in order, is to get a peacekeeping force in there. We are ready now to make our contribution. We have a 2000-strong contribution to make and we are ready to put them in. We’ve had a lot of very good help and responses from other countries. We’re still waiting to know the extent and nature of American involvement but in the end you still have the question of whether or not the Indonesians are going to agree. If they don’t agree you have an entirely different situation. And it’s one thing to talk about a 7000-strong peacekeeping operation that goes in with the consent of the country involved, it’s entirely another thing to contemplate some kind of military operation which amounts to war against that country. Now, nobody is advocating that, no responsible person is advocating that at present and certainly the idea of Australia alone, or with very little assistance, embarking upon that course of action is sheer madness. And I hope nobody in this country is seriously advocating that course of action.
KELLY:
Well, and yet Jose Ramos Horta says that if the world doesn’t do something within a few days it will be too late. Our own Defence Minister has said that between 150,000 to 200,000 East Timorese could have been removed from the territory already. That’s nearly half the population. If we wait another week it will be all but over, won’t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, no, I don’t – well, Fran, it is understandable and easy to say that…
KELLY:
But it’s true, isn’t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, okay, let’s just take you through it. We don’t have Indonesian consent. We don’t yet have a full-blooded American participation. Are you seriously saying that Australia, in the next few days, against Indonesian rule, should mount a military operation in East Timor? Are you seriously – I mean, I think it’s important for you, as a responsible commentator, I think it’s important for your listeners who are understandably anguished about this issue to understand the implications of what is the next step if we do not get the acquiescence of the Indonesians…
KELLY:
I suppose what I’m saying and what a whole lot of other people are saying is that is enough…
PRIME MINISTER:
I would like you to focus on that because it’s very important. I mean, it’s very easy for you to use words like, it will be too late. Now, it is a tragic situation but I do want people to understand that unless we can get the consent of the Indonesians what you are talking about is war and…
KELLY:
Well, Prime Minister, that brings us I suppose…
PRIME MINISTER:
…and for Australia to take that step on its own – I mean, I’m not, as Prime Minister, willing to do that because I’m not prepared to expose young Australian soldiers to unreasonable risk. I am prepared to work very hard, as I have, to assemble an international peacekeeping force. I am prepared to do all of the things that you know that we’ve been doing and to continue to exert the pressure on Indonesia. And I share the anguish that you have and your listeners have about this very difficult situation.
KELLY:
And Prime Minister, of course, everyone knows it is difficult for a government and no one wants to send troops into a dangerous situation but I think people do want to know that the maximum international pressure is being brought to bear here, the maximum amount of what can be done is being done. And people do get upset when they hear that the US perhaps isn’t putting in as they should. The foreign ministers’ meeting in Auckland is perhaps passing a weaker declaration than they’d want. Is maximum pressure being brought to bear here and should Australia be doing things now like suspending military ties immediately, economic ties immediately with Indonesia?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, from a diplomatic and military readiness point of view Australia has done more than any other country, far more. I mean, we have, for five months, been getting ready for the possibility of a military role. I would like to see the Americans doing more and I would have liked to have seen that more by now. And we have exerted a lot of pressure on them, as you know. And I understand their Under Secretary of State has made quite a strong statement to Congress and I also understand President Clinton will be making a statement of some sorts in the next hour. But we’ll continue to push very hard on that front. And as far as economic ties are concerned, they are on the table. We’re not satisfied at the moment that going outside the military diplomatic area is the right tactic to adopt at the moment but that could change in 24 or 48 hours. As I’ve said all along, everything’s on the table. As far as our military ties are concerned there are 10 Indonesian trainees in staff colleges around Australia. Okay, you can terminate that. We haven’t decided – frankly, that’s neither here nor there. I understand the Americans have broken their military ties. I understand those military ties are worth $700,000 a year. I’d rather them publicly offer some troops and keep the military ties quite frankly.
KELLY:
What do you make then or what’s your response to Labor’s list of things that could be done to exert pressure, which include breaking those military ties? You say that’s just a small step, perhaps it’s a symbolic one. What about ending the De Jure recognition of Indonesia’s sovereignty that’s due to run out, as we know, in October, November anyway, why not take that symbolic step immediately too? And why not trigger the economic sanctions that as you’ve said repeatedly are on the table, why isn’t now the right time to take that step?
PRIME MINISTER:
As far as the De Jure recognition is concerned, well Timor, under the United Nations’ agreement, becomes independent in two months time. So…
KELLY:
So why not just take the step now?
PRIME MINISTER:
Fran, all right, well, you do that, can I tell you, the world will be exactly the same the moment after you do it. I mean, with great respect to the Labor Party, with great respect to the Labor Party, I mean, this is just trifling stuff which doesn’t really go to the main issue and that is international pressure on the Government of Indonesia to get its house in order. If you imagine that withdrawing De Jure recognition when Timor is meant, under the international agreement, to become independent in two months time, if you think that is going to move things in Jakarta, well really, the Labor Party should get serious.
KELLY:
Okay, well I guess the question then is what is not trifling pressure? And I know you have been asked this a million times in the last week and it’s a difficult question to answer but what is the maximum thing the world can do?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the maximum thing the world can do is to assemble the greatest number of countries of influence who are telling the Indonesian Government to stop the violence. And if the Indonesian Government won’t stop the violence then allow in an international peacekeeping force that will. I mean, that is…
KELLY:
But hasn’t that happened, Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, it hasn’t yet. I don’t think the Americans have yet put as much pressure on as we would like. I don’t think other countries have put as much pressure on as we would like. If everybody had put the same pressure on as we have I believe that there may, and I only say may, because it’s always difficult to predict, there may have been a better outcome by now. I would like to see more pressure exerted. I’ll look forward…
KELLY:
What would you like America to do?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I would like America to make it very plain internationally that Indonesia should have an international force. I would like the President to be saying that directly and publicly to the Indonesian Government. And I think that would amount to an enormous amount of pressure. But Fran, you must understand in a situation like this that if you can’t persuade by argument and diplomatic pressure a government to do something you want it to do, in the end if you really still want it to do that the only resort you have left is force. And that is a very grave and serious step for a group of countries to take. It is an even graver and more serious step for a country such as Australia to take. And the idea that we would act essentially unilaterally in a military fashion is madness and it has been from the beginning. And I just want the listeners who I know feel very strongly about this and I sympathise with it. I feel strongly about it. I’m anguished. I think the behaviour in Timor has been appalling and there has been a breakdown. And although the situation I’m told this morning is, to use your phrase in your earlier interview, somewhat less negative, it is somewhat less negative, it is still a long way short of being anywhere near satisfactory. Now, we have two alternatives. We either keep our heads and calmly and determinedly and in a calculated way build up pressure and if that doesn’t work we then decide what we as an international community together must do. But I know it’s natural for people to say to the Government, do something, that something must not, in all common sense involve the unilateral use of force by Australia.
KELLY:
John Howard, thanks for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.