E&OE....................................................................................................
JONES:
Prime Minister, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, Alan.
JONES:
Prime Minister, an amazing set of economic statistics - profit
share of GDP goes up, growth in real wages and salaries, salaries
have increased nearly 10% after inflation, domestic inflation less
than 1%. These are extraordinary results but are you worried about
the level of debt?
PRIME MINISTER:
Alan, I'd be more worried about the level of foreign debt
if our capacity to re-pay it were not much stronger than it was
a few years ago. I mean, one can afford a large loan on one's
house if one has the capacity to re-pay the loan but if one doesn't
have the capacity to re-pay the loan then one can't afford
such a big loan. Now, our capacity to re-pay is much better than
it was a few years ago because our economy is going a lot better,
it's more productive. And the other point I'd make about
the foreign debt is that a lot of it is a direct result of our exchange
rate having gone down. When that changes over time some of that
debt will disappear. But it is a very manageable foreign debt and,
of course, what makes it even better is that we have such a strong
domestic budget surplus. And the Treasurer will be announcing the
mid-year economic, or releasing the mid-year economic review later
today. And that will show just how strong the Australian economy
is and how we have put the fat on the bones of the Australian economy
so that even if there were not such a good picture in some parts
of the world next year then the Australian economy would continue
to function very well. This is a very strong economy. It is the
strongest it has been for more than 30 years.
JONES:
And when you were Treasurer to Prime Minister Fraser you never
ever used the word debt because there was none 21 billion,
I think - now, 233 billion. At what point do we get confused? The
maxim then was, if you got your debt to 5% of GDP someone would
knock on your door. There's talk that next year, for at least
six months, it could be 6%, is that a worry?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, well that's the current account which is a different thing.
Well, Alan, a current account deficit of 6% would be a worry if
we had a budget deficit and we had high and rising interest rates
and we had high and rising inflation. But if you have record, or
almost record low inflation, very low interest rates, you have a
budget in surplus, you have an economy growing very strongly, then
a 6% current account deficit for a period of time and I'm
not sure that we'll reach that figure is imminently
manageable.
JONES:
All right. Let me just go to a thing and I don't want
to canvass that anyway with you in detail this morning because it's
the wrong time of the year but I did want to canvass with
you, as you know, this Christmas story, the awful conundrum about
employment, Austral Pacific, Australia's largest bus builder.
I might just canvass again the issues. It has 65% of the local market.
It's collapsed with debts of $50 million. Seven hundred people
around the country to be out of work for Christmas but no long service
leave, no annual leave, no sick leave, no superannuation. How can
workers put aside part of their wage for these things, sick leave,
holiday pay, long service leave and super, and then when this happens
get absolutely nothing, they just get unapologetically dudded?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that shouldn't happen and that particular case is being
investigated right now by the Department of Employment and Workplace
Relations. I understand and agree with your expressions of anger
about workers being dudded. I don't want any workers to be
dudded and that is why, for example, we encouraged the Australian
Securities Commission to pursue the company that had been responsible
for Ashanti. And, might I say, 85% of their entitlements have now
been recovered.
JONES:
Sure, should have been 100.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Alan, sure, but 85% is better than zero. And I want to say
that there is no excuse and people who are responsible for dudding
workers in the way that you have described won't get any sympathy
at all from this Government. In the meantime those workers, let
me confirm, are entitled, if they meet the normal criteria, to unemployment
benefits.
JONES:
I know. It's no consolation.
PRIME MINISTER:
It is no consolation.
JONES:
Let me just tell you that employees I'm now talking
to you, really, with all the authority of the prime ministership
employees at Revesby of this company have been informed by
their superannuation trustee that the superannuation guarantee charge
payments are five months in arrears, the voluntary contributions
deducted from the employees after tax earnings have not been paid
into the super fund for the last three months. Now, everyone would
have thought that employee entitlements from superannuation are
sacrosanct.
PRIME MINISTER:
And, of course, this company as I am advised was trading quite
profitably.
JONES:
Well?
PRIME MINISTER:
And so, but Alan, I repeat that there is an investigation being
carried out. I understand the results of one part of the investigation
will be available on the 23rd of this month, which is
two days before Christmas. I am very much aware of the sense of
injustice a lot of people feel about it and quite properly so. And
I can assure you that the laws that are applicable in this area
will be fully enforced.
JONES:
But maybe, Prime Minister, the laws aren't adequate. Why shouldn't
company directors be made liable at law for any deductions made
from an employee's wage for superannuation, health funds or
whatever that don't find their way into the employee's
pocket? If the money then is used for other purposes that's
theft.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, where fraud occurs they are already liable at law. I'd
like to just take on notice, as it were, your suggestion of personal
liability in all the cases you have cited because that might involve
some removal of the principle of limited liability which lies at
the heart of our corporation law.
JONES:
But just go back to the first principle. You know that millions
of Australian workers do say: well listen, I'll take $400 a
week, I could have got $500 but I'll take $400 because the
rest of it you'll make up in long service leave and all the
rest of it. Now, even at Ashanti they are only getting 85 per cent
when their entitlement is 100. And this lot...now, I had the
Manager at Revesby who are, in fact, viable and they are telling
me that their profits are being transferred around Australia and
he's tried to say to me, thank you Mr Jones, have a happy Christmas
and then burst into tears on this programme. I mean, why should
people have to cop this at Christmas time?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, you shouldn't. And, Alan, let me say this that we have
got an investigation being carried out at the present time and I
hope out of that justice is delivered to the employees. If there
are further changes to the law that are needed well of course the
Government will have a look at that. I don't have an inflexible
view on it but I just can't on the run say: yes, we'll
change the law and do this and do that. I want to understand all
the ramifications of it. But, in answer to your question is an Australian
worker who has something like a superannuation provision deducted
from his salary, is he entitled to feel that that will be safely
dealt with and if it's not those responsible for fraudulently
dealing with this will be punished. The answer to that question
is, yes he is entitled to feel secure and yes he is entitled to
feel that if somebody behaves in a fraudulent fashion they'll
be dealt with.
JONES:
Yes, I mean, I am told that the health fund contributions have
not been paid into the health fund.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that is unacceptable, completely unacceptable.
JONES:
Should any company funds, just in principle, should any company
funds or any profits be allowed to go anywhere until all obligations
to an employee have been proven to have been met?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, if you are asking me should money deducted to make provision
for employees be exclusively dealt with in that way the answer is
yes. I am just not quite sure of all, off hand, of all of the ramifications
of saying yes to your exact question. Alan, you are a very good
cross-examiner which is your job - fair enough. But I have also
got to be, you know, I can't just say a flick yes or no to
everything because there may be implications.
JONES:
I understand that. We need to check whether the law is.....
PRIME MINISTER:
I respond in goodwill.
JONES:
Thank you, I understand that.
PRIME MINISTER:
I respond in complete goodwill to what you are saying. It is an
outrageous position. I do understand and sympathise with the workers,
they have every right to feel as though they have been dudded. And
we are having it investigated and if there are changes that should
be made to the law they will be made.
JONES:
Okay. Well, you won't mind if we keep.....
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don't, I don't mind.
JONES:
.....because there's 700 people and it's an awful
predicament. Just a couple of quick ones. Delegates from all over
Australia at great expense met for a constitutional convention.
You said that whatever resolution was reached at that convention
would go to a referendum.
PRIME MINISTER:
That's right.
JONES:
What do you say to those people now who know that that referendum
couldn't possibly succeed and want to change the proposal before
it goes to the referendum? Will the Prime Minister be saying to
the nation: listen, we have the convention, this is the proposal
it will go to the referendum?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Alan, I am honour bound to do that because that's what
I told the Australian people.
JONES:
You did.
PRIME MINISTER:
And I don't intend to depart from the commitment that I made
at the convention. I said I would....I made one commitment at
the end of the convention and to fulfil the commitment I made at
the beginning. And that was that if a clear consensus emerged around
a particular model then that is the model that would be put. Whether
I agreed with it or not is beside the point. I mean, I made my own
position clear. I believe our present constitution works very well
and that remains my view. But there are a lot of people who don't
have that view and we had an election promise before 1996 that we'd
have a convention and if a clear consensus emerged I'd put
that to the Australian public. Now, I intend to keep that promise.....
JONES:
The proposal which emerged from the convention will go to the referendum?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes. I am not going to alter it along the way because I'd
be breaking the commitment I made.
JONES:
Well, you have just saved a million and one headlines and a few
trees can stay in the ground and not be cut out because there is
a powerful force out there on the republican side who seems to suggest
that because they know what they then approved may not win the support
of the Australian electorate, that somehow along the line between
now and the referendum that can be changed. You're saying it
won't be.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, what I am saying is that the model that emerged from the convention
will be put to the Australian people and they'll be asked to
vote yes or no to that because that's the commitment I made.
JONES:
Absolutely.
PRIME MINISTER:
And there can't be any mucking around with that.
JONES:
No backsliding?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, there can't be because I made a commitment, I made it
to a convention at great expense as you say these people were gathered
from everywhere. I expressed my own view, there are people in my
party who have a different view from me on that. That is fair enough,
the Liberal Party in accordance with its tradition on issues like
this is allowing a free vote because we are mature enough to handle
a free vote on something like this. My own view is known. I have
promised the Australian people I will put that model, and I am not
going to change the model, but I am going to put it to the people
as I promised I would.
JONES:
Thanks for your time. Have a good Christmas to you and your family
and a happy new year.
[ends]